goodhelmet

Sure.

Dory blows. Parv no sold it because he didn't have a proper answer. As for the Taker heel run.. .what a pile of garbage. The Hogan match was horrible. The RVD matches were fun with RVD bouncing around and flying from rafters. I don't recall any good Rock-Taker matches and the Flair match was way over-rated back when it happened and it didn't hold up last time I saw it. Felt like overbooked garbage. I think they included him because Taker is their icon. He is on every single list they do.

A preview for Part 2...

I agree with Venegas and it has been a point of contention for me in my discussions with Parv and Loss over the years. We should do a podcast on the NWA touring champ.

I like Mark posting here but I agree with Milano that he really should explain how Brian Christopher is one of the worst wrestlers to ever come through those doors because Mark and I tend to like the same type of wrestling.

They wouldn't actually write poopy. They would write shit and the whole world knows they would write shit (or at the very least crap) and that it sucks. It's fucking stupid. In fact, he should have spray painted "This is fucking stupid" on the car.

That would be precisely one of the reasons I had Dick Murdoch so high as a heel ... he reminds me of my father. Daddy issues.

I wouldn't go that far. He had some fun PPV matches but this is the first one that broke out into great territory.

Rusev vs. Sheamus was amazing. It is right up there as one of my WWE MOTYCs.

Hell, the blood added to the severity of the beatdown. Wrestling needs blood.

I thought that ending was incredibly effective. The crowd actually gave a shit.

This Big Show interview is awesome.

Titus was looking good for awhile... however, it shouldn't be a returning Ryback that he is manhandling if they aren't going to do anything with him.

WingedEagle, I am guessing you did not participate in the DVDVR Memphis voting. Not one person who watched that set, to the best of my memory, came away talking about the underwhelming matches. If you watched the Lawler-Dundee Loser Leave Town matches, the Idol cage match, the Savage series, the Bock series, the Funk series, the Kerry series, Hennig series, Dutch series, Tommy Rich matches, the Crusher Blackwell match, the Bundy match, the Lawler/Idol vs. Freebirds matches, the Bam Bam match, the Martel match, the Moondgos brawls, the different feuds when Lawler & Dundee teamed, the Lawler/Jarrett team, the Lawler-Dreamer match from 1997 or 2010, the Goldust match, the Mercury singles match, the Corino singles match and still came away underwhelmed? At this point, we simply do not like the same type of wrestling.

Give us some context.

I love this company.

That is one of the weirdest 1-2 punches I have ever seen at this board... criticizing Jimmy Valiant and then turning around and praising / defending Sandman.

I would like to say that it is interesting to note that we had two thumbs up (me and Johnny), one thumbs in the middle leaning up (Kris), one thumbs down due to booking (Phil) and one straight thumbs down (Dylan). Yep... group think.

This is what bothers me about not having footage of some guys. Lets say in some alternate universe, we only have the following matches from Inoki... Antonio Inoki vs. Stan Hansen (2/8/80) Antonio Inoki vs. Stan Hansen (4/3/80) Antonio Inoki vs. Stan Hansen (5/9/80) Antonio Inoki & Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Andre the Giant & Rene Goulet (12/10/81) Antonio Inoki vs. Hulk Hogan (IWGP League Final) (6/2/83) Antonio Inoki vs. Riki Choshu (5/18/84) Antonio Inoki vs. Dick Murdoch (12/10/85) Tatsumi Fujinami & Kengo Kimura vs. Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi (12/12/85) Antonio Inoki & Keiichi Yamada vs. Nobuhiko Takada & Osamu Kido (2/5/86) Antonio Inoki vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara (2/6/86) Antonio Inoki vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara (6/12/86) Antonio Inoki vs. Dick Murdoch (6/19/86) Antonio Inoki vs. Masa Saito (4/27/87) Antonio Inoki vs. Riki Choshu (2/4/88) Antonio Inoki vs. Vader (7/29/88) Antonio Inoki vs. Riki Choshu (2/22/89) Antonio Inoki vs. Vader (1/4/96) - At worst, he is a Top 20 guy. Add his tags and he may be a Top 15 guy. Then you watch the hundreds of hours of Inoki where he just stinks up the ring. Fuck... what the fuck do you do with that while trying to give credit to some guy like the Destroyer?

OK, I don't want to disrupt the low man thread so I split the topic to the guys who could make everyone's lists but yours.

