elliott

My answer for the whole thing was Tamura 94-99. He was as good in U-Style in 03-04 too. Well, yeah, obviously if you compare their whole careers, Tamura takes it due to longevity (around 130 > around 75, lol)... but how about just looking at those three amazing years where they fought each other and Kohsaka... In both cases it's obviously an amazing three-year peak period... but which one is more impressive over those three years specifically? Personally, I'm inclined to give '96 - '98 to Volk Han (over anyone else during that time), though I may feel that way in part because I can turn around and say, "...but Tamura had the better career overall." That way everyone gets a trophy I'll still take Tamura looking at 96-98. Volk has the advantage for the first 9months of 1996 before Tamura shows up to RINGS. Tamura has the 3 Sakuraba matches that rock, but feel sort of incomplete overall. Volk meanwhile was having great matches with Kohsaka. When Tamura showed up in RINGS and started working regularly again, I think he passes Volk and stays that way. Part of that is because Tamura works twice as many matches as Volk in 97 & 98. Volk had 7 or 8 matches in 1998 and two of them were against Akira Maeda. But I think Tamura's best non-Volk matches are better than Volk's best non-Tamura matches. And I'd need to look more carefully at it, but I feel like I would probably say I prefer Tamura's matches with common opponents more in that time period. Tamura vs Han 94-96 has a much clearer path for Volk being better than Tamura, but I realize I'm already an outlier in thinking Tamura was already the best guy in the world by that time period. By the time 1998 rolls around and Tamura gets to work multiple times with all the RINGS guys, he becomes so solidified in my eyes as the best guy who had ever done this, that the better comparison is Tamura 96-98 or Michael Jordan 96-98?

My answer for the whole thing was Tamura 94-99. He was as good in U-Style in 03-04 too.

I'm curious what people participating think about Pat Patterson? Do we know enough about his behind the scenes work putting together some of the most memorable matches in the history of the company to consider that a point in his favor? Is anyone giving that sort of thing any consideration when thinking about Pat's candidacy?

I was coming in to say the Lavar Ball entrance and then everything he did/said was the greatest thing ever. But now I gotta watch that ladder match. I've only see one Carmella match; the Backlash 2016 6 way with Becky, Nikki Bella, Alexa Bliss, Natalya & Naomi. So I don't really have any thoughts about her flushed out, but I did enjoy her heel character work and thought she had potential. So I'm glad to see Stacey had positive things to say about her and the match.

Hahahaha. Nobody is cool enough to put Ahmed Johnson #2. Its not possible. But really, I just wanted a better sense of how long some of these folks were in WWE. I'm someone who generally favors Peak over Longevity. "Longevity" really only matters to me in terms of "what did they do with that longevity?" I'm not going to guarantee Jim Neidhart or Kane a spot just because they were around for a long time. But its good to have a reminder that when it comes times to consider Arn Anderson, that its just a 2 year run.

So thank to cagematch.net and Cannabliss, the recreational pot shop near my place, I give you the nominee's with the years they appear in the WWE.

I had a question regarding Vince McMahon's candidacy. Soup said: and this I still haven't really decided how I will weigh "promos, out of ring character work, and memorable moments" vs in ring work (how I approached GWE). But I'm just curious, with commentary out as a criteria, what are we considering the beginning of Vince's candidacy? Does it start with the Montreal Screwjob/solidification of the Mr McMahon character? Or later when he has his first match in 1999? Or do "Welcome to WrestleMania III!" and "Stand Back!" count as a Memorable Moments? Serious question because Vince is tricky. He was an on screen presence forever and should definitely be nominated under the criteria. But given the criteria he wouldn't be nominated until 1999 when he finally had a match. Up until then he was still in Cornette/Jimmy Hart/Grand Wizard mode. I ask because if I end up considering promos, character work, memorable moments etc, Vince's placement could be radically different based on an 11/97 or 1/99 start date and he's the only nominee I can think of without a clear defined start of his candidacy and given the criteria, he could theoretically be a major candidate.

It would depend on his running mate. If it was Kate McKinon or Neil Degrasse Tyson, I'd be all in. Short of that

Of all the Trump related news I've...freebased?, this article about Linda probably made me the least angry since....I dunno, time no longer exists as it once did. Then I got to the last sentence and I'm back to But anyway. Linda has kept a low profile thus far which is definitely a positive in this day and age. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/06/linda-mcmahon-complains-of-white-house-bottleneck-239164

Piper is another one I'm going to be really high on.

