GOTNW

I have him in my top five right now and he's only going up.

Unless something is clearly worked (like Takada's fights) MMA isn't a factor for me. Though I'd be very interested to see how this would turn out if we counted MMA as wrestling.

This match caught me completely off guard. I thought it was pretty much perfect and have no problem rating it that way. Classic start with the rudo jumping the tecnico, I was expecting a guy named Kung Fu to throw shitty fake karate kicks but instead he stomped the shit ouf of Atlantis with awesome looking kicks. Then there's Atlantis' comeback which is just punching the shit out of this douche, wrecking his head on the corner post, slamming him on the floor, all great stuff you'd want in a luchas de apuestas match. There's a great moment when Kung Fu grabs Atlantis' mask and almost rips it in half, it looked amazing and Atlantis running to the back to fix it was an amazing detail and the narrative was concluded in the post match where Atlantis viciously Snapmared (believe me that's possible) Kung Fu and tore off his mask. If someone can point me to more matches where Atlantis beats the shit out of people I could see him skyrocket on my GWE list.

Some that spring to mind: Shinya Hashimoto vs Riki Choshu-NJPW 10.8.1991. Kawada vs. Misawa Champion Carnival 1997 Ohtani vs Mochizuki Super J Cup 1995 Akiyama vs Yone (2007? I don't remember) Sugiura vs Takayama 2009 Masakatsu Funaki vs Hideki Suzuki 2015

Kazushi Sakuraba http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30443-minoru-suzuki-vs-kazushi-sakuraba-njpw-wrestle-kingdom-9-010415-uwfi-rules/?hl=sakuraba http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/14716-kazushi-sakuraba-naoki-sano-vs-joe-malenko-yoji-anjo-uwfi-072295/?hl=sakuraba&do=findComment&comment=5633581 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30318-kiyoshi-tamura-vs-kazushi-sakuraba-uwfi-vs-war-052796/?hl=sakuraba Makoto Hashi http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25877-jushin-liger-vs-makoto-hashi-noah-navigate-for-evolution-030604/?hl=%2Bmakoto+%2Bhashi http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25878-jun-akiyama-makoto-hashi-vs-takeshi-rikio-kotaro-suzuki-noah-encountering-navigation-042504/?hl=%2Bmakoto+%2Bhashi http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25910-jun-akiyama-vs-makoto-hashi-noah-encountering-navigation-040305/?hl=%2Bmakoto+%2Bhashi Masanobu Kurisu http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/17351-atsushi-onita-tarzan-goto-vs-masanobu-kurisu-dragon-master-fmw-texas-street-fight-040190/?hl=%2Bmasanobu+%2Bkurisu http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/17237-atsushi-onita-vs-masanobu-kurisu-fmw-battle-brave-021290-barbed-wire-match/?hl=%2Bmasanobu+%2Bkurisu http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/17592-riki-choshu-kantaro-hoshino-kuniaki-kobayashi-kensuke-sasaki-shiro-koshinaka-vs-animal-hamaguchi-super-strong-machine-tarzan-goto-hiro-saito-masanobu-kurisu-njpw-062690/ Togi Makabe http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25769-jushin-liger-minoru-tanaka-shinya-makabe-vs-super-delphin-takehiro-murahama-tsubasa-njpw-2nd-judgment-121400/?hl=makabe&do=findComment&comment=5652939 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25761-jushin-liger-shinya-makabe-vs-koji-kanemoto-minoru-tanaka-njpw-amazing-091200/?hl=makabe&do=findComment&comment=5652041 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25955-yuji-nagata-vs-shinya-makabe-njpw-070607/?hl=makabe Kohei Sato http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/18959-dylan-reviews-full-shows-in-this-thread/?p=5566272 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25094-daichi-hashimoto-vs-kohei-sato-zero-one-010114/?hl=%2Bkohei+%2Bsato http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25947-yoshihiro-takayama-hirotaka-yokoi-kohei-sato-vs-kazunari-murakami-shinjiro-otani-takao-omori-zero-one-011907/?hl=%2Bkohei+%2Bsato

Misawa simply rolling out of the ring to express weakness and peril was my favourite part of 6/9/95 just because it was so out of character.

Jetlag have you seen this? It's not really a match that's about Satomura per se but it rules. The contrast in how much Marufuji sells for Satomura vs. how much Suzuki sells for Kana is highly amusing.

Those are all great tools but plenty of wrestlers have all of them and still suck. Transitioning, match structure, struggle, selling etc. are much more important.

That's really not true. He drew great as champion. The novelty of New Japan's resurgence has worn off, the quality of the product has dropped and the booking is the worst it's been since Lesnar was champion probably.

