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I understood your book just fine. There was another book I had responded to earlier to that was listing everything under the sun as selling. Such is life, I guess, when people try to affix their own meanings to words with commonly accepted definitions. Anyway, it's a needless redefiniton operating on the fallacy that people view wrestling only in terms of offense and selling. There is no "offense/selling duality". These were just two (of many) aspects of wrestling listed in the opening book, and no one tried to make them into anything more than that. Well, except for the people who tried to turn selling into more than it is. If you want to write a treatise on how everything a wrestler does falls into two categories, acting and reacting, power to you. Please don't call it selling. That word already has a definition. (I'm kind of worried that people don't take posts on wrestling message boards seriously enough, so I've decided to categorize them as books so that they get regarded with the importance that I think they deserve. Sorry about any confusion this may have caused.)

But a lot of the stuff being pointed to as selling already falls under other commonly used categories, like psychology or acting, or offense. If you stretch the definition of selling to include anything with some sort of intent behind it, then you might as well just call it "pro wrestling". Pro wrestling minus shooting, botching, and rear chinlocks where the purpose is to work out the next few spots of your match. Giving selling a more specific meaning is a good thing. It's more meaningful to say "I saw a macaque" than to say "I saw a monkey", and it's more meaningful to say "I saw a monkey" than to say "I saw a thing, it definitely wasn't a dishwasher". I also don't agree that nonselling reactions are undervalued. It doesn't seem so unusual for someone to write off a match because of cheesy acting, illogic, poor character work, the wrestlers failing to make the audience care, and on and on. Also, selling gets its own little domain because specificity in words is better and because it's what separates pro wrestlers from lesser performers like actors. I'm sure Willem Dafoe could convey the heartbreak and disappointment of losing a match, but could he convey that his knee hurts? Has there ever been a debate on which of the Stooges was best at making the eyepoke look real? It's an idea that's very pro wrestling, and that's why it has its own pro wrestling term. If you have an issue with the idea that selling is everything, the solution isn't to change the definition of selling so that selling IS everything, it's to argue that there's much more to wrestling than selling. Maybe you could vote for offense in the poll.

If Negro Casas yelling at the crowd in frustration is selling how unnerved he is, or Casas using holds in the first fall is selling how good a technical wrestler he is or how this match is a true test of skill, then of course selling is going to be more important, because it encompasses more things. That's such an expanded definition of the term that it makes it meaningless. Obviously the most important part of the wrestling match is going to be the part where you pretend it's a real wrestling match. If it's offense vs acting out pain, then I think I have an easier time envisioning a good match with weak offense and good selling than vice versa. It goes both ways, though. I've seen matches in which the selling was good but I wasn't buying it because they hadn't done anything interesting to lead to the selling.

I used to think that Blue Panther the man among rudos, but the list of really good Blue Panther matches is virtually the same as it was ten, fifteen years ago. The only new additions are matches he's had since then. Everyone else from his era has added to their resumes with old stuff that's popped up on Youtube.

Alfonso Morales narrating boxing highlights from the 1970s (not that unusual, but I didn't expect to hear his voice when watching a nonwrestling Youtube video) Also there's another boxing match where DDP was the ring announcer, but I can't remember which one it was.

That's true about the card, but it's not that different from the previous year with Perro vs Konnan on top supplemented by Atlantis vs Emilio Charles and a six man with Rayo and Kamala. Even Perro and Konnan got support from underneath. For 1992, Fiera was a replacement for Bestia Salvaje, and even then Bestia's aborted challenge for Atlantis' belt had only one match's worth of build. I don't think it was much different from the 1991 Atlantis vs Charles match in terms of being a complementary piece of the card. Love Machine generally wrestled like a tecnico during the matches but he had a bit of an edge. More than once he ripped Panther's mask off after the match, and somewhere in there was an interview with Panther that Machine interrupted with a shove and a challenge, and then they had a brawl. But there wasn't any Fabuloso Blondy stuff or even that much overt nationalism, aside from Machine being a known American who had red white and blue on his outfits. He wasn't a dud, he certainly did contribute to the feud, but I honestly don't see how what he did could have made him a star that quickly. There was appeal in seeing one of Mexico's own defend his mask against a foreigner, but I don't know how well that works if the Mexican is just a standard midcarder, especially a midcard rudo. Even Blondy went after Lizmark, Pirata, and Ringo rather than Angel Azteca, Hombre Bala, and Cachorro. I can't read the mind of anyone who was there, though. That's fair, but you posed the question of why they didn't book Panther in more mask matches if he was a big part of the massive crowd. I was just pointing out that he didn't wrestle in an abnormally small number of mask matches. He had two in 1993, and then there were a few years where he didn't really stay in one place for long enough to build one up. By the time he settled down in the CMLL it was almost five years after his last match with Machine. Rayo I brought up specifically as someone who was in big matches and then didn't have a mask match for years. Anyway I don't think he was a bigtime draw or anything. Saying he was kind of along for the ride with Love Machine shortchanges him a bit, that's all.