Someone should go above and beyond and give us the years each nominee was/is in WWE for some perspective. The compartmentalizing careers is going to be the hardest part for me.

Greg Valentine is going to do really really well on my ballot.

1. Rey Jr 2. Randy Savage 3. Terry Funk/Chainsaw Charlie 4. Sasha Banks 5. Wasn't Perro Aguayo in a Royal Rumble once? But seriously, I did have a question about criteria. Should I view them as equal, or is it acceptable if I put more emphasis on say Longevity or Memorable Peak Matches than I do Promo Skills? Additionally, one question about Non-Wrestlers. The Rules in regards to Non Wrestlers Say: "Non wrestlers ARE eligible if nominated, but you should score and rank them accordingly with the NJPW system, specifically when it comes to workrate or matches" and "However, only on screen performance should be considered. Time spent as a booker, trainer, coach or agent should NOT be factored in." I was wondering about commentary? Should I be thinking about the 1992 Royal Rumble when considering Bobby Heenan for example?

I'm debating whether or not to participate. My biggest WWE gaps are from when WWE was actually really good. I just kinda want Rey Jr to get another #1 vote. I wanted to point out that Kofi Kingston made your top 35 WWE wrestlers in GWE. With an extra 18 months can Kofi crack the top 30???

Also, awesome job gordi laying out where NJPW would be if Fujinami left. I look at that company and see almost no hope with Inoki, Hoshino & Sakaguchi on top in 85 and no one to bridge the gap to the 3 Musketeers era. Presumably Fujinami in UWF makes them a bigger success which either smooths ego issues or at least builds a successful enough company that they would just kick Sayama to the curb and go forward. If Fujinami jumps to All Japan, does he stick around with Yatsu or jump back with Choshu? Although the UWF guys jumped back in relatively short order and Choshu was right behind them, you have to wonder just what shape NJPW would be in and whether those guys would want to jump back. If Fujinami jumps and they lose TV, they're fucked. Inoki wasn't Hogan in 1995 or anything, but this wasn't his peak as a draw so I'm not sure how that company draws. Maybe if Fujinami jumps to UWF, not only does that promotion stay afloat, but maybe Choshu jumps there (I dunno if his issues with Maeda go back to their original time together in NJPW). I know gordi said you either turn Sakaguchi or build around major foreigners, or both. And yeah, I imagine Brody & Abby would both come in. But I"m not sure how successful that option would be with Choshu in AJPW and Fujinami in UWF or AJPW. Isn't it basically a nostalgia company at that point? Yeah you go after Hogan & Andre for as many dates as possible, but this is all in the middle of WWF expansion/Rock n Wrestling so you aren't getting those guys regularly. Really Inoki's only move is throw as much money at Jumbo as possible. 84 was a little too early to build a promotion around Tenryu. If NJPW held on until 86, maybe you go after Tenryu and bank on Tenryu vs Inoki to reignite your promotion.

If Fujinami was going to leave NJPW, its hard to pick which company I'd rather he wind up in. Fujinami was awesome working against all the UWF guys in the NJPW vs UWF feud. The one Maeda match was a classic of course. We never got a singles match against Fujiwara in the 80s. Getting the opportunity to have multiple singles matches against those guys, great Sayama, as well as young Takada & Yamazaki would have been awesome, Fujinami was already a great pro style mat worker as well as one of the most gifted athletes of the late 70s & 80s so it is pretty easy to imagine him being able to adapt well to the shoot styles concepts UWF was figuring out. Also, UWF 1.0 was much closer to BattlArts than RINGS. It is definitely an environment 1984/85 Fujinami would have excelled in. Actually, Fujinami would have been the most established drawing card in the company (you could argue for Sayama here I suppose) so you can presume he would be able to exert at least some influence on the stylistic leanings of the new promotion/style. I guess the point is, Fujinami in UWF working 20ish minute singles matches regularly with Fujiwara, Maeda, Sayama, Takada, Yamazaki & Kido would have been phenomenal. On the other hand, jumping to All Japan you've got Fujinami vs Tenryu, Hansen, Jumbo. Do I even have to go on? Holy fuck. Fujinami vs Prime Hansen? Holy shit. Does Baba keep Fujinami separate from Choshu or is he part of the Army? Instead of Choshu/Yatsu vs Jumbo/Tenryu, is it Choshu/Fujinami? Or is it a 3 team feud with Fujinami & Kengo Kimura (assuming he jumps to) in the mix with what we got? Fujinami vs Baba. As much as I love the idea of Fujinami doing shoot style, he was one of the (at worst) 5 best wrestlers of the 80s already in reality. One of the things that made Fujinami so great at is peak was his athleticism. Fujinami's tope might be the most spectacular signature spot of the 80s and I can't imagine he'd be doing that against Maeda in UWF1.0 or any of his fantastic rope running spots. As I said above, Fujinami was one of the best all around athletes of his generation, so I'd almost hate to see a stripped down/slowed down version of him. It definitely helped Sayama's work. But its hard to imagine a better version of 1980s Tatsumi Fujinami that the one that existed in a pro style setting. I just close my eyes and imagine him hitting Stan Hansen with a tope and I can't help but think that Fujinami in All Japan would have been the best. Although his inevitable serious of 60min draws vs Jumbo would have been disappointing. But maybe he gets the AWA title run instead of Jumbo giving us Fujinami vs Bockwinkel, Martel, & Hennig as well as the aforementioned All Japan guys and previously unmentioned All Japan guys like Giant Baba (still had plenty left in the tank in 85), Ashura Hara, the next generation guys (Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi), all the great gaijin like Terry Funk, Terry Gordy, etc. Shit, 1988 Fujinami vs John Tenta would have been great. I'm generally happy with what we got. But FUCK, some of these matches would have been incredible. What would you rather watch in the mid-late 80s? Fujinami vs Fujiwara or Fujinami vs Hansen?

