SomethingSavage

That's not even what I said though. I said both sides' loyal fanatics could be equally annoying. I'm completely removed from the twitter nonsense. But, even just knowing what I know about Dave's attitude and approach to his own twitter account, I find it hilarious that he and his fans are now crying about harassment and being bullied. Ultimately, I'm not really bothered by any of it. I don't listen to Bruce for factual accuracy or journalism. And if anyone is, then they're doing it wrong in the first place. Listen for the storytelling, the Vince perspective, and some laughs. Conversely, I'm never going to seek out Meltzer for ANY of that. But, if some monumental news were to break, then yeah. I'd maybe turn to Dave for the latest developments or something. See there? Both can serve a separate purpose. You should pretty much know what you're getting from either side by now.

A trope that never appears more ridiculous than that one episode of Raw where Austin gets arrested for attacking the nWo, only for Hogan to literally attempt vehicular homicide on The Rock later in the hour... with zero legal consequence.

I'm blissfully ignorant to wrestling Twitter happenings, so I'm unaware of whatever Bruce's fanatics are doing to bother people. But let's not even pretend Dave's fanatics are any better. There are pockets & sections of the internet where "critics" still take Meltzer's every word as gospel and will deliberately hang on his every written word and match analysis, to the point that their own reviews are basically just regurgitated, parroted copies of whatever Dave claims he saw. Both have their loyal fan base. So Bruce's fans may actually believe that the Red Rooster wasn't a rib, and Dave's faithful may actually buy that Omega vs Okada is the greatest match that has ever happened anywhere. That could be equally annoying. But some of us *can* cut through the bullshit and just enjoy the useful stuff we get from them anyhow. This is a day-to-day social skill most people should exhibit, to be perfectly honest.

I still to this day love listening to Cornette. I agree with most of his philosophies and ideals regarding wrestling and the "way things OUGHT to be." But it's weird. Because there are a lot of cases where my idea of talent or skill and his (mostly regarding modern workers) couldn't be further apart. But when it comes to sharing stories from the good old days or just general discussion about how wrestling should work, I could listen to Cornette all day over just about anyone. But yeah. Everyone comes with their own prejudices, their own biases, their own slants, and on & on. Everyone is only ever going to give THEIR side of any given story. That's life. That's human nature. You're not going to find anyone that simply delivers 100% undeniable truth. Might as well go with the guys that you enjoy listening to, in that case.

True. Hard to believe that was nearly 7 years ago, but the match itself was everything Starrcade 97 could have been from bell to bell. The post-match was magic. Great moment. Hogan had the crowd in the palm of his hand all over again, and I still remember getting legit chills when a beaten & bloodied Hogan ripped off the white shirt & hulked up that night.

The List stuff was fun enough, but I haven't enjoyed Jericho this much since the 2008/09 run. To each their own, I know - but watching Jericho go into dangerous invading gaijin mode is incredibly entertaining to me. I don't get all the preconceived hate for Okada/Omega either. Like, I'm not nearly as high on their series as Meltzer or anything - but do people realize they aren't obligated to watch every match from every promotion that's ever put out in the history of ever? If it goes 120 minutes, then yeah. Bash it. But hating it BEFORE it actually happens is just... Bizarre. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do. If it goes long, then I'll watch the finishing stretch and that's it. If it's kept in moderation, then I may watch the whole thing. Either way, I'm not getting genuinely upset about any of it. Nobody's forcing anyone to watch stuff. If you don't like it, don't watch it. But the world will not end if you fast forward through 20 minutes of filler in a wrestling match, I assure you.

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What's the general run time of these episodes? I may have to scope some of these out.

Texas girls loved them some Bret and Shawn back in the nineties. I remember being at several shows where girls would go 'nanners for both of them. I distinctly recall this trio of girls literally stepping up onto their chairs on the row right in front of me and my family. They were jumping up and down in their seats, screaming like crazy. It was basically like seeing a troop of thirsty groupies at a concert or something.

Appreciate it. Found them. Looks like they run a little less than 10 minutes each, so this definitely works for me.

Bruce is entertaining, and he provides a unique perspective - it's pretty much the closest you'll get to having a sneak peek into Vince's mind & how it works. Yes, he puts the WWE spin on most things. But that's the point. People want to hear the Vince answer. They want the explanation as to why these decisions were made. If Bruce just shrugged and said, "Yeah. You're right. Everything we did sucked. I'm not sure why we did that." about everything, then that's dry and boring as fuck. Nobody wants to listen to that. But when he starts defending Vince's philosophies and making excuses for that mentality, then things get interesting. That's discussion-worthy stuff. Is he working alot of the time? Sure. But isn't everyone? Meltzer does whatever he thinks is going to generate interest in what he's selling, too. That's just the nature of the beast. Bruce isn't 100% correct on all things. But, ya know, Dave isn't either. Cornette explained it best whenever a fan submitted a question to him about Bruce's bullshitting. Keep in mind, Corny is a good friend of Bruce, but even he stated that Prichard is the sports entertainment of podcasts. He will tell the truth if he can, but he'll also defend the legacy he built there and basically shit on anyone who challenges or threatens that. I like listening to him enough to keep doing it. I don't need him to be 100% factual or 100% upfront about every little thing. That's not why I listen. I listen for the entertaining stories, and I listen for the Vince perspective.