I can't believe no one's challenged this yet it's complete bollocks. You have exactly two Flair-Steamboat matches at *****. You don't even have Wrestlewar at ***** let alone their matches from 83 or the 90s. Misawa and Kawada have had 16 matches on tape out of which only one didn't take place between 1992 and 2000. All of them are badass. I can't even begin to describe how toxic it is for wrestling watching to come into matches expecting a ***** match but you're attacking an all time great feud based on nothing. At least form a consistent opinion before making claims this ridiculous. You brought him up like five times in your original post. Come on.

She wouldn't make my list if she had another ten years on the level of the one she's currently having.

Surely you have a solid grasp on how Baba's booking works by now? There aren't going to be 200 under the radar Kawada singles matches against bizarre opponents out there. Here's some stuff that would somewhat fit what you're looking for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfsSa6Vvd5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJt7vJGP69E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQqo89L8mMo

He wasn't as consistently good in a random 6 man tag but he could chunk out a great performance whenever he wished to do so. Those are mostly all high profile bouts and every one of them has a great Kawada performance, I wouldn't waste your time with shitty recommendations. The fact he was able to carry a lot of wrestlers to the best matches of their careers in his post-peak should tell you enough. Kawada had great matches against Steve Williams and Akiyama in 90s All Japan as well. I can't exactly increase the versatility of his opposition in that period but here's a random tag match that totally rules: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMSld6lx7WM If you're going to argue that Kawada couldn't have great matches against wrestlers that aren't on the level of Misawa/Taue/Kobashi/Jumbo and then ignore examples of him doing so based on what someone else said about the whole of Kawada post-split without even giving him a shot then your argument just isn't very good.

vs Kensuke Sasaki (big Dome match in 2000 which is one of the most pimped matches in 2000s puro), then another rematch at the Dome in 2001, a match for the Triple Crown in 2007, they had a couple of matches in 2005...... vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan, 2001, one match in All Japan, one in New Japan vs Tenzan again in 2005(I think?) for the Triple Crown vs Kojima 2005 for the Triple Crown vs Morishima in 2010-they had two matches, one in the Global League which was alright and another one which was great and a total Kawada carry job vs Akitoshi Saito in the 2010 Global League vs Taiyo Kea in 2006 for the Triple Crown I can go on but basically you're wrong. Some of these guys are better workers than others but none of them are top 10/20/30 or even 50 ever.

Ikeda. Full stop.

Urgh no. It could also be argued that Triple H's (and Stephanie's) presence is a big part of why Rollins isn't taken seriously as a world champion. Sure, the booking isn't very good, and he probably shouldn't have been in that position in the first place, but they haven't helped.

Jushin Thunder Liger vs Satoru Sayama-NJPW 1.5.1994. An exhibition match with a ten minute limit-you know how those end. Glimpses of this were really great (Liger's Abisengiri, the slap-punch exchange and Sayama avoiding a shoulder block by just walking away) but it looked like they were too tentative to create something that would be more than merely good. It was completely devoid of conventional drama and had almost no highspots so I can't see traditionalists liking it much. I was curious how Liger would do in a strange environment like this, the grappling was fine but Sayama reacting to Liger's wacky takedowns made the match for me. The drama present here was based on whether a takedown would work or not which was solidly designed and executed and kept me entertained. ***

I really have no desire to argue about the quality of those matches and it wouldn't get us anywhere(and my point was never about their quality fyi). I just don't see what's so impressive about Flair's stamina in them that makes it unmatched in wrestling history.

Satoru Sayama vs Yoshinori Nishi-LUMAX CUP 13.10.1995. This was an "exhibition match" that took place during a shoot tournament. I always thought worked judo would be an amazing form of pro wrestling and this is probably the closest we'll ever get, they still used leglocks and punches/kicks but wore gis and fought on tatamis. Nishi looked really great in this, his kicks were wonderful (there was a great counter spot where he sweeped Sayama's legs with one) and his flying armbar looked devastating. Sayama managed to get a flashy escape in without it looking silly and they did a variation of the spot where both guys grab a leglock and then roll around until they fall out of the ring which looked really cool in a different environment. It doesn't go long and is definitely a good use of your time if you enjoy shoot style, at least for how bizarre it is. A pretty neat find. ***-***1/4

