elliott

I need to catch up and read the last couple of pages, but I just watched Goto vs Shibata finally. I definitely liked it more than Omega vs Okada. Really any criticisms I'm going to have are going to come back to the trappings of the style at large. The sort of delayed selling they do annoys me. Honestly I can totally look past a spot like "wrestler x eats a german suplex but pops right up and hits a lariat then they both sell" if it happens rarely. But when it happens over and over again it annoys the fuck out of me. But that sucks and is kinda like criticizing Daniel Bryan for his "backflip, hit the ropes, duck a clothesline, hit a lariat spot." I get it and understand the criticism, but they're just going to do that there's no getting around it. You're either ok with it or not. However, I really enjoyed the match. There were even aspects of it like the finish that took a trope of modern Japanese wrestling that I can't stand (the standing exchanging strikes) and made it so compelling and great that it was a real highlight. Take Omega vs Okada for example. I thought their trading elbows spot in the finishing stretch, which the crowd totally ate up, was a completely forced spot that came out of nowhere and really struck me as "Oh shit, we forgot to do the elbows, lets trade elbows" and I thought broke up the flow of the finishing stretch. Goto vs Shibata used the standing trading strikes spot to build directly to the finish and it was utterly spectacular. Totally fit in with what they were doing. Really weird match for me to watch because there were times were I thought "Goddamn this is awesome" and other times were I was like "Oh, that's fucking annoying." More awesome than annoying for sure. There's no way I'm watching the Tanahashi match.

I second Phil's Futen recommendations. That Ono vs Ikeda match is must see shit.

I'm rewatching the phenomenally great 9/10/88 Puerto Rico show and thinking about potential WON HOF candidates from Puerto Rico. Based on very limited knowledge, it seems like Hugo Savinovich would be a really strong candidate in the non-wrestler category. I know it took forever for Colon to make it in and guys like Abby & Brody who are in made a big impact in Puerto Rico, but I just think its weird watching a bunch of footage and seeing enormous crowd after enormous crowd that are hotter than any other crowds in wrestling has only one full timer in the hall of fame. We all know the HOF is pretty whack, but its a great excuse for Boricua to teach us all about Hugo Savinovich. It seems like he wore a lot of different hats in an obviously successful promotion. He does spanish & english commentary. I don't know how involved he was in production, but he seems pretty involved. I'd like to know more about that if possible. He has the awesome El Profe match so he looks like a good worker. I just don't know how often he actually worked. Teach me about Hugo.

I can't seem to find it online in the usual places at the moment. I'll keep looking and watch it when it pops up.

I don't understand why people apply these kinds of tags to Omega. He's a gifted athlete with an intense commitment to his craft and a specific charisma that really lands with some people. But I don't see him altering the form in any radical ways. I'm interested to read more detailed arguments along those lines. Totally agree with this. I mean, I don't even watch the promotion regularly and can't recall ever having seen Omega work before. But this was not even close to the experience I had seeing someone like Johnny Saint work for the first time that was so far removed from the wrestling I was familiar with that it was a pretty mindblowing moment. That was just a really long match with lots of nearfalls and counters. Are people really talking about it "altering the form?" It basically met my expectations in terms of how they were going to work the match. How is this guy different from Seth Rollins? He hits harder?

This last page has had me dying laughing. I'm currently in the middle of a rewatch project trying to figure out my 5 star and 4 3/4 star matches so I can add to that thread. I'm watching stuff that placed well on dvdvr 80s sets, stuff from loss' top 500 of the 90s list, old dvdvr "best of 90s" lists, the bowdren 80s list, matches already named in the 5 star thread, shit that I already knew I really really liked. Etc. I'm nowhere closed to finished and I have 111 matches rated at 5 stars. This is yall's hobby. You should like it more.

You should watch it as a social experiment?

I think the heat was outstanding during the finishing stretch. Insane off the charts heat for the finishing run. But there were loooooong stretches in the match where the crowd was sitting and waiting for the next huge spot. And in a match that long it really added up and was really noticeable. I kept laughing to myself for what seemed like an eternity "Well, Meltzer may think this is 6 stars, but no one there live does." I scrapped that joke during the finishing stretch because there's no doubt they were into it then. I'll give Goto vs Shibata a shot later today. I can't recall having seen them before.

FIgured this would be timely. Omega vs Okada is getting greatest match of all time praise from some. Others didn't like it at all. Whether folks agree on Omega vs Okada or not, we can all agree there have been some fucking awesome matches at the Tokyo Dome over the years. What was the best match you've seen at the dome. If its different from the best match, whats your favorite Dome match ever?