WWE is doing a series about guys' former identities on the indies before they came to WWE. The first one I saw was about Seth Rollins and his Tyler Black days, which means WWE is doing a better job promoting ROH's history than ROH does. Sounds interesting. What's that series called? Is it Network exclusive or what?

I will say this though - as far as things I hadn't heard before, Credible did mention that he was "assigned to" HBK during his first championship reign. He then goes on to say HBK was as heavy a drug user as him, suggesting that's why Shawn's eyes are crossed. Incredible.

Wow. That Justin Credible episode sure was... something. It was almost legitimately uncomfortable to hear - sort of like getting stuck somewhere late at night and listening to someone you barely know ramble on about their bad luck and feel sorry for themselves. I don't know. It was just kind of a depressing conversation - the kind I would normally turn off a few minutes into it, but I was driving and just stuck with it. For starters, Credible sounded tee totally hammered. He was slurring his words, making bizarre remarks about people & things, constantly putting himself down in hopes of scoring any kind of a compliment, etc. It was just awkward and uncomfortable all around. It's even more unsettling for anyone who recently heard his appearance on the Austin podcast recently. He sounded clean, sober, and filled with a renewed sense of optimism. He mentioned being 90 days sober. He sounded humble & hopeful there. Here? He's talking about how he fell off the wagon on Mania weekend. And he sounds increasingly trashed as the interview wears on. I don't know where his head's at, but you get a good idea that he's not doing so well at the moment. It's a shame, too. Addiction & substance abuse is something that's very real and very close to home with me, so I love hearing stuff like Del Wilkes speaking about overcoming his issues - or Shane Douglas basically exiling himself for a cold turkey detox off Oxycontin - but this was basically the opposite end of that spectrum. At one point, Credible literally breaks down crying and says, "I just want people to like me. That's all I've ever wanted..." All things considered, it's among the strangest wrestling podcasts I've ever heard. I'm still not quite sure what I think of it overall. But my first, natural reaction is that I'm just left feeling really, really uncomfortable by it.

I'm going to be on "wait & see" mode with this one for awhile - let the eps stack up and see how they're generally received first. I have a lot of time to kill with work, commutes, and the gym. So there's a chance I'll end up listening - but I'm really hoping it's not just a one trick pony. In some sense, I'm glad they're addressing the nWo right away. I just hope it's not one of those deals where every topic & every conversation keeps coming back to that. I want a specific discussion about Glacier and Mortis. What about Sullivan/Pillman and later Sullivan/Benoit? The rise and transformation of DDP. The political landscape with Nash as booker. The negotiations with talent - everyone from Jericho and the Radicalz to Bill Goldberg. The future plans for the Fusient deal, etc. It's too early to judge anything, to be fair. But I'm always hesitant with Bischoff.

Do they mention the idea of the Shawn post-concussion stuff being a Watts concept? I'll probably give this a listen (in mp3 format) one day this week. There's alot of overlap between stuff they've already covered on the podcast in the past & what they've done so far on the Network. Initially, I thought I'd skip these altogether. But the shorter run times coupled with converting them to mp3s for on-the-go consumption means I'll probably be checking them out anyhow. I've got plenty of time to kill each week between commutes, long shifts, and the gym. Is there a reason you haven't checked out the show up until now? There are some older eps that offer plenty of insight and some really fun stories.

Going through this years after the fact, I grew a fondness for what I ended up calling Double J Specials. Once you get the point that the gimmick is gonna be a hundred runs-in and will end up with one, or several, guitar shots, it actually is fun to watch because it also lacks the pretentiousness of the WWE main events of the time (those overlong pseudo-epic by Trips & others). Yes, it was goofy as hell, but as a fan of the old Dog & Pony Show by Raven, those matches could be plenty fun when Jarrett was working hard. And I got a kick out of trying to guess when the lethal guitar shot was actually going to happen. I actually look forward to Jarrett's comeback in late 2008 now. Maybe I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but I always heard good things about the stuff against Angle (funny thing how real life was involved there too). That being said, it seems like every time TNA delivers a classic (Angle vs AJ at Hard Justice), Russo gets annoyed and tries to book the worst stuff possible. So instead of letting the issue rest, the two weeks of TV following the big PPV match had Angle vs AJ in gimmick matches. Classic Russo dumbfuck booking (sadly, it's the entire card that gets really poor booking at this point too, is August 2008 the beginning of the end of what was a pretty damn good year for TNA ? With Gail and soon Christian leaving, it has to be a pretty severe blow.) The 2008 baby face run is okay. The two matches with Angle are quite good, with Jeff working really hard in the role and busting out some dangerous desperation & hope spots. They aren't too polishes or pretty, but they hold up. I remember one of the finishing stretches falling apart toward the end, but I can't recall if it's the BFG bout or the Genesis rematch. The story itself is a little wonky, with Jeff being embraced & welcomed back as the Founder - but of course it's TNA, so they book Kurt (the heel) to overcome all these obstacles and jump through hurdles to "earn" the rematch. It's not terrible, but it does ultimately bring things down a little. Even better is their 2011 feud though. Jeff puts it ALL together, and the obnoxious husband/wife act with Karen is top notch shit. You get MMA Jeff, which transitions into the power couple stuff later. The series of matches he has with Kurt that year is a tremendous run. They build from month to month, with each finishing stretch playing directly off the one that preceded it. There are stakes, there are gimmicks, there are stipulations, and they're all really fun. I remember the Lockdown cage match having at least a half-dozen close calls that'll have you biting & buying as the finish. Hell, they even manage to make Chyna's comeback in a mixed tag into something fun, by way of Karen doing her best to channel Stephanie and get her comeuppance. That whole series is the dog & pony "Double J special" you talked about on full display. Great point about the payoff. I was just thinking in terms of the matches, but yeah. You're right. It was all tied up nicely with the satisfying payoff in terms of its story.