This is a tricky question to answer. There are so many guys who will receive votes that won't even make my list. There are certain styles of wrestling that don't appeal to me that I am not going to bother seeking out that footage and will miss out on some guys other people like. The more interesting question is who will be a lock for every list? Is anybody NOT going to put Hansen on their list? Who isn't going to put Austin on their list even if he is low on the list? Is Flair or Funk going to be on everyone's list? I know Lawler won't be on the list for guys like Joe. I don't know if any joshi contenders will be on every list since I know of several people who have no interest in the style or care to vote for certain workers. Matt D is some weird place where he doesn't dig Misawa, Kawada or Kobashi but is he going to leave them off his list outright?

I wrote this up awhile back but the old board's posting issues made it near impossible to post. I tweaked a couple of things but it still holds true today. If you think Lawler is all about the great punching and the piledriver finish, you simply haven't been paying attention. If his style of wrestling isn't for you, i won't argue (we all like different shit) but it would be hard for me to take you seriously as a wrestling fan. BIGGEST BUMPER: This cannot be dismissed. He may not bump big in every single TV Match but he has been taking big bumps for decades. In the 1970s, we have footage of him falling down a flight of bleachers or taking the LeDuc bump on the table. In the 1980s, he was taking insane back bumps on the apron, on the floor, and really nutty bumps outside on tables in one of the big Savage matches. He also took the nutty bleacher fall in the 1985 Dundee LLT. In the 1990s, the one that comes to mind is in the Goldust brawl where he rolls the entire length of the ramp after a lights out nasty brawl. In the 2000s, he took insane bumps against Shane Helms and Kamala. I also have to give him props for surviving the non-gimmicked table against Mark Henry in 2011. He is also one of the greatest ring post bumpers in history, like teeth shattering great. When Lawler gets posted, you never think that he did not take the brunt of the impact. Seriously, nobody bumps bigger than Lawler when it is important enough to bump big whether it is a huge arena, a gym for the local indy or the occasional TV shot. If you don’t think Lawler isn’t one of the biggest, if not the biggest, bumpers in wrestling history, you haven’t been paying attention. Until a few months ago, when Phil Schneider pointed it out to me, I never gave him credit for bumping either. As a heel, the idea that Lawler has to feed the babyfaces offense through bumping is a narrow-sighted way of viewing wrestling. I like formula wrestling as much as the next guy but not every match needs to fit in the construct of one formula. When we watched the AWA tags, they did not fit the strict Southern tag FIP formula but they made it work within the territory and the tag matches were high end. I love Ric Flair matches but the criticisms of Flair playing the bitch stem from his bumping for opponents and feeding the babyfaces at all costs. If you want heel Lawler bumping around like a pinball, feeding the faces, watch the 1970s footage. Shoe can back me up on this. The next time Lawler plays heel is in his 40s. Bumping is a young mans game and if Lawler does not feed every opponent some offense during the match to save for the big bump, I am fine with that. One of the things about a Lawler bump is that when he does take a bump, it usually will set up a transition and Lawler is a master at transitions in matches. As a face, Lawler bumps pretty huge throughout his career to allow the heel to take control but nobody is disputing that. SELLING I was watching the famous 1981 Lawler vs. Funk match the other day and one of the things that really stands out is Lawler selling. When Funk takes out the leg, you think it was 1979 again and it was broken all over. However, when Funk takes too long to get the chair back, Lawler moves and wallops Funk’s leg with the chair. I love Randy Savage selling the leg but he’ll sell the leg the whole match, bodyslam, hit the big elbow and limp off. With Lawler, he’ll sell long enough to know that damage was done but not too long if the attack wasn’t sufficient for long term selling. This isn’t to dismiss Lawler selling long term. I will refer to Phil Schneider… “Lawler in contrast is really amazing at long term selling, his bumps really are much bigger as the match goes on, and he is spectacular at digging down for one last shot.” In a short match, like a concession stand brawl, there is not much long term selling because the adrenaline in the fight keeps the guys going and the best brawls usually involve great short term selling like my example above. However, when Lawler goes long against Bockwinkel, Race, Dundee, whoever… he really does express the toll the accumulated damage has done to him. He doesn’t always sell the body part long term but his facial expressions and mannerisms always convey the amount of punishment he took in the fight. My favorite Lawler selling moment is the 1985 Lawler – Dundee LLT. Lawler comes in with a bandage, Dundee attacks and Lawler sells