ohtani's jacket

I wouldn't put the '88 bout in the same league as the '86 mask match or the '92 title bout. Both matches are really high end Santo, though.

I just watched this. To my untrained philistine eyes it went something like this: Kick - kick - submission attempt - Commentator cums in his pants - Crowd pops. Rinse repeat for 14 minutes until one of them actually submits. Didn't seem to have any sort of psychology to it at all to me, felt like the last 10 minutes of your typical Cena match only trade the finishers and false finishes for submission attempts. To me this lacked a lot of elements that I associate with pro wrestling. Namely: - Rope running - Collar and elbow tieup - Throws of any kind - Standard strikes that aren't kicks, like the reverse knife edge, forearm smash, or similar I would like fans of this style to answer the following questions: - What specifically do you like about this match? - Tell me about the pyschology, why isn't it like your typical modern WWE style false finish fest? - When you watch these matches do you feel like you are watching pro wrestling? Can you flick from something like this to a normal US-style match or, say, an All Japan match without feeling jarred in any way? - Why would you watch this over UFC? Aside from the skill level and technique, I like the match because it's exciting. It's not really that mat heavy compared to what both men were capable of. Instead, they worked an all-action bout where both guys continuously went for the knockout or submission. Watching the two best guys go full throttle is a hell of a spectacle. They could have worked a slower, more methodical, more mat based contest, but Han liked to entertain folks and Tamura was a perfect foil because of his supreme conditioning and athleticism. As far as the psychology goes, it depends on which definition of psychology you use. People used to belief that psychology implied a logical progression to a match (what we might call the build or order of spots.) In that respect, there's more psychology than your average pro-wrestling match because it's built around clear patterns of attack/defence/counter attack and there's a clear framework to the rules. Loss mentioned the crowd; you can hear them pop every time the fighters attack because they know that a single correctly applied submission can end the fight. They also pop for a counter and even for a ropes break, which they know is a points victory for the aggressor. I don't believe those crowd reactions would occur without there being any psychology. It's simple a sports based psychology, or fight based psychology, rather than standard pro-wrestling psychology. Which isn't to say that you can't break it down in pro-wrestling terms, but clearly if your view of psychology is based on heel/face dynamics, character work, morality plays and human drama, you're not going to get too much out of a fight based psychology unless the match is suitably epic, which I don't think Han/Tamura is (maybe as a trilogy, but not the 1/97 fight by itself/) You can get to know Han and Tamura more by watching their fights, but all that really gives you is a bit more characterisation. It does help them to be more likeable, though. Han, in particular, is a likeable guy once you get a broader picture of how unique he was. I always thought the idea of a Russian Sambo master doing worked bouts in Japan was the equivalent of a martial arts master doing magic tricks at a party. And like I said, he was a showman and an entertainer despite being legit better than just about everybody in the promotion. So, the ending and the celebration, carries a bit more weight if you know and like the guy. Of course I feel like I'm watching pro-wrestling. I see it as an alternative to traditional pro-wrestling, and I think it's the highest form of Japanese pro-wrestling, but it's still pro-wrestling. It's simply another genre of pro-wrestling and I can switch between genres the same way I do with music, comics or films. I might not always be in the mood for shoot style, and like Graham Crackers there may sometimes be a flow on effect where it makes other styles of mat work seem weak, but I can switch pretty freely. I've watched K-1, PRIDE, shoot style, Shooto, Pancrase, UFC, boxing and sumo in the past. I don't see why you can't enjoy worked combat sports at the same time as real combat sports. I don't watch pro-wrestling as an alternative to real combat sports. I enjoy both. Besides, Tamura vs. Han doesn't look much like UFC.

UWF booking was like that too. Wins and losses mattered in the overall context of whether the fighters had a winning record, but they didn't matter as much on a fight to fight basis. The cards were never determined by the results of the previous show. Tamura did eventually go over Maeda and was positioned as the top star, but it wasn't a perfectly booked ascension. I think it's important to remember rhat Japanese fans often care more about how a guy fights in a loss than whether he's dominating, Maeda was still posirioned as the ace of sorts when Tamura jumped, and he was unlikely to be a made man from day one. If you're looking for a pro-wrestling narrative you're flat out of luck. I admit to being perplexed at times. But I think big picture Tamura rose to the top.