Think this is unfair to Panther. The mask vs mask with Love Machine drew a turnaway crowd to Arena Mexico, and that was for masked tecnico Art Barr. The people weren't there to see whether Love Machine kept his mask, they were there cheering on Panther. Barr's charisma didn't explode until he became a rudo. Also I think this overlooks that part of what got Love Machine over was that he was competitive against someone as good and as popular as Blue Panther. You really think substituting for Panther with somebody like Bestia Salvaje would have had the same result? It's possible. Might not have drawn as much as it wouldn't have been mask vs. mask but Pena had already created a string of successful gimmicks using the same formula. It depends on how popular the Love Machine gimmick was with the public. I don't think you can claim they drew a turn away crowd simply because he was programmed with Panther. If that were the case then surely Panther would have been booked in far more apuesta matches over the years. The Panther/Love Machine program was certainly successful. It drew in two different promotions and Panther certainly deserves some of the credit for that regardless of how hot Pena's booking was at the time. But it's offset by the fact that there were clear headliners like Caras, Aguayo and Konnan pulling the crowds. Panther/Love Machine is not that different from an IC title feud drawing during Hulkamania. None of Panther's other programs came close to touching it, and it doesn't really help that the matches are among his worst. I'm not saying that Panther mask matches automatically generated sellout crowds. It was a hot feud in a hot period for the company, but not every Arena Mexico show sold out. Bestia Salvaje vs Huracan Sevilla drew what was reported as a below average crowd (for the time--I'm sure it was better than some of the crowds later in the year). That was what happened when genuine midcarders headlined at Arena Mexico in early 1992. Panther vs Machine headlined what I believe was the biggest and most anticipated CMLL card that year. And Machine wasn't popular at all with the crowd. Despite being a well-meaning tecnico who'd been with the company for less than half a year, he had a packed house hoping he lost. Okay, he was an American going up against a Mexican, but for that to happen you still need a rudo the fans want to get behind. I don't think it follows that if Panther was primarily responsible for that crowd then he'd have been booked in more apuestas matches. For one thing he has as many to his name as Rayo Jr, Cien Caras, and Atlantis, and he didn't have much of an opportunity for them from 1995-97 because of the way he was hopping between promotions. As for the matches sucking, I don't see what that has to do with who was driving the feud.

Think this is unfair to Panther. The mask vs mask with Love Machine drew a turnaway crowd to Arena Mexico, and that was for masked tecnico Art Barr. The people weren't there to see whether Love Machine kept his mask, they were there cheering on Panther. Barr's charisma didn't explode until he became a rudo. Also I think this overlooks that part of what got Love Machine over was that he was competitive against someone as good and as popular as Blue Panther. You really think substituting for Panther with somebody like Bestia Salvaje would have had the same result?

Pre-1989: Lizmark/Atlantis vs El Faraon/El Egipcio 1989: Ciclon Ramirez/Huracan Ramirez II/Super Muñeco vs Pirata Morgan/Hombre Bala/Emilio Charles Jr. 1990: Aguila Solitaria/Remo Banda vs Comando Ruso/Leon Chino 1991: Centurion Negro/Black Magic/Panterita del Ring vs Negro Casas/Cien Caras/Arandu 1992: Hijo del Solitario/Blue Demon Jr./Huracan Sevilla vs Bestia Salvaje/La Fiera/Jerry Estrada (January 24) 1993: Lizmark vs Satanico 1994: Javier Cruz/Mogur/Cachorro Mendoza vs Halcon Negro/Felino/Arkangel 1995: I'm struggling I chose just one for everything before 1989 because of how rare TV shows from those years are. It feels wrong to pick a one on one match for "favorite not great matches" but there are not many three on threes from that year that left me thinking "That was as good as it could possibly have been." I couldn't think of anything for 1995, so that's where I gave up.

Satanico Nemesis: Lizmark Archenemy: Dandy Blue Panther Nemesis: Atlantis Archenemy: Love Machine Emilio Charles Jr. Nemesis: Atlantis Archenemy: Dandy

Anyone who refers to Eaton as Beautiful Bobby is crazily overrating him. I'm generally skeptical of wrestlers who aren't particularly athletic or skilled. Charisma first guys can win me over but it usually takes a while. Finding out that video of x event actually exists makes it hard for any of the matches to disappoint me. It's like closing the case on a mystery, the conclusion might not be all that satisfying but at least I know the answer. I'd rather dig and dig at certain years from certain promotions than hop around. I'm either very thorough or very picky. Specific to Mexico: - 1993-1995 CMLL being better than 1993-1995 AAA sounds good but I'm not sure if it's right. Almost every CMLL wrestler got worse when the calendar flipped over to 1993 and the promotion itself is just so depressing. - MS-1 is my favorite Infernal. - 1992 is the best year from the '90s. - Blue Panther is closer to one-dimensional than to a well rounded worker. - Arena Coliseo DF is the best setting for televised wrestling.

IIRC Bestia/Kato was good in a fun, much better than I expected kind of way. The Infernales match was just really good. I liked the six man more but wouldn't go to war over it or anything. I'm probably wrong about it being in the top ten for 1992 or whatever I said.