Oh, for sure. When I said the original Kane saga, I meant all the hype and buildup from April '97 to the Mania 14 match. It fell apart for me after that. All the partnerships/betrayals and constant changing of the back story really killed my interest. I *do* think he's almost underrated as a comedy character though. It's sometimes hard to tell because their concept of humor is so fucking awful, but the Team Hell No stuff was especially good and actually enriched by his involvement there.

Yeah, it's a bit odd. But the Kane saga was a really big deal back in the day. Hokey as all hell? Sure. But, for whatever reason, people dug it. The episodic nature of it all meant it had some sense of tension, drama, and anticipation attached to the whole thing - enough that they were willing to overlook all the campy supernatural elements at a time when the business model was mainly leaning into the "realism" stuff. It's odd, but it's what happened. As far as Taker angles go, I'd actually rank it among his best. Faint praise, maybe, but still... With Bruce, I don't know. I think it's a combination of things. He gets along with Glen as a person, he felt like he had some hands-on contributions with laying the foundation of the character, and he has at least *some* personal affinity for the name going all the way back to Taker's debut. Plus he named his kid "Kane", right?

My previous post, before the original topic was moved here to this thread... I've also heard Ambrose talked about here & there in recent years. Every bit as much as Roman, really. But Rollins though? Is that a thing, too? Never would've guessed. I realize I'm not the demo or whatever, but the guy looks ratty af.

Ryan Ward? That's the one. Thanks. Whatever happened to him..?

The last time I consistently watched any WWE, it was strictly SmackDown from the beginning of the new brand split up through that Mania when the Bray/Randy shit took over the show. And then they were ruined with the shakeup. Wasn't there another key writer involved with SD throughout that time though? I know Road Dogg was still in the creative mix (and getting most of the credit at the actual time), but I *know* I've heard another name tossed around in retrospect. Former NXT writer iirc..?

I remember even the most popular girls at my school talking Kidman on Tuesday mornings back in the day.

Even better are the 4-5 minute countdown videos on YouTube. Takes me approximately 10 minutes or less & I'm all caught up on WWE for the week. Catch the occasional PPV event or cherry pick the best matches from those cards, and you've got a winning strategy to remain a fan without sacrificing an absurd amount of your free time.

Planet Jarrett was one of those things that was terrible in its time, but it actually holds up better in hindsight. It was hurt by a few factors - namely Jarrett being so closely associated with the stigma of dying days WCW, but also by wrestling fans being sick to death of tyranical heel reigns on top. They were getting it simultaneously with both Jeff and Hunter at that point. But, looking back, there were alot of instances where Double J was definitely doing WWE main event style matches better than Triple H. When Hunter occasionally got it right, he nailed it. But when he did the try-hard routine too often, it came across REALLY badly. Jarrett at least kept his matches shorter. They were still overbooked, bloated, frenzied fights packed full of plunder. But they were almost always fun and easier to absorb. I could still see people shitting on the finishes - almost always reverting back to a Jarrett win, naturally - but even that feeling of disappointment has eroded away over time. Looking back, I find alot of his matches from that time period to be really enjoyable. Should Monty Brown been made champ or whatever? I mean, sure. But damn if Jarrett/Christian wasn't a fucking blast, with Christian coming in and deflecting every attempt at interference from AMW and Gail en route to capturing the belt. There's plenty more, too. Jarrett/Rhyno brawls, the Jarrett/Styles exchanging of the belt, the Jarrett/Raven series - all of these featured some fun dog & pony show main events that threw everything out there and exhausted almost every trick in the book. None of that stuff is winning MOTY honors (or even MOTN on some of those cards), but I still believe they hold up better than you'd imagine. The Planet Jarrett stuff is certainly better than the reputation it tends to carry.