This wasn't a bad match by any means, but they really should have left this issue dead and buried in 1994. There was no point dragging it up again five years later. The dynamic worked well in '93-94 when Hashimoto was a rising star and Tenryu an established one, but Hashimoto as the Man vs. Tenryu the aging vet doesn't pack the same punch. Speaking of punches, was it just me or was Tenryu modeling himself after Terry Funk during this run? Every time he threw a punch it reminded me of Terry. The finish didn't really match my notion of Hashimoto being the Man. I guess post G-1 Climax 1998 he was never at that level again booking-wise. Physically, he had it all over Tenryu so it was hard to buy him jobbing.

Genichiro Tenryu vs. Shinya Hashimoto (6/8/99) This wasn't a bad match by any means, but they really should have left this issue dead and buried in 1994. There was no point dragging it up again five years later. The dynamic worked well in '93-94 when Hashimoto was a rising star and Tenryu an established one, but Hashimoto as the Man vs. Tenryu the aging vet doesn't pack the same punch. Speaking of punches, was it just me or was Tenryu modeling himself after Terry Funk during this run? Every time he threw a punch it reminded me of Terry. The finish didn't really match my notion of Hashimoto being the Man. I guess post G-1 Climax 1998 he was never at that level again booking-wise. Physically, he had it all over Tenryu so it was hard to buy him jobbing.

Genichiro Tenryu/Shiro Koshinaka vs. Satoshi Kojima/Hiroyoshi Tenzan (1/4/99) I've seen about as much of this Tenryu/Koshinaka team as I need to. For me this put to bed the idea that any and all Tenryu is worth watching. It's not that he was bad in this. He just couldn't stem the flow of late 90s shittiness. Tenzan and Kojima bludgeoned their way through the bout as you'd expect from two Japanese boofheads and there wasn't a single thing about them I'd consider interesting. The FIP segment on Tenzan was underwhelming from Tenryu and Koshinaka and poorly sold by the challenger. Kojima's hot tag lacked any heat and his no-sell of the diamond cutter led to a mini obsession where he hit the same move over and over again. (If it wasn't the diamond cutter, it was the lariat from behind.) Patchy finishing stretch, no real drama to the title switch, and Tenryu even did a ramp spot. C'mon, Tenryu. You're better than that.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 14 Dave Finlay & Dave Duran vs. Orig Williams & Gary Clwyd (Denbigh, taped 1988) Man, I love Dave Duran. I dunno if he ever reached his potential because of the state the business in, but he's the kind of thickset asskicker I keep hoping Drew McDonald will be. Most of this bout was Duran beating the crap out of Gary Glywd and then Finlay tagged in and just brutalised the kid. Orig was only really involved in the finish. For some bizarre reason he decked the ref and Finlay was able to capitalise. The yokels were upset, but what was their man thinking? Finlay and Duran were a fun combination. Giant Haystacks vs. Jamaica George (Unknown location, taped 1989) Was there anybody more committed to jobbing to Haystacks than Jamaica George? He took it so seriously he almost made an art form out of it. Kung Fu vs. King Kendo (Unknown location, taped 1985) Kung Fu against the fake Kendo Nagasaki. This is kind of like watching, I dunno, Marty Jannetty against fake Diesel. I really hate bouts like these where a boring big man is beating down a smaller man. No matter how hard Kung Fu sold it was never gonna make up for the fact that Kendo's offence sucked. Dour way to pass the time. Terry Rudge vs. Takayuki Iizuka (Merthyr, taped 2/4/92) Rudge still looked pretty good here. Iizkua came across like generic Japanese guy, but Rudge looked good working from above and below. Generic Japanese guy, but that was Rudge's lot. Only worth watching if you wanna see every bit of Rudge there is, but not bad. Ritchie Brooks vs. Cool Cat Jackson (Cage Match, Merthyr, taped 3/29/90) Jamaica George had changed his name to Cool Cat Jackson here for whatever reason. If ever there was a cage match that didn't require a cage then this was it. I can only imagine the reason they were in the cage was because once the ring crew put it up all of the matches had to be cage matches. Brooks tried using the thing, but they didn't know how to thwart each other's escape attempts properly and the finish was the single weakest finish I have ever seen in a cage. Jackson headbutt Brooks and walked out the door... Imported gimmicks! Not a good idea. Orig Williams, Gary Clwyd & Boston Blackie vs. Shaun South, Terry Rudge & Tony Francis (Caernarfon, taped 1988) Reslo six man tags sucked just as much as the ITV ones. This had some bizarre Thunderqueen like rules and was a total waste of a pretty fun heel line-up.