While I was watching Sasha-Bayley from the latest Takeover I finally realised how it works. Actually I kind of knew it all along but I managed to truly transform the intangible into the tangible. There is a certain vision of pro wrestling that used to exist in the US. A very masculine, misogynistic, racist version. Whatever insults you want to throw at it.......it deserves it. It never truly went away. Even just a few years ago there were bikini contests and such. You don't even need to go that far-you can look at how women are treated on WWE's main programming right now. NXT differs from that. A lot. Even back when Cesaro-Zayn and Paige-Emma were the featured matches you had them both end in a post-match hug. Women are featured in a vastly different role, given personalities and aren't treated like sexual objects. They've started main eventing. After the last few Takeovers the NXT "epics" have really formed an identity of their own. What's really important now is putting over everyone involved in the match, ignoring everything established in kayfabe and making sure everyone gets the crowd to chant for them positively so they can hug, take pictures with each other and talk about how great and revolutionary NXT is. And also HHH and Stephanie have to be there so they can take pictures with everyone too so we can see how awesome they are. Everything is super pc, everyone rules, everything is great. The only real opposers of this coming to life are the smarky male Full Sail fans that will chant shit at Corbin/Eva Marie etc. NXT has used this wildly different approach to, essentially, become wrestling for girls. That's why the crowd demographic has started to change, that's why the sleaziness has been reduced and that's why we'll probably see kayfabe-breaking post match expressions of affection for Will to shit on for years to come.

Satoru Sayama vs Tiger Mask IV-BJW 25.7.1995. This was short and a really great Sayama carry job, his kicks looked beautiful, he performed a couple of great looking takedowns and punches the shit out of his protege when he was in a position that allowed him to do so. There's a really cool moment where TMIV goes for a wheelbarrow leglock and Sayama tries to quickly block it by grabbing TM's foot an pressing his stomach/chest with a knee but doesn't execute it fast enough and gets caught in the leglock regardless. A lot of really cool escapes and grappling are displayed here, well worth your time if you're into the style. Sayama also reversed a ful mount into an Armbar and it reminded me of a judo escape I'd have learned by now if life hadn't killed my enthusiasm for practicing martial arts. Oh well. I'll get back into it. ***-***1/4

You're reading too much into it. That's where the storytelling comparison stems from. Yes, I said Flair put no thought into "strategy". I'm not saying Flair didn't put any thought into his matches, I'm saying he didn't put any thought into creating the illusion of strategy. It's a very simple and consistent argument. That's just an analysis of the layout of Flair's matches. Your argument is good but your phrasing is ridiculous. Yes. I watched a bunch of his matches vs the Von Erichs and his matches vs Luger (one you gave five stars and one Parv gave five stars) and I honestly can't come up with a better response other than "lol" I'm sorry. The Windham matches were more workrate-y but also largely uninspiring, even in that department. I just saw matches that went long. I'm sure I'll rewatch the Steamboat matches six years from now and offer something constructive regarding them.

I listened to like 20-30 minutes of this (maybe more? I don't remember) and then switched to the discussion about the japanese WON HOF candidates. A few comments: 1)Who was the podcast aimed at? I mean I totally understand if you just felt you wanted to talk about how great one of your all time favourites is but did anyone actually make an argument Flair isn't an all time great based on his lack of psychology that you think the podcast could sway? I mean if there's a bunch of folks here that have been around forever and have fully formed opinions on the guy, criticise him for these things yet rank him as a top-20 all time wrestler. 2)The discussion about strategy in Flair's matches was pretty ridiculous, seemed like the pretentious blabbering you get from HHH and Shawn Michaels about "great storytelling" and something Flair obviously put no thought into. Of course you can talk about impressions and explanations of his work. Being able to explain why and how something worked in the context of time is great but just because something is logical doesn't necessarily mean it's going to translate to great art. 3)As expected you brought up the matwork=psychology point which seems like a really lazy undermining of Bockwinkel's fans but the idea someone isn't a worker with good psychology because they don't use x amount of matwork is mind boggling in the first place. 4)Praising Flair's "cardiovascular conditioning" or however it was phrased as unmatched in wrestling history is also far-fetched. You compared Flair to the All Japan guys and said they didn't work at the same pace. That may be true, but that's ignoring 1)them taking much bigger and more visually impressive bumps 2)moving at a higher speed than Flair and using spots that require more strenght 3)All Japan matches weren't workrate sprints. There are also whole genres based on this (joshi, lucharesu) so I can't but into the idea Flair was the best workrate wrestler ever.

NOAH never pushed Akiyama as the ace. He was their #1 heel. He took Kawada's place.

JAPW 6/7/2002: American Dragon vs. Low Ki This was a submission match that would've stylistically fit right into Battlarts, hence its inclusion here. The great thing about early 2000s indies is that they could've done an amazing experimental match like this because there weren't really any indy tropes established at the time. They go out of the ring and use some pro-style offence but about 90% of this is based on grappling and struggling for submission attempts and escapes. They don't shy away from using any holds-they didn't whore out their finishing subs but they really played up to the fact that every hold is escapable in the pro wrestling universe. It made me wonder what they'd use to finish the match. The finishing sub came out of the blue and looked amazing and Danielson's use of the suplexes in the stretch was very Otsuka-esque. Pretty fascinating to watch as you get transitions from lucha submissions into rear naked chokes and such preposterousness. I could see some criticising the (lack of) selling in the closing moments but it didn't bother me as I'm used to that in shoot style and here it was clearly a stylistic choice. ****1/4-****1/2