September 3 1994 Lizmark/Tinieblas Jr./Hijo del Santo vs La Parka/Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera The first fall was pretty fun, with Santo vs Parka, Lizmark looking good against Fuerza and Panther (although not as good as he did vs Panther in 1998), and Fuerza vs Tinieblas being kinda neat. Lizmark did his flipping pin on Panther again, which I've never seen him do against anyone else. Not much worthwhile after that. Eighteen minutes in the tecnicos were still in control, and the rudos didn't really do anything with their part of the match. Lizmark vs Parka didn't become the focus until the third fall. Their brawling was okay but nowhere near the atomicos from July. The referee who'd called their July title match down the middle was now fast counting for Parka and slow counting for Lizmark. On a positive note, I liked Lizmark's kneedrop+DDT combo, and even though this wasn't that good none of it was Tinieblas' fault. September 9 1994 Lizmark vs La Parka Anyone who follows pro wrestling knows that if a ref screws a guy over in the buildup to a big match then he'll invariably get the assignment for the big one as well. That would be kind of frustrating, with this being Parka's last shot at the belt he'd been chasing for almost two years, but it didn't end up mattering as they made no attempt to wrestle a good match anyway. Parka and his second Vulcano cheated all the way through, it was wrestled more like a mano a mano, and even by that standard it was pretty bad. You'd think they'd maybe give Parka a win where he earns Lizmark's respect after the long feud and with him turning tecnico not long after, but nope. October 13 1995 Lizmark/Atlantis/Canek vs Emilio Charles Jr./Headhunters It was between this and a tag title match between Lizmark/Atlantis and the Headhunters. I went with the one that wasn't twenty-eight minutes long. Too bad barely anything happened in it. No crazy brawling, no fun Headhunters spots besides one missed moonsault, and not even any Atlantis and Emilio interaction. Charles did take a crazy backdrop out of the ring, though. Lizmark's missile dropkick looked so good in the second fall that he decided to use it again to win the third fall. August 16 1991 Lizmark/Hijo de Lizmark/Atlantis vs Los Brazos El Hijo de Lizmark had been wrestling as "Hijo de ?" and here he revealed himself as Lizmark's son. Los Brazos gave their usual effort with the comedy and also some good bodyshots and trashtalk. Lizmark seemed to tone his performance down a bit so that he didn't take any attention away from his son. A tall man, especially by EMLL standards, Jr. had obvious athletic ability but going by this match he couldn't yet do his stuff with the speed and accuracy of a top tecnico. Nice enough match.

July 15 1994 Lizmark/Perro Aguayo/Konnan/Mascara Sagrada vs La Parka/Hermanos Dinamita There was a Parka fan club in attendance that was mostly all women. Why was Konnan dressed in stereotypical Indian garb? Although Lizmark's feud with Parka had been fairly quiet on TV, they'd been swapping Lizmark's WWA world lightheavyweight title (not to be confused with Lizmark's national lightheavyweight title, the one he'd been defending on TV) back and forth on house shows since the previous August. Their brawling here was better than it was in 1993. Through two falls this probably wasn't much better than a lot of Lizmark's disappointing 1993 buildup matches, but I focused on Lizmark and Parka so I was happy enough. Everything they did after the match came back from commercial, though, was on a different level. It was easily the best brawling I've seen from Lizmark. Even the mask ripping looked violent. Lizmark fought part of the fall looking through the mouthhole of his mask, that's how torn up it was. They spent maybe two straight minutes slugging each other on the canvas, and soon after that was broken up they were back at it on the outside. Eventually they were just holding on to each other like boxers in a twelfth round clinch. They topped that off with two long stretches of nearfalls, which was cool, although I kind of wish that after kicking out of big move after big move Parka had won the match with something a little more decisive than just a cradle. After the match Parka's music was playing and he did his stupid dance right in front of Lizmark, staring the champion down the whole time, so Lizmark winged a jab at him. As a brawl, what they did here would have fit perfectly in a big mask vs mask match, but I'm guessing that wasn't an option so Parka just got another crack at the national belt. July 18 1994 Lizmark vs La Parka During introductions, the announcer stretched out Parka's name for sixteen and then fourteen seconds. This wasn't a technical classic and was more of a title match with a violent underside to it. The whole thing felt very tense. That added to the holds in the first fall. I wasn't a huge fan of Parka's performance, though. He was a bit sloppy and at one point took a crazy flip into the ropes off a shove (clearly he was expecting a kick there), and then there was the edgy stuff he does in these matches. Some of it can be cool. I liked when Lizmark offered a handshake and Parka popped him in the face instead. But stuff like breaking holds by digging at Lizmark's mask just feels like chasing heat. In the third fall they again did the thing where Parka doesn't want to wrestle anymore and keeps pushing Lizmark away, which made Lizmark's eventual victory feel kind of anticlimactic, especially after Parka had looked like the better man over the first two falls. They'd both been draws, something you don't see often, but the first fall ended when Parka nailed Lizmark with a tope and then they were counted out brawling outside, and in the second Parka rolled Lizmark up from behind but Lizmark was able to pin Parka's shoulders to the mat too (hey, so at least he learned something from that happening to him every time he wrestled Satanico). The Observer's account of this said that Lizmark struggled to keep up in the match (there were a few brief moments when he looked tired, but I thought he gave his standard title match performance) and that Parka had broken his nose and legitimately didn't want to wrestle in the third. Either way this got a 3.25 there and that's about what I'd have rated it also. It kind of felt like they'd have been better off having a mano a mano match or something, though.