Genichiro Tenryu/Shiro Koshinaka vs. Shinya Hashimoto/Tatsumi Fujinami (12/4/98) This looked promising on paper, but it began with a loose mat exchange between Koshinaka and Fujinami and was uneven after that. Koshinaka really sucked in this with his stupid jitterbug wrestling style. I don't know if it was intentional or just a nervous infection, but it made everything he did look tentative and amateurish. Unfortunately, they worked a riff between him and Hashimoto instead of giving us more of what we want -- Tenryu -- and they also allowed him to kill the finishing stretch dead after a pretty cool hot tag where Hashimoto cut loose and did some fat man cleaning house. Fujinami was sloppy with age and Tenryu was a passenger again. His return to New Japan has been underwhelming without the inter promotional element behind it. He comes across as just another player and it's been listless to say the least.

Genichiro Tenryu/Shiro Koshinaka vs. Keiji Mutoh/Hiroyoshi Tenzan (10/18/98) And things just got awful. From a personal point of view I should know better than to watch a match with both Mutoh and Koshinaka in it, but I can cherry pick Tenryu later. For now, I'm taking a look at everything, and man "Mutoh hates Tenzan~! Tenzan hates Mutoh~! Neither wants to tag with each other" was done a million times better in Joshi, as was the spotfest to finish with. Tenryu could do little more than go with the flow. I think the deal breaker for me was when Mutoh was squatting and posing on the ramp, and deliberating about whether he should head back to the ring or leave his partner to the wolves. When he finally screamed and charged toward the ring, he couldn't actually run... he literally duck arsed his way to the rescue.

This was a pretty divisive match back in the day. It's strange how unimportant it seems these days. I guess it's like watching a favourite band go in a different musical direction. Moment to moment, there are a lot of interesting details and the selling is good, but the big picture doesn't have much sting to it. There's a bit too much of the Johnny Valentine/Wahoo McDaniel chop exchanges, and some of the stagger selling from those chop exchanges, particularly when they're on their knees wobbling and staring at each other, is as forced as any of the modern day cinematic storytelling tropes. Hashimoto was a fan of those kind of spaghetti western standoffs, though, and used them to great effect at times such as in the '95 G-1 final with Mutoh. I liked Tenryu breathing on his hand before launching into another round of chops, and I loved the spot where Hashimoto caught him coming off the top. Tenryu's selling is something to draw attention to. When you think of Ternyu, the first thing you think of his the poker face, and the arrogance and maybe some of the shitty heel mannerisms, but he also excelled at selling pain. And in many respects, it's Tenryu's selling that holds this together because it's really only Hashimoto breaking through Tenryu's defences that leaves you with anything to chew on and a bout that isn't as epic a threepenny opera as their previous bouts.

Genichiro Tenryu vs. Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/01/98) This was a pretty divisive match back in the day. It's strange how unimportant it seems these days. I guess it's like watching a favourite band go in a different musical direction. Moment to moment, there are a lot of interesting details and the selling is good, but the big picture doesn't have much sting to it. There's a bit too much of the Johnny Valentine/Wahoo McDaniel chop exchanges, and some of the stagger selling from those chop exchanges, particularly when they're on their knees wobbling and staring at each other, is as forced as any of the modern day cinematic storytelling tropes. Hashimoto was a fan of those kind of spaghetti western standoffs, though, and used them to great effect at times such as in the '95 G-1 final with Mutoh. I liked Tenryu breathing on his hand before launching into another round of chops, and I loved the spot where Hashimoto caught him coming off the top. Tenryu's selling is something to draw attention to. When you think of Ternyu, the first thing you think of his the poker face, and the arrogance and maybe some of the shitty heel mannerisms, but he also excelled at selling pain. And in many respects, it's Tenryu's selling that holds this together because it's really only Hashimoto breaking through Tenryu's defences that leaves you with anything to chew on and a bout that isn't as epic a threepenny opera as their previous bouts.