Watched the main event because I saw the "best match ever" and that Dave's 6 stars wasn't a typo but a real thing. I've made it all the way through one Okada vs Tanahashi match, but I usually give up midway through. I've never seen a Kenny Omega match. While saying up front I didn't like the match, I could see why people who dig the style would. There was a ton of action, near falls, and some truly incredible highspots. Both guys displayed sensational athleticism and conditioning. It was long as fuck but while not really liking it as a whole, the match didn't really drag because of how much stuff they were doing. There was a spot near the end that I really loved. It was either a rainmaker counter by Omega or Omega was setting up for a rainmaker. Anyway, instead of throwing the clothesline, Omega hit that giant knee to the face and Okada did the old Kawada slumping knockout sell of it. That was great and was my one "Oh fuck yeah" moment of the entire match. I don't want to be all old man yelling at the cloud, but I suppose I can't help it. In a lot of ways this match served as a good reminder why I don't follow modern New Japan. I'll very rarely watch one of these hugely pimped matches and often find myself thinking "Well that was something. I don't want to watch the other match on this show everyone liked. I'm gonna watch this Santo match instead" and then I forget about modern New Japan again. There was lots of great stuff, but none of it really seemed to matter and that was reflective in the fact that the crowd response to the match. (Pausing momentum briefly, I see Dylan literally just made a post about the crowd. Damnit. I'll soldier through my point nonetheless). Other than the big holy shit spots, the crowd was pretty damn quiet for the first...like 35 minutes of the match. I'm not going to say they were shitting on the match because they were right there to pop big for every big spot. Before sitting back down to politely watch. They came alive and were nuts for the finishing stretch. But it didn't have that buzz you get from great crowds. Seems like a weird nitpick on the match granted, but for something getting "Greatest match of all time" praise I'd want the crowd to at least be able to match the sustained heat of something like Rock n Roll Express vs Dirty White Boys. I agree about the first half of the match being mostly filler. Nothing was particularly memorable which is a shame because its not like they were pressed for time. "Limb work!" is a cliche in some ways for fans like me and there are plenty of ways to build a match without working over a leg. But I do wish they had chosen something. I'd be less bothered by mediocre arm work thats blown off later in the match than something like Omega selling the ddt on the outside as a knockout blow 7 minutes into a 50 minute long match. The amount of counters is ridiculous. I know that's part of the style and so its an unfair criticism. But as someone who doesn't watch this stuff all the time, you can't help but notice it. On the one hand, it makes sense. Every move requires a ton of setup so there's more opportunities for counters. But I hate that. For example, Okada can't just clothesline a guy. He has to casually (SO FUCKING CASUALLY*) apply the rear waist-lock, grab an arm and dosey-doe his opponent into the clothesline. Instead of knocking your head off with an out of nowhere clothesline, Okada has created this convoluted move that gives his opponent a elevated number of counter opportunities. From a "kayfabe/wrestling as sport" perspective, it was really dumb of Okada to focus all of his time perfecting that as his signature move instead of a traditional Stan Hansen style "it can come from anywhere" lariat. Same thing with Omega's angel wing whatever finisher that he couldn't execute because he couldn't sufficiently weaken Okada enough to execute the 5 different steps it takes to even get his opponent into position for his finisher. That shit is ridiculous. It isn't specific to this match or these wrestlers. Its the modern style at large. *Just had to separate this. WTF is up with Okada's rainmaker attempts? Is it that casual all the time? Every attempt looked like it was in slow motion. I've got no problem with a clothesline finish. I thought the dragon suplex off the top was one of the dumbest spots ever. Another modern wrestling trope I hate is the assisted top rope move that its just a long balancing act before they do a back flip together or whatever. And people call Lucha choreographed. I know, its ridiculous. Anyway, that was bad enough and then the spot itself was just incredibly reckless and stupid. I know wrestling is dangerous and this is NJ's biggest match of the year and you have to do memorable shit. But come the fuck on. To make it even more ridiculous, the commentator literally said "Years from now when he's having neck fusion surgery, he'll think of this match." Which I couldn't believe. What a horrible comment on so many levels. I could write a book on everything wrong with that comment. Just shameful. Anyway, too make matters worse, not only did the dragon suplex not play into the finish on any level it was only there to serve as a nearfall in the moment (making the neck fusion comment all the worse) as Okada was quickly back on offense. Just as I was thinking "Oh, so this is like a long and terrible version of Kanemoto vs El Samurai from 97 and that was their take on the meaningless/irresponsibly dangerous reverse top rope rana," Omega hit the standing reverse rana and I laughed and laughed. Anyway. Sorry to shit on this match right after Quentin's great post praising the match which followed up everyone else shitting on it. I just finished it and wanted to get my thoughts out there since it is getting such praise in some corners. I certainly don't think it is the best match ever or even really a great match. But that's almost entirely due to personal bias. I can see why people who like this style would love this match. I don't regret watching it, because its not like I actively hated it like something like Shane vs Brock. But I couldn't possibly watch wrestling like this all the time. One or two matches every few years is more than enough. But really, if that's my last Okada match, I'm cool with that.