July 2 1993 Lizmark/Eddy Guerrero/Love Machine vs Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/La Parka I haven't enjoyed much of the tag work I've seen from Lizmark's 1993, but what I've watched has all been from his programs. Here he's in a backup role. Even though this match featured a lot of things that I generally hate--wrestlers pulling their opponents off the mat at two, referees falling for plainly bogus fake fouls, the Panther vs Love Machine matchup--it was still a lot better than the typical match from Lizmark's feuds. What made this work for me was that there was a clear idea of what the wrestlers were going for. Panther and Love Machine have no chemistry at all, everything they do looks either awkward or soft, but the wrestlers decided that was the focus, the rudos worked together to ruin Love Machine, and the result was something much easier to follow than the three minimatches philosophy. Lizmark was called on to enter the ring now and then and liven things up, and he was up to the task. I complained in an earlier match about Lizmark looking like a crybaby, but I was okay with him stomping Parka after the whistle here. He'd claimed a foul on a headscissors and somehow stolen the fall with that crap. Eddy also looked good here. He and Parka flew around the ring faster than any other pair could have, and he and Fuerza based some fun spots around an airplane spin. September 18 1993 Lizmark vs Satanico After what's been a truly tedious series of matches, here's the big one. Lizmark looks like a real man of the people shaking hands with all of the fans in the aisleway. Seconds were Lizmark Jr. and MS-1 (making his last appearance on TV for AAA in this run), the two best seconds possible. The holds in the first fall were absolutely terrific. Easily the best I've seen from Lizmark, way up there for Satanico. It wasn't the prettiest or most fluid display, but they put so much thought into it and made it look like a genuine battle down there. There was one spot where Satanico had Lizmark in a simple headlock and Lizmark was trying to force his head up as if he was being held underwater. So when he countered it felt like a huge swing, only Satanico immediately stretched his arms out under the ropes, and the moment Lizmark broke the hold Satanico pounced on him and had him in another one. When Lizmark countered that, Satanico again found the ropes, but this time Lizmark was obviously less agreeable about breaking. Eventually he gave in and of course Satanico was again all over him just like that. It looked like the fall would belong to Lizmark, but Satanico stole it when Lizmark tried the tapatia, which I don't think he's ever applied on Satanico without pinning himself. I liked the way Satanico started off the second fall trying for pins. It made the switch in momentum a little less routine. Lizmark got the win with a nice series of moves, and as Pepe Casas counted the pinfall Alfonso Morales was on the microphone telling the fans at home that the winning hold was the creation of the man presently applying it. That's a pretty nice way to win a fall, even if I kind of agreed with MS-1's protests about how Satanico's shoulders couldn't possibly have been down there (to be fair, I'm not sure Lizmark's were down when he lost the first fall either). That was a very nice two fall start and they may have been on the way to a great match, but I don't think they nailed it with the third fall. It wasn't a bad fall, it just wasn't the kind of closing run you get from the best matches. Lizmark got most of the offense, and when Satanico got his two counts they came off either counters or moves that didn't really compare to Lizmark's big suplexes and dives. The one thing this had that the Estrada match didn't was that this one truly felt like it would determine the best technical wrestler in the lightheavyweight division (no Jerry Estrada match could ever feel like that). In that one the drama instead came from an incredible third fall, with momentum swinging back and forth as Lizmark withstood a series of submission holds, threw everything he had at Estrada, and then once again had to survive Estrada's best shots. There was no point in this fall at which Satanico posed a similar threat to Lizmark's title reign. As a comparison, both matches featured the spot Lizmark does where he misses a headbutt and tumbles outside the ring. Estrada followed that up with a tope that really put Lizmark in jeopardy and set off the first round of nearfalls. Here Satanico just sort of waited in the ring, and when Lizmark climbed back on the apron he headbutted Satanico and took over on offense. Because Lizmark was winning and they'd already used their typical unsatisfying finish in the first, they wrapped this one up with a different face saving finish, as Satanico got his hand on the rope but Casas failed to spot it and counted three (I did enjoy MS-1 getting on his back to demonstrate what had happened). A payoff to Satanico using rope breaks to his advantage in the first? Maybe I'd think so if I hadn't seen Satanico go to that finish in one on one matches before this one. Even with the third fall, this was still a great effort (if not an unimpeachably great match), but the result probably should have been just a bit better. Early 1990s Lizmark/Villano III/Gran Hamada vs Sangre Chicana/La Fiera/Rambo Another shorty, this time from Monterrey (actually the first match in this post was from Monterrey but that was AAA in Monterrey). Fantastic lineup but the match being held in La Monumental Monterrey meant that it was going to be half-assed and badly clipped. Actually from what was shown it didn't look all that half-assed. Lizmark and Fiera (sporting a beard) were in the ring together, which is a dream match for me, but the best part of that was when Rambo came in afterwards and got starched. Hey, it's Lizmark's tope again. It didn't look that good this time but maybe it was the camera angle.