I'm having a hard time deciding whether big wrestling that's over the top is worse than detail work that is boring.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 13 Tony St Clair vs. Drew McDonald (Denbigh, taped 1988) The jury's still out on McDonald. He has the size and the tools to be a bruiser, but I haven't seen him put it all together yet. Given that Tony St. Clair in 1988 was a more than capable foil, this has to rate as a chance gone begging. Ray Crawley vs. Jacques Le Jacques (10/31/85) This was interesting to say the least. Jacques Le Jacques was this French guy they brought over to face Danny Collins. He looked like a relic from the 70s and wouldn't have looked out of place in the cast of Hair. Even more curiously, he kept going for the same leg attack, which had to have driven Walton bonkers. Arthur Psycho had a pretty good description of Crawley in the video: "In one corner, Ray Crawley, who would later wrestle under a mask as Spiderman. Here, he is a pasty man with a sensible haircut and moustache who looks like an insurance salesman. In fact I thought he'd wandered into the ring by mistake on his way to the toilet." Just one of those extraordinarily ordinary looking British wrestlers who don't seem like athletes at all. Both guys were pretty quick and the bout wasn't bad. Walton did his usual shtick of insisting that a foreigner can't speak a word of English, and this time when Brian Crabtree shoved the mic in JLJ's gob, Kent was spared the embarrassment of the guy being fluent in English. Pete and Danny Collins vs. Robbie Brookside/Steve Regal (1/5/88) This may as well have been a handicap match given how little Pete Collins was in the ring. Fairly standard action between these guys. Regal was still learning the ropes. Marty Jones vs. Tony St Clair (Llantrissant, taped 2/6/91) This was a lot better than I remembered it being. Jones had slowed down and put on a fair bit of weight, but he could still throw a vicious forearm and beat the shit out of St. Clair whenever St. Clair got in close. St. Clair was looking for takedowns and a more ground based approach and the result was a tasty contest between the two veterans. Probably one of those matches that works depending on your mood, but I liked this a lot. Johnny Saint vs. Chic Cullen (Llantrissant, taped 2/6/91) This was also good, and from the same show no less. This was much different from your standard Johnny Saint bout as Reslo by this stage had moved away from the Euro style and was employing a more universal wrestling style not dissimilar to the US style. So instead of dressing and undressing holds, Cullen dished out a methodical beating. Not used to that sort of style, Saint's selling was inconsistent and he kept instinctively going back to escape holds, but that made for an interesting contrast and a change from the usual Saint sleight of hand.

Psicosis vs. Santo's rep has fallen in recent years. MJH took it apart in a fairly convincing manner. I certainly don't think Casas was successful in every match, but the potential was there to deliver something like the Fiera match, which I think is above and beyond the standard Santo match. I can see the argument for Santo's consistency, though. I like a lot of the stuff from Santo's heel run particularly the summer feud with Felino in '97 where he wrestles somewhat differently from standard tecnico Santo. There was a bit of a Japan influence to his work at that time, or so it seemed.

Genichiro Tenryu/Shiro Koshinaka vs. Shinya Hashimoto/Junji Hirata (6/1/98) We fast forward a few years to see Tenryu reignite his feud with Hashimoto. It's a bit jarring how much older Tenryu has become, and takes some getting used to, though the lightning certainly didn't help. The match looked scuzzy in general, especially compared with those shows from the summer of '93 and their bumper crowds. You can always tell when you're watching post 90s peak Japan as it has a distinct look to it -- the workers are older or have filled out, the arenas are smaller or darkened, the crowds have shrunk, the action feels rehashed, and even the costumes seem less bright than before. You can probably chart the decline in Japanese wrestling by its visual look. Hashimoto and Tenryu were in full Wahoo McDaniel/Johnny Valentine mode here. It was cool, but not a patch on the WAR years. Wouldn't classify this as worth anyone's time.

a1wrestling was 13-15 years ago I would buy the shit out of a Sano comp. Williams loves bringing up that thread despite arguing in circles about a really stupid point -- that Sano "won" the 1989-90 Liger feud. The entire analogy about Sano being a ronin after the feud disn't make a lick of sense then and doesn't now, but if it's morphed into a metaphor for Sano being journeyman I guess that's fitting.

Regarding the above, PWFG was initially bankrolled by Hachiro Tanaka and the reason Funaki, Suzuki and Fuke quit was because Fujiwara wanted to send his wrestlers out to shows promoted by SWS, W*ING and Hamada's UWF. Once they lost Tanaka's backing, even Fujiwara himself was basically freelancing. I'm guessing that's why a few of his guys did RINGS dates.