each moment of damage. Knowing he was injured, Lawler fights valiantly but comes up short and it cost him in the end. BEST PUNCHER IN HISTORY: I think I will let Phil Schneider say why Lawler is the best puncher in wrestling history… “Of course one of the great things about any Lawler matches is the punches, and they are amazing. Jabs, uppercuts, straight rights, hooks, punches on his knees, punches from the mount, diving punches, jumping punches. Lawler has more variety on his shots than anyone, ever, and they all rule.” “We always talk about Lawler's punches but he may be the greatest mounted punches in the corner puncher of all time. That is a spot that is almost always bad looking, but Lawler looks like he is killing people. “ Lawler was so great at punching and his lack of moves even started an awesome angle with Nick Bockwinkel. When I hear somebody complain that all he does is punch, I automatically have Bock’s voice in my head in that condescending tone challenging Lawler to a match where each punch will cost him $500. Lawler does not have a lot of moves in his repertoire. He has a back body drop, a body slam, the occasional DDT, the super leg drop, the sunset flip pin, a horrible Stunner (the lowest point of touring indy Lawler), and a suplex or two. Who gives a shit how many moves Lawler performs in a match? If Lawler does three variations of the punches that Phil described, that is good enough for me. If you want moves for the sake of moves, watch Dragon Gate. If you want matwork for the sake of matwork (although Lawler can get on the mat sometimes) go watch a New Japan juniors match. I compare it to preferring Exile on Main Street to some Euro-trash synth pop. Some prefer a garage band, others prefer a 20 piece horn section, 6 backup singers and a flute. I like both. FEUDS Nobody carries a feud better or longer than Lawler. There is a reason that Lawler v Funk or Lawler v Idol or Lawler v Dreamer can carry weight a decade or two or three after the initial feud even though they didn’t last for decades like the Lawler-Dundee feud. I have made this list before but I will make it again… Lawler vs. Dundee… 4 decades Lawler vs. Fargo… 1970s Lawler vs. Funk… 1981 Lawler vs. Dutch / Lawler vs. Kaufman / Lawler vs. Bock… 1982 Lawler vs. Jimmy Hart… 1980 through 1984 Lawler vs. Savage… 1984 through 1985 Lawler & Dutch vs. Bill & Buddy… 1986 Lawler vs. Tommy Rich & Austin Idol… 1987 Lawler vs. Hennig… 1988 Lawler vs. One Legged Kerry… 1988 Lawler vs. Snowman… 1990 Lawler & Jarrett vs. Moondogs… 1992 Lawler vs. WWF… 1993 Lawler vs. ECW… 1997 CARRYING BROOMSTICKS Like other territory guys, Lawler has had to draw houses against some truly abysmal wrestlers. More impressive, he has also had career matches with guys that have never reached those peaks again. The King Kong Bundy $10,000 Challenge match is probably Bundy’s highlight match. Then Lawler and Savage had killer tag matches with a very green Rick Rude and Bundy. Who else besides Savage and Lawler could have carried these guys to this peak this early in those guys’ career? The Bam Bam Bigelow Texas Death match is the best singles Bam Bam match I have ever seen and it is even more impressive considering Bam Bam was a rookie at the time. I can’t think of another singles Bam Bam match that even approaches the greatness of that one match. In 1987, the Austin Idol match in the cage was a great match regardless of the memorable outcome and has to be the highlight in Idol’s career. Idol has had other great matches but with guys on Lawler’s level, never with someone in the B or C class of wrestlers. Kerry Von Erich was a great wrestler. One legged, he had some good matches against the Freebirds but he had classics with Lawler when he was on one leg. Like the Bam Bam match, it isn’t unusual to have a good match with Kerry Von Erich over the course of the career. It is amazing to have several great matches post-amputee Kerry. In 1990, he had some of the most compelling match with Valiant he has ever had. As Cox said about Lawler’s 1990 JYD match, “It's a master class on how to get something out of an opponent who brings little to the table. “ Are they 4 star classics? No way. However, that overtime period of the Valiant match is one of the greatest displays of using the gimmick of the match to create drama. Phil and I recently watched a Kamala match from 2003 and it may be Kamala’s best match ever although the Hogan No Holds Barred match from 1987 may overtake it. Still, this is Kamala in 2003, not when he was a money making draw in the 1980s. The Snowman feud from 1990 is a great feud but the way Lawler worked those matches in a quasi-shoot manner (which the feud called for) gave Snowman a level of credibility he never had before or after. That is Lawler making somebody interesting that was never interesting otherwise. In 2014 and counting, I know Miz has had some good-great singles matches with Daniel Bryan, Cesaro and Lawler. I don’t think any Miz matches have been better than the Lawler TLC match or the World Title shot. The reason Miz had any heat at all going into the Mania match was due to Lawler and how hot he made that feud. It would be one thing if Lawler has only had a couple of broomstick matches in his career but his entire 40+ year