July 14 1998 Lizmark vs Satanico One of the first things I remember reading on this board was alexoblivion writing about this match, and until then I hadn't even known it existed. If I recall correctly his summary went something like "If you like watching Lizmark and Satanico wrestle then you'll probably enjoy this. If you're looking for HOLYSHIT SATANICO CLASSICS then you probably won't. Lizmark's chinlocks are really good and the finish is the same kind of finish these guys always do." There's not a lot I'd add to what he said, although I'd probably tweak it a little bit to needle Satanico fans. Actually I liked this the most of their three matches so far. Most of all I liked that Satanico actually got to control the match for a little bit and that Lizmark made a good comeback. Lizmark couldn't move as well as he had even five years before, but Satanico was excellent, especially his selling. Credit to Lizmark for still being able to wrestle such a good match without his athleticism and credit to Satanico for just being really good. September 10 1993 Lizmark/Rayo de Jalisco Jr./Latin Lover vs Satanico/Fishman/Mocho Cota This aired on TV the week before the match with Rambo and Villano in it but supposedly took place three days after that one did. I'm not sure if that's right, in part because Satanico has a bandage on his shoulder from a gash suffered in the match with Eddy Guerrero and Salomon Grundy, and he didn't have it in the other one. Just spitballing. This had some cool moments from Mocho Cota and Latin Lover, but it was a two fall match and a twenty-eight minute Youtube video. It wasn't THAT bad, as entrances were about seven minutes and challenges+replays were about six, but still. The first fall was really slow. The intensity ramped up in the second with almost everyone sporting either a bloodied face or a torn up mask, and then they ended on a lame DQ. Satanico was fine beating up Lizmark and Lizmark was fine making his comeback, but this whole feud has gone by rote, and here they were actually presented as the third most important pair in the match. Of course theirs was the only match that ended up happening. Cota definitely bailed on a match with Latin Lover. I don't know if Rayo vs Fishman was ever supposed to happen.

July 7 1998 Lizmark/Atlantis/Emilio Charles Jr. vs Satanico/Blue Panther/Apolo Dantes This appeared to be clipped or very short. Atlantis beat Satanico and challenged him for his middleweight title. In the ring they were good but ordinary, although I appreciated the fact that the match was about them. It was after the match that things got chippy. Atlantis kept shoving Satanico and jamming his hand in Satanico's face as Alfonso Morales was trying to interview him, and eventually they locked up on the outside and headed back to the ring for a scuffle (at which point the broadcast decided to show replays of the finish). You rarely get to see Atlantis actually piss someone off. I don't know what happened, but a week later Satanico defended his title against not Atlantis but Lizmark, who didn't have much of a role in this one. He sort of stumbled around in the first, and he and Blue Panther messed up a submission hold, but he looked better afterwards and even did a cool flipping pin on Panther in the second. September 7 1993 Lizmark/Villano III/Panterita del Ring vs Satanico/Fishman/Rambo Villano got taken out early with a shot from Rambo's utility belt. That could have led to a dramatic match in which the outnumbered tecnicos made a valiant comeback and showed their heart and skill, but it didn't. The rudos won easy even with Rambo posing throughout most of the first fall. Satanico vs Lizmark was more energetic this week. Lizmark's mask had been yanked almost completely off when he escaped outside the ring with it, and Satanico actually fell to the floor in trying to snatch it back. He hammered away on Lizmark with some good punches too, but it was hard to see how that was much different from Fishman trapping Panterita in the corner and chopping the hell out of him, which was going on at the same time. There just hasn't been much imagination on either man's part in this program. Lizmark might have the best backbreaker ever, though. Fishman wasn't much of a bumper by 1993 and Lizmark's backbreaker on him still looked great. I love how he throws up his arms just before he does it, too. January 9 1998 Lizmark/Atlantis vs Fishman/Blue Panther This was from one of those one night tournaments with nothing at stake that they sometimes ran. Those sometimes get written off as filler, but this one set up a Mr. Niebla/Shocker vs Emilio Charles/Dr. Wagner title match, which would in turn lead to the breakup of the Charles/Wagner team, and it also established a shoulder injury that would bother Emilio for weeks afterwards. So this one was actually well thought out. Atlantis and Fishman traded holds, which was surprisingly good, and then we got Lizmark vs Panther. That was REALLY good, the best technical display I've seen from Lizmark yet, but here's the problem: I'm not sure if it was better than Panther vs Wagner from later that night. It's not a good sign when the best Lizmark's looked at going hold for hold is not even the best exchange of that type his opponent has on that show. I do think that Lizmark was quite good with holds, but on the other hand I can see why people might not find him so impressive. He looked to be in prime form in this one though, better than in that match from July.