Fujiwara and Maeda also had a match in '96. From memory, Maeda had a falling out with the UWF front office and was suspended for publicly criticising them. The other wrestlers initially took Maeda's side, but the plan to start a third version of UWF fell through. I don't think it was overly acrimonious. In fact, here are the prowrestlinghistory.com cliff notes (presumably from the Observer)

I see where you're coming from, and perhaps there's some truth to what you say, but in every style I follow there's a promotion I don't like. I'm pretty set in my ways about what good shoot style should be, and unfortunately the argument that it still works as pro-wrestling doesn't do much to sway me considering shoot style is meant to be an alternative to traditional pro-wrestling. Others may see it as an offshoot of traditional pro-wrestling, but I've always enjoyed it precisely because it's not conventional pro-wrestling. The way I see it, not enjoying shoot style because it's different from traditional graps and enjoying shoot-style lite because it works as pro-wrestling are two sides of the same coin. By the same token, I understand why UWF-i existed as an alternative to RINGS commercially, and why some people may enjoy it as an alternative to out and out shoot style, but it's hard for me to label it as good.

Don't always have to be different. With the right brawl they can be very similar. But Lucha can give the vibe of being a drunk cirque du soleil, whereas PR feels more like a drunk alley fight. Massive generalization? Yes, no question. Just the vibe that each gives off at times. The only real difference I can think of is that they bleed more in PR and do more gimmick matches. The styles seem like cousins to me. When they do the brawling I get it. But lucha has more to it than that. Haven't seen much else out of PR so can't comment there. Sticking with the brawling then, since "lucha" is the name for professional wrestling in Mexico and in fact made up of various different styles, I can't really understand how anybody who enjoyed Hansen/Colon so much, or thinks Colon is a guy worth investing more time in, would overlook or ignore the great lucha brawlers.

Don't always have to be different. With the right brawl they can be very similar. But Lucha can give the vibe of being a drunk cirque du soleil, whereas PR feels more like a drunk alley fight. Massive generalization? Yes, no question. Just the vibe that each gives off at times. The only real difference I can think of is that they bleed more in PR and do more gimmick matches. The styles seem like cousins to me.

What's the difference between Hansen/Colon and a lucha apuesta feud? Heck, what's the difference between Puerto Rico and lucha in general?

It did get a lot of praise in the Yearbook thread. But it needs wider acknowledgement.

Here we go, the end of the road as far as it goes with Ditch's hosting. I kicked back and enjoyed this with a beer. Why don't people talk about this more? Everyone talks about the 8/93 bout, but you never hear anything about this. The commentator made a big deal out of it being a special non-title match at first, which was kind of annoying, but everything from the stomach kick onward was amazing. Tenryu going into the tsupari attack and drawing a little blood hard way and Hashimoto countering with the enzuigiri over the top of Tiger Hattori's head was amazing. The crowd picked up on the lift in intensity and responded with a huge chant. From that point on, the match was on a knife's edge. When Hashimoto countered with that gut wrench suplex, I may as well have been there in the building in 1994. I'm so glad I watched this so close to the anniversary of Hashimoto's death. Even if this was non-title, after two losses to Tenryu it validated Hashimoto's claim to the ace position and the emotion was palpable after the pin and during the post-match promo. The stretch run was the stuff of dreams and the selling was sublime. Nearfalls and delayed selling can be manipulative when you don't bite on them and there's nothing at stake for you, but with a bit of lubricant and the desire to be drawn in they are as fresh as the day this was wrestled. Maybe I'd feel different about this if I wasn't half-cut, but I can't understand why this isn't talked about more in terms of blowoffs.

Here we go, the end of the road as far as it goes with Ditch's hosting. I kicked back and enjoyed this with a beer. Why don't people talk about this more? Everyone talks about the 8/93 bout, but you never hear anything about this. The commentator made a big deal out of it being a special non-title match at first, which was kind of annoying, but everything from the stomach kick onward was amazing. Tenryu going into the tsupari attack and drawing a little blood hard way and Hashimoto countering with the enzuigiri over the top of Tiger Hattori's head was amazing. The crowd picked up on the lift in intensity and responded with a huge chant. From that point on, the match was on a knife's edge. When Hashimoto countered with that gut wrench suplex, I may as well have been there in the building in 1994. I'm so glad I watched this so close to the anniversary of Hashimoto's death. Even if this was non-title, after two losses to Tenryu it validated Hashimoto's claim to the ace position and the emotion was palpable after the pin and during the post-match promo. The stretch run was the stuff of dreams and the selling was sublime. Nearfalls and delayed selling can be manipulative when you don't bite on them and there's nothing at stake for you, but with a bit of lubricant and the desire to be drawn in they are as fresh as the day this was wrestled. Maybe I'd feel different about this if I wasn't half-cut, but I can't understand why this isn't talked about more in terms of blowoffs.