career is littered with them and it goes to show the importance of understanding how to work to your opponent’s strengths or limitations as well as having an arsenal that is compelling enough and smart enough to work with any wrestler. Just as an exercise, who has Flair had great matches with that didn’t have great matches with anyone else? The Luger matches are Luger’s greatest, no doubt. However, Luger was having good to great matches with other people on the roster at the same time. The Flair-Nikita matches don’t compare to the Flair-Magnum matches even though they happened less than 6 months apart. I never saw a Flair-Dusty match that I enjoyed more than Tully-Dusty. I am a huge Flair fan but when it came to carrying broomsticks, Lawler is king here. STORYTELLING / CHARACTER Nobody tells a story better in the ring than Lawler. His matches almost always make sense depending on what they are working for. If Lawler is working a TV match, he is usually advancing a story or angle. This doesn’t always translate to great studio matches but he has quite a few memorable ones under his belt. If he is working monsters, he acts like a guy who is working monsters, he’s working underneath (Kamala, Bundy, Master of Pain). If he is wrestling a smaller guy, he plays the bully who abuses and punishes his opponent (Kaufman). Working Flair or Bock or Race or Hennig in the big title matches with the touring champ, nearly every single title match felt important and he treated it with the gravitas the privilege deserved which probably helped their placing on the DVDVR rankings. During the Snowman feud, he didn’t go in to the fight hiding a chain and cracking jokes. They fought the feud in a quasi-shoot fashion showing another layer to Lawler’s character. In the 1970s, he played the annoying smart mouthed high pitched heel and got under the skin of Fargo and Fargo made him pay with blood. He worked a title match with Jimmy Valiant where the overtime was a beautiful piece of storytelling where the first guy to get knocked off his feet loses. Lawler’s facial expressions, staggering, teasing the fall… all worked beautifully. Watching tons of these indy matches for the set, Lawler is usually playing the grizzled old legend who has to put a younger cocky heel in his place. Phil and I watched a Steve Corino match from 2002 and a Joey Mercury match from 2007 where Lawler plays it straight and his heel opponent tries to challenge for the throne using all of the tricks that Lawler taught them…. Choking with the wrist tape, hiding the chain, distracting the ref… will the student conquer the master? It’s a story he tells usually with only a move or three used the entire match and the matches are solid gold. I want to address Lawler as a heel. I loved Dibiase using the loaded glove in Mid South. Others got tired of it. Using the chain is not that different. Also, Lawler was a master of hiding the chain. In his mouth smiling at the camera, in his boot, in the tights, pulling it out at the right time to abuse and punish his opponent. Nobody hides a chain as well or as clever as Lawler. Whenever Phil and I synch up and watch Lawler hide the chain, we mark out and marvel at how great Lawler was at the artform. Implying it is beneath him is implying that there is only one way to be a top guy. It’s a very Memphis thing and every heel since the 1970s who worked on top worked the chain. Dundee, Gilbert, Harts Family…. All wield the chain. One of the things I love about Lawler is how he embraced the character he was playing. He didn’t play face secretly wishing for a heel turn that nobody wanted. Even the WWF, he came in as an annoying heel and he embraced the role. I understand that people do not like the character but Lawler never tried to undercut the character on TV or be a cool heel. He was merciless in his abuse of Stu and Helen Hart. His Piper and Jake feuds were duds but Lawler went in full steam ahead no matter how stupid it made him look. Maybe a little subtlety would be nice but the King was not a subtle character and I give props to Lawler for embracing it. In 2004, Lawler reunites with Jimmy Hart as a heelI also love the fact that Lawler was able to play face and heel at the same time for two different audiences. When he was hamming it up as a heel in the Fed, he was making the WWF roster into heels down in Memphis. When he was a heel in ECW, he was actually playing the feud out in three different markets. Still, any criticisms of Lawler the heel usually ignore the 1970s footage since it isn’t widely circulated and focuses on a narrow point in his career in 1989-90 and his over the top heel run in the WWF which isn’t really indicative of Lawler’s career as a whole. I want to mention that Phil Schneider wanted me to write up the beauty of Lawler’s timing in his matches. I want Phil to elaborate on this point but it is another feather in his cap. I don’t have a problem with people not liking Lawler. I think he is somebody that people appreciate when they get older. I used to roll my eyes at his act when I was younger too. If you don’t value bumping, selling, storytelling, great feuds that mean something, carrying lesser performers and of course, the GREAT PUNCHES then he is not the wrestler for you. For my money, he is #1.