October 8 2006 Lizmark/Maximo/La Mascara vs Emilio Charles Jr./Averno/Mephisto Another 2006 match. Lizmark looked painfully old at the end of the first fall, when he struggled to perform even a basic kick and his once beautiful powerbomb was basically Mephisto performing the move on himself. He did better the rest of the way. I thought Maximo looked like someone who'd have fit in fine in the 1990s and the ex-Infernales did some cool two on one stuff with La Mascara. There was a clever finish to the second fall: it looked like the tecnicos were on their way to a shutout win (which seemed strange, with how much time was left on the Youtube video) when Emilio pulled out the old fake foul trick. It got the job done even though the announcers thought he was a bad actor. Maximo got them back with the same move in the third (acted out much worse). Maybe if he was in his prime I would have complained about Lizmark celebrating such a cheap victory, but at this point in his career he could probably have used the win. August 27 1993 Lizmark/Latin Lover/Salomon Grundy vs Satanico/Mocho Cota/Eddy Guerrero First things first, that is a terrible pair of teams. The best teams are ones where you can imagine all three guys hitting the town later that night, and there is not one pair of wrestlers there that I could envision hanging out together. Satanico and Cota come the closest. I don't really think Cota's classy enough for Satanico to associate with, though. You can overcome all that if the three disparate characters come together and work wonderfully as a unit, but I wouldn't be bringing it up if they had. Cota was working his ass off to get heat. Some of it was forced, like the screaming into the camera, and then there were moments like him darting through the crowd to escape Latin Lover when he really did feel like a lunatic. In between all that he really beat the crap out of Latin, who gave a pretty good performance himself. He didn't get much revenge on the eight fingered madman, but his bumping was impressive and he certainly got across the idea that Cota had pissed him off, like when he tried to leap over Eddy just to get a piece of Cota. It all came together when Cota had his nose almost pressed up against the camera, and then Latin Lover's foot shot into the frame and sent Cota flying. In comparison, Lizmark vs Satanico barely felt like a feud. It wasn't bad, it just could have been a pairing for some random match rather than part of the prelude to a big title defense. There was one point when Cota was beating up Latin Lover, and Lizmark decided to just continue working over Guerrero instead of saving his partner. That never looks good. The announcers called Satanico "Daniel el travieso," which is what Dennis the Menace is called in Spanish, and Salomon Grundy looked as uninterested in his own wrestling match as I have ever seen a wrestler look. Not really good but better than I'd feared going in. July 18 1998 Lizmark/Fishman vs Hijo del Santo/Guerrero del Futuro Short match that popped up in my related videos, so what the hell. This was part of a loser advances tournament in which the team that lost in the finals would have to wrestle each other mask vs mask. Lizmark looked fine against Guerrero del Futuro (Jose Luis Feliciano in disguise), and then Hijo del Santo came into the ring. A dream match come to life? Not really, Santo just ran into a couple of backbreakers before getting pinned. The video was like nine minutes long but the match was only half that. For some reason the video played it twice. The most interesting thing about this tournament is that apparently Abdul el Esclavo was still wrestling in 1998.

July 9 1995 Lizmark vs Jerry Estrada May as well watch the rarely mentioned rematch from two years later. Estrada was champion going into this one, held in Lizmark's hometown of Acapulco, so unfortunately it didn't have the same dynamic as the 1993 match. Even if Lizmark had been champion, I doubt this would have been particularly good, as they basically filled time for fifteen minutes until it was time for the angle. The only attempts to do anything interesting came in the form of cheap shit like interference from Psicosis, Estrada picking Lizmark up at two, and an apparent submission that Pepe Casas missed. In this instance the angle was seconds Rey Misterio Jr. and Psicosis getting into a tussle in which they looked like two kids fighting in front of their dads. Lizmark had only a month or so left before he'd return to the CMLL. As much as I wish Lizmark vs Estrada was a classic rivalry, it clearly isn't. Either this match needed to be worth watching or the buildup to the 1993 match needed to add to the program. I'd have taken just one of two, but a great longstanding feud is more than just one excellent match. August 20 1993 Lizmark/Mascara Sagrada/Salomon Grundy vs Satanico/MS-1/Pirata Morgan In 1992, these guys had a match that I loved, except that it was Atlantis in there instead of Salomon Grundy. This match I did not love or even consider good. Therefore it is my contention that Atlantis is a better wrestler than Salomon Grundy. (To be fair, the Infernales were nowhere near the team they'd been in 1992, Satanico and Lizmark did nothing interesting together, and Lizmark slipped on a springboard spot. I don't like focusing on botches but a large part of Lizmark's appeal is his grace and precision, and one mistake can throw that all away.)

