El Dragon

Christian is in the all time “Input over Output” Mount Rushmore to me. If you are just ranking this by pure high end matches, Christian has no case to be made. He has the Orton series with is arguably the best thing Randy was ever part of, the Title Loss to Swagger, and and a bunch of good not great. But if you were watching him week to week during his ECW title run, you understand just how good he was. And if he can stay healthy for a run, he’ll remind you again. There is no worker I’m more convinced can still be good as his body breaks down then Christian, because his greatest asset is his brain. Mixing his spots up in clever ways that never feel scripted, building interesting dynamics match to match, all stuff I value significantly, and Christian is a fucking master at it. I need to deep dive his ECW Title run to illustrate how great he was at his element. A complete lock for my ballet, and hopefully we can get him just a few spots higher to that top 100 spot instead of just short.

So, the first watch party was pretty eye opening for Jaguar, and she has quickly became someone I’d be shocked if she doesn’t make my list. Just from the six matches we watched, I’m pretty sure there are a lot of wrestlers who made the list in 2016 who didn’t have 5 performances better then her performances on those matches. Need to watch more to see how high, but she’s a shoe in foe the list, and if she has a lot more on top of that, she’s a top 50 player. And to think we got robbed of her 26-35 career by a silly rule at the time.

I agree with this take honestly, even as someone not super high on Flair. My problem as stated is he has habits I don't care for (Primarily having multiple defensive spots), and I appreciate elements of him, but pretending he wasn't great is kind of silly to a certain degree. I just don't think he hit that highest level for me personally as much as he did for everyone else it seems.

Amusingly I think Ikeda is one of the people from the bottom 10 last go around most likely to retain a spot, and it’s largely due to the early start. One good weekend of Ikeda is possibly enough to strong consider him as an option to retain.

Flair is one of those weird guys who I can both acknowledge is really really great but feel no passion about due to a variety of factors that are pet peeves of mine personally. One I’ve talked about with friends is that I general despise defensive spots, and Flair has a lot of them. The over the turnbuckle into apron walk, the face plant and what not tends to take me out of his matches and is a hinderance for me, which is a big one when it comes down to the truest top end top tier wrestlers of all time. And while god knows there have been debates about this for god knows how long, I kind of dislike how he can fall into his formula to an extent. I don’t mind formula in wrestling, I just personally never really cared much for Flairs formula specifically. Add in I’m very much an input over output type of voter, and I don’t think Flair has much of a chance of cracking my top 10 or 15, and will be more likely somewhere in the 20-40 range. Where as the guys I hold as the true top end heels of the 80’s on input (Bockwinkel and Rose) are basically locks for my top 20, and most likely top 10 guys for me.

The 143st best wrestler by this listing is Villano III, and if you asked me if I’d like to watch a bunch more Villano III my answer would be “unquestionably yes”

I think you can even push this back to around 200 or so and the list still continues to be of interesting wrestlers whose careers are fascinating to look into in depth. Using the “We should do lists of only 20-30” completely misses how many great workers there actually are.

Have we discussed the possibility of sending in ballots with more then just 100 names yet and if they would have any value that way? I'm not sure on my opinion on the matter, but I know if I watch all I want to too the ballet space will get super tight.

Feels odd this one hasn’t been bumped up, as she has to be a high contender for wrestlers who the last 5 years in WWE has been a major net positive. Whenever she’s been put in a major role it feels like she’s succeeded at doing something cool, and she had a solid career predating her WWE run too. I had her on my list last time and I’d be very surprised if she isn’t on it again.

I am dumping this one up because of the absolutely fascinating rise and fall of Gargano in the last 5 years. His evolution from tag team ace in the best tag team feud the WWE ever produced, to Sami Zayn level NXT pure babyface, his outstanding match with Andrade, his huge first match with Ciampa had many singing his praises. He felt unarguable. And then he completely, imo, fell off a cliff since then. The Ciampa feud fell off the rails, he got absorbed in the seeming Hunter/HBK style of mindless epics that fall flat, and how he’s just kind of the king of the midcard guy. I have never had a wrestler go from one of my favorites to least favorites so horrifically quickly based just on in ring work. He has the highs to make the case but I just don’t see it as present.

For me personally, while I do wish wrestling had a cleaner past, it simply doesn’t and there isn’t a great way to differentiate and draw a line past what makes me uncomfortable to watch. And it’s not always as straight forward as “these are awful people” for me. For me personally when you decide you are going to deep dive into old wrestling footage you are signing a big of a social agreement that you are going to be watching people who were probably awful entertain you, no matter what style or company you are watching. I was able to watch Buck Zumhofe matches and outside of some off hand comments about how much I’d like to see someone stiff the shit out of him, I got through the match fine. There are only 2 wrestlers I think I’m completely eliminating due to person shit: Benoit (because every time I watch him I feel like I’m watching a new concussion that helped led to what happened happening) and Quackenbush (Which is personal as one of the people vocal about Quack during speaking out happened to be my best friend of 15 years)

Bumping this one up because I’m curious if there is anything that’s really popped up for him post Lucha Underground that’s been standout. He made my list last time but I haven’t followed him much since.

God Roman clearly fucking loves finally being able to be Heel in front of a crowd.

Like how they are working with the triple threat formula.

Crowds quiet as shit but this has been a war.

That bump from Apollo looked super not fucking fun.

I wonder when that Spear to the Outside spot won't feel good god damned crazy.

I wonder if they will use this as a means to have Riddle start being more serious. The post match staredown was pretty good.

Top Rope Knee Drop to the Chest looking better then most 450's. Fucking Christ that Brogue Kick looked great. Sheamus rules.

Sheamus has been really good for a long time, he's really graduated to being one of the very best guys they have in recent times.

Yeah, I'm down for these 2 just stiffing the fuck out of each other.

Riddle gets fucking arena pyro? Fucking Riddle?

Sheamus has been so fucking great lately and Riddle is so obnoxious I hope this match goes shorter then the Sheamus/Bryan Mania match.

Paul actually took the Stunner bump better then like 90% of wrestlers.

I love them hinting at there old indy moves in this one. Steen hinting the Package Piledriver, Zayn Hinting the BRAINBUSTAH and what not. Because it's Mania and it's the only time I can legitimately see them hitting them.