Matt, who was the best at working on the apron before the hot tag? Isn't that the real question.

Loving these "What If" threads. I figured I'd toss out a pretty major Japanese option: What if Tatsumi Fujinami left New Japan Pro Wrestling in 1984? Here's some background from Meltzer's 1996 G1 Climax/History of New Japan WON. Can New Japan survive? Does Fujinami become the undisputed GOAT by going to UWF and having singles rivalries with Fujiwara, Maeda, Sayama etc? If he picks All Japan do you put him in a group with Choshu or do you keep the rivalry going? How in the hell can New Japan survive?

Bumping this thread because comparing dissimilar wrestlers is more fun than the usual Misawa vs Kobashi or Casas vs Santo questions. So I figured I'd throw some comps out there. Ricky Morton or Volk Han? Rey Mysterio Jr or Genichiro Tenryu? Daniel Bryan or Jumbo Tsuruta? Low Ki or Brock Lesnar? Necro Butcher or Harley Race?

Oh fuck yeah! Thanks Zeb! Everyone needs to watch that match ASAP edited to thank Zeb instead of Truth because I'm apparently not firing on all cylinders today. But the point stands. Everyone watch that match right away!

Forgive my ignorance but how does one go about seeing this match?

I'm good at masking my crazy Really though, and I think it kinda comes out in my list, I prefer brawls and spectacles to the sort of classic world title match that Bock vs Hennnig is.Just glancing at my list...I don't see any US based World Title matches in the top 100. I haven't rewatched any Crcokett stuff so that plays a role for sure. If I had to rank "title match styles" generally I'd say: 1. Lucha 2. Japanese 3. US I was gonna say that BOck has my top 2 US world title matches...but I have Flair vs Kerry 8/15/82 at #103 113 ain't bad. If Tamura didn't exist and New Japan ran more singles & tags instead of giant 10 man matches all the time, Bock vs Hennig would've been a shoe in (I'm gonna go ahead and blame the god awful commentary in Bock vs Hennig making me lowball it) I want everyone who has the 1991 yearbook to go back and watch this though: 9. El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas 5/17/91 WWA This was both staring me in the face and came out of nowhere when I watched it. With these two you always hear about 1987 and 1997. But holy shit this is right there with them. Its a title match, but I actually see it as the bridging the gap match between the 87 and 97 apuestas matches. They aren't kicking each other full bore in the face like in 1997. But there is a beautiful violence to the mat work you don't always see in title matches. I feel like Negro Casas must have been a huge UWF2.0 fan at this time because this is the shoot styliest lucha match possible. Most obvious hidden gem match ever. It is Santo vs Casas. Of course its a classic. WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME!?

Obviously this is the 100 best matches after all of the Ken the Box matches. That's implicit in all of our lists I thought?

My highest rated Bock matches are 112. vs Martel 9/20/84 113. vs Hennig 11/21/86 (60min draw) So he just missed out. Blame New Japan's multi man matches

Figured I'd update mine as well since I've made it through my list of 90s matches to watch. This is really different from my earlier list, but is much closer to something I'm happy with.