January 14 1994 Lizmark/Mascara Sagrada vs Fishman/Pirata Morgan With some guys, you can see them matched up with anyone on the roster and need to know how it turns out. And then there is Mascara Sagrada. Put him in there with Pierroth, with Fantasma, with Fishman, anyone on down the line and I can guarantee you that I will not care about it, at least not if it's just getting through a twenty minute match rather than actually building to something. I don't even think he's that bad, it's just that his mask gets all torn up and he bleeds all over, and that's all there is. It makes for a great sight if it was something interesting that caused it. When there isn't any real reason for him to be bleeding, it's just a shortcut. Now on the bright side that does leave Lizmark and Pirata to be paired up, but they didn't do much more than Sagrada and Fishman. Really the only good moments here were a couple of spurts of offense from Lizmark. It's nice that he can provide bright spots in a dull fight like this, but say that enough times and it becomes a backhanded compliment. Lizmark could contribute in a lot of ways. He was good in technical matches and brawls, singles matches and tags, but it's pretty clear that he wasn't the kind of guy who could make a match good all on his own. The week before they'd run this same match but with Mascarita Sagrada and Piratita Morgan added alongside their larger counterparts, and afterwards Pirata demanded a shot at Lizmark's belt and the crowd approved. If that ever happened then any record of it has been lost to history. June 18 1993 Lizmark vs Jerry Estrada - The holds in the first fall were good. If the same holds had happened in a Lizmark vs Satanico match, though, they'd probably be considered disappointing. - I liked that challenger Estrada was almost always the attacker, and it was champion Lizmark's job to counter. - The succession of moves with which Lizmark won the first fall was the perfect display of tecnico dominance, and some of the credit has to go to Estrada. He usually sells backbreakers comically but treated them like legitimately painful throws here. - The short second fall isn't a common feature of Lizmark matches. In fact I can't remember ever seeing it in one of his. - Estrada is good at projecting a palpable shift in attitude when the tables turn in a match. He was bewildered throughout the first fall, and in the third it was clear that he'd been embarrassed by that and that he was eager to humiliate Lizmark just as badly (mocking him with moves like the one footed pinfall attempt, and furiously pacing about while Lizmark took a brief rest on the outside). - The spot where Lizmark missed a move and flew out of the ring before getting blasted with a dive, one of the best of the match, was taken from the match with Enfermero Jr. and thus likely a Lizmark contribution to this one. - I really liked how all of the big moves in the third fall shifted the momentum of the match: Estrada assault => Estrada tope into Estrada nearfalls => Lizmark plancha into Lizmark nearfalls => Lizmark missed plancha into Estrada nearfalls. - Lizmark was on point and everything he did looked good. That missed splash would've been right on the mark. - The crowd got more and more into the match the longer it went, or at least that's how it sounded. - I have no idea why Lizmark vs Satanico never feels this big. - This is probably my match of the year for 1993 Mexico, beating out Negro Casas' matches with Ultimo Dragon and Fiera.

June 4 1993 Lizmark/Octagon/Mascara Sagrada vs Jerry Estrada/Satanico/La Parka That's one hell of a Lizmark killing lineup. Unfortunately the match was not about killing Lizmark. He trapped Estrada in a tirabuzon at the end of the first fall, and after being released Estrada sat there on his knees fuming. He looked so furious that they freezeframed the shot of his face and made it the first thing they showed when they got back from commercial. You'd expect the rest of the match to be about him trying to get revenge, but nope. The only other memorable thing he did was clothesline a fan (and possibly give a woman a bloody lip) as he sailed into the crowd. As this was Satanico's AAA debut, there was a lot of focus on him vs Octagon. That could have been fine, but like Mascara Sagrada vs Fantasma, it wasn't actually building up to a match, and it also wasn't exactly compelling regardless. Lizmark vs Estrada wasn't much better this week. They took forever to get around to the comeback, and when they finally did each tecnico began his at a different time. A step back from the previous week's match. June 11 1993 Lizmark/Octagon/Mascara Sagrada vs Jerry Estrada/Satanico/La Parka There was a fan with an aisle seat who was taking pictures of the wrestlers as they made their entrances, but when Mascara Sagrada passed by the guy stuck his middle finger in Sagrada's face. This was a brawl from the start and a lot more intense than the week before. Again, though, they didn't focus on the matchup I wanted them to. It's partly my fault for having this idea of Estrada pummeling Lizmark as Parka and Satanico make sure that their hated rival gets what he deserves, but on the other hand the match ended with Estrada scoring with a low blow and making a public challenge for the belt. Why shouldn't it have been about him? Their matchup was better this week, but every other aspect of the match let them down. We didn't even see the tecnico comeback. They came back from commercial with Mascara Sagrada throwing Estrada to the ropes. Disappointing couple of matches.

May 7 1993 Lizmark/Mascara Sagrada/Latin Lover vs La Parka/Fantasma/Espectro Jr. This match was not any better than the one from the week before Lizmark vs Parka. It started off like it might be a big brawl, but then it slowed down and all the intensity dissipated, and by the end I didn't care. They were still pushing that Fantasma vs Mascara Sagrada feud. On Lizmark's end, he didn't have a good match. He blew stuff both with Parka and with Espectro, and this was another match where he looked better brawling than doing his athletic spots. Espectro Jr. is listed as working both AAA and CMLL shows around this time. I assume he wasn't really, but I don't know his mannerisms well enough to know if this one is the real deal. Whoever he was, I thought he was the best guy in the match. May 28 1993 Lizmark/Super Muñeco/Dragon de Oro vs Jerry Estrada/Ice Killer/El Cobarde II If you ever wanted to know how this program began, it all started when Estrada shot Lizmark the finger while being introduced. I liked how when they first squared off after that, they followed it up with Lizmark chucking Estrada to the outside and scaring him into the crowd by faking a dive. Okay, now they've each pissed each other off, so you'd think things are going to get really heated... but instead Estrada just suplexes and cradles Lizmark to win the fall shortly after. The end of the second fall was well done: Lizmark scattered the rudos with another dive fake, and his teammates wiped out one rudo each, but Lizmark missed his shot at Estrada and ended up submitting. Already Estrada was calling for the belt. If nothing else, he and Lizmark were much smoother working together than Lizmark was with Parka. We also got to see the technical stylings of Cobarde and Dragon de Oro (with Morales talking about how the original Cobarde was much better than this version), and Super Muñeco vs Ice Killer was a fun matchup. It might say something terrible about my tastes but I've never seen Super Muñeco as any kind of awful wrestler. I think I might have liked this more than any of the tags from the Lizmark vs Parka feud.