This is my recollection from watching at the time. Especially in 2001 after Guerrero & Bucanero turn on Satanico. Most weeks you get a 12-18minute long brawling trios match. Its almost like the lucha version of Moondogs vs Fabs with a bunch of really tight/efficient brawls that are all wildly entertaining. I gotta jump in on this project!

I have a nasty cold and am heavily medicated. So this will be insane person word salad... You know how Meltzer and really lots of people, like to joke about wrestling being 10-15 years behind the times. I always think about that when I watch an 80s set and go nuts about how great it is. But looking around at music, tv, movies, fashion, etc. the 80s were the worst. THE WORST. But that's my favorite wrestling decade. So if you add that with the idea that wrestling is 10-15 years behind the rest of the pop culture world, 80s wrestling is actually the wrestling equivalent to all the awesome music and movies that came out in the late 60s & 70s. So if you think about why wrestling is so shitty and forgettable right now. Think about it in terms of the 10-15 year idea. Wrestling is at the peak of "reality TV." You guys got 10 more years before wrestling enters the Game of Thrones, Mad Men, Breaking Bad "everything is holy shit amazing" era. Hold on for dear life you' poor bastards. You're in the middle of The Simple Life and you haven't even made it to Jersey Shore. Back to nyquil. Carry on.

I'm currently watching/re-watching highly regarded stuff to figure out a list of 5 star & 4 3/4 star matches for that thread. I want to finish that. Finally watch the PDX Set that I keep putting off. Watch any other potential 80s sets that might be released this year (fingers crossed). Really dive into European Wrestling. I've watched a few things lately and not-surprisingly really dig it. The French Catch stuff I especially want to watch since that Cesca vs Catanzaro match was earth shattering. WOS I'm excited for but I don't know if I can watch any Young David matches. Its too much of a mindfuck looking at that guy before the steroids. I also kinda want to run through as much or all of CMLL TV from 2000-2003ish most of which I got to watch at the time and was the best wrestling in the world at the time.

Boom Really good match. Satanico was amazing in this era working with the next generation.

I watched Satanico vs Cochisse again within the last two or so months and would probably have it in my all time top 10. I compared it to Flair vs Steamboat, but that deserves an explanation because there's an implication to comparing something to Flair vs Steamboat. Satanico vs Cochisse isn't some decade running feud with a dozen terrific singles matches on tape. It is a single match. If I had to compare any lucha rivarly to the Flair vs Steamboat rivalry, I would point to Santo vs Casas. When I compared Satanico vs Cochisse to Flair vs Steamboat, I mean to suggest that I view it as the pinnacle of the style. Satanico vs Coshisse is to Lucha Title matches as Flair vs Steamboat (pick whatever match you think is best) is to NWA title matches. If you asked "Whats the perfect NWA title match?" my gut reaction would be "WrestleWar" if you asked "Whats the perfect lucha title match?" my gut reaction would be "Satanico vs Cochisse." Its not a defining feud in the way Flair vs Steamboat or Dory vs Brisco or Misawa vs Kawada is. But I view it as a singularly defining match if that makes sense? Also agree with all the stuff OJ says about not knowing if its the best Satanico title match or if other guys had better title matches due to lack of footage. Its also interesting to note, and I assume I learned this from OJ's lucha history lesson thread, that Cochisse was actually more well known for bloody brawls than as a title match/technical worker.

5 Stars. This is the tag match you review in the next post? I want to watch it just for that.

Its easier to get away with saying we shouldn't have "Saturday Night Live" than we shouldn't have "journalism"?

When you consider how the table was set up, the angle at which Sasha was thrown at the table, Sasha's physical size, the fact that Charlotte was hitting the ropes for the natural selection as Sasha was rolling off, and you know, our old friend Science, I think they weren't trying to break that table. They also got a pretty big pop using and not breaking the table when Charlotte shoved the table into Sasha's throat pinning her against the cage. So there's an example of a table being used extremely effectively, not breaking, and getting a pop from the crowd. edit: But this thread is about TLC. Sorry for derailing.

I think its more likely he's butt hurt about being made fun of and he doesn't believe in free speech.

Its hilarious that people still think they were trying to break that table in Sasha vs Charlotte. Physics say hello.

Super disappointing class. I guess I'd say I'm glad no luchadores fell off the ballot but that's just trying to find something.

DId anyone fall off from the 15 year rule?

I was under the impression that New Japan has always called their "style" of wrestling "Strong Style." In the 80s and 90s Meltzer and WON readers would often refer to UWF/UWFi/RINGS as "Strong Style," but they were wrong.

One of the Lawler vs Dutch matches, I wanna say the no-dq match has one of the greatest spots in wrestling history where Lawler puts his head down early for a backdrop, Mantell goes to kick him, but Lawler was playing possum and moved out of the way. Mantell's whiff on the kick opened him up to a huge Lawler punch. Such an awesome spot because we all know that "put the head down to early on a backdrop" transition and Lawler used that to his advantage.

So sorry to read this. RIP Adam.