September 10 1994 Lizmark/Heavy Metal/Volador vs Misterioso/Ice Killer/Chicano Power The day after losing his national lightheavyweight title, and now booked in a match that was a mile beneath him, Lizmark still tried. This wasn't even what I'd call a good Lizmark contribution (the match wasn't noticeably better or worse when Volador or Metal was in instead), but the fact that he even put forth any effort for a match like this said something for him. The match itself was a typical midrange brawl wrestled at midrange speed with midrange intensity. Misterioso did some fun stuff as a rudo. Average or somewhat below, probably not worth over twenty minutes of your time. April 30 1993 Lizmark vs La Parka This was considered a great match at the time. I'd rather not dump on a Lizmark match that may actually have backers, so I'll try to be quick. - Parka got a ton of nearfalls. Lizmark dominating the match appears to be a phenomenon unique to his matches with Satanico. - Parka bounced between cool (spitting on Lizmark's hand when offered for a handshake), annoying (that crap where he'd stop Casas' hand from counting three), and in between (him shoving Lizmark away like he didn't want to wrestle anymore, which was salvaged by how good his selling was). His celebration was great. - A lot of times, even when they're doing good stuff, it's a bit awkward physically. Lizmark has better chemistry with Satanico in that regard. - Lizmark did a good job keeping up most of the way but looked tired towards the end of the first portion of the match. - At first I thought Morales would be right and that Parka wouldn't be able to find the drive after having that big celebration negated, but the nearfalls were good and Parka's bump into the post was a perfect way to signal that it was all over. Overall it felt a lot bigger than the Satanico matches. Still not the most triumphant victory for the man in blue. - I think I'd rate this second best of the Lizmark one on ones so far, behind only the match with Enfermero Jr.

That doesn't sound like defining yourself by the company you keep.

1984 Lizmark vs Satanico Both men looked better here than they did in their 1992 match. It wasn't just athleticism and sharpness, they did better with holds too. This was probably the best opening hold for hold section of any Lizmark match so far. Satanico did a very good job throughout of carrying himself like a champion trying to push back a challenger, a dynamic that wasn't there eight years later. It's hard to pin down why exactly it felt that way, just the way he'd back up from a lockup when Lizmark was gaining momentum, or sit in the ropes until he was ready to fight. He made a face that exuded annoyance more than the desperation in his attempt to do the same kind of thing in the other match. Satanico controlled the pace of the match as a champion would, but the challenger still outwrestled him and took the first fall. Very well done. The rest of the match wasn't bad, but they didn't really build on their good work in the first fall either. Again there was no lingering feeling that Satanico could start to get nasty with his holds and really mess Lizmark up. It was actually Lizmark who brought the pain at the start of the second. Everything he did was executed perfectly, as Lizmark is quite good at wrestling violently, but I couldn't grasp what changed the tone of the match. Maybe there was something to it in the buildup. By itself, it just looked like an overreaction to Satanico stalling at the start of the fall. And I can't understand why they make their third falls feel so small and unimportant. They went to a draw, fine, but before that you could at least wrestle the rest of the fall like it's the two best wrestlers in the world throwing everything they have at each other. Instead it was mostly all Lizmark. It's not just a case of Lizmark wrestling his matches that way. Enfermero Jr. put up more of a fight than Satanico did. The selling was great, but they weren't selling anything memorable. I can't imagine how anyone in the crowd would end up telling stories about this match for the rest of their life, at least not anything beyond "Hey, I saw Lizmark and Satanico in person once." April 23 1993 Lizmark/Mascara Sagrada/Latin Lover vs La Parka/Fantasma/Ice Killer The final stop before Lizmark vs Parka at Triplemania. This kind of match can be the absolute best use of six men possible, but instead they spent the first fall with Ice Killer on Lizmark and Parka on Latin Lover. Who could possibly care about Mascara Sagrada vs Fantasma in 2016 (I'm sure at the time it was exciting)? And so slowly paced too. That might work with a matchup you want to see but the first fall had not one of those. The second wasn't much better. Lizmark dropped some stairs on Parka and got disqualified for yanking his mask off, and then he and the other tecnicos took down rudo referee El Coyote and stripped him of his shirt. Even Morales disapproved. I guess the idea was that Parka had driven Lizmark mad, but they could have told that story in a way that didn't make him look like a crybaby (he absolutely deserved that DQ) and a bully.