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Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
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Good -- WCW Dangerous Alliance era produces probably the best period for television wrestling in company history (barring the NWA years.) Negro Casas jumps to CMLL and we finally get to see him work on a regular basis including a legendary feud against Dandy. 90s All Japan Women comes of age with their November Dream Rush show. Bad -- Wrestling hits a low in the US with the steroid trial. Pena's AAA deal with Televisa ends the golden era of 1989-92 lucha. Jumbo Tsuruta becomes ill. Ugly -- Ultimate Warrior vs .Papa Shango? The finish to Wrestlemania VIII? Rude vs. Chono?
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Negro Casas vs. Ultimo Dragon, UWA World Middleweight Championship, CMLL 3/26/93 This managed to both thrill and confuse me. The first fall was worked using the international currency for juniors matwork. Usually it would bother me that the matwork wasn't 'lucha enough,' but in this case it was being presented as an international title fight so it made sense for the work to be more universal. Ultimo wasn't that great at working holds from the top, but Casas provided enough movement to keep it interesting. I thought they missed a trick by not doing more stand-up as the match began with Ultimo breaking through Casas' defences and giving him two open handed strikes. It was a psychological game Ultimo was playing after Casas had pushed around his second, but if Ultimo had a clear advantage anywhere it was with his stand-up game, and I would have liked to have seen him challenge Casas there. On the mat, they could have done with a bit more intensity after the aggression that Ultimo started with, but it wasn't a bad fall. When they worked the ropes it was pretty as Ultimo was the most acrobatic worker in Mexico at the time. Casas copped a shiner either around the eye or on his cheekbone (it was hard to make out from the footage), and Ultimo finished him off with a lariat to the face that would be a head high tackle in rugby. The second fall I thought as begging for a quick response from Casas no matter how much I complained about that trope with the Villano matches. I thought the crowd were ripe for it, and the circumstances of the first fall coupled with the foul Casas decided to give the Dragon would have worked better as a narrative if Casas had taken a quick fall. Instead they worked quite a long second fall where Casas tried to methodically win the fall and Ultimo kept frustrating Negro by reaching the ropes. That frustration and a sense of fatigue creeping in are the only explanations I can think of for why Casas fouled Ultimo in the break between rounds. A lot of people in the Yearbook thread loved that moment and I can understand it being the type of thing people get excited for (lucha libre extraordinaria and all that), but to me it made no sense. If Casas had lost the second fall I could understand it as an act of cowardice/desperation. If he'd won the second fall in dominant fashion, I could understand it as going in for the kill or even rubbing Ultimo's face in it. I could even buy it as retaliation for the shiner. But the way they did it felt like cheap heat. The match already had a lot of heat and the crowd seemed to be behind Ultimo even though he wasn't a native. The rules of a title match are such that you just don't do that. You don't break those traditions. Casas would laugh in the face of all that as he was the type of rudo who loved to do outrageous things, but he wanted to show how worried he was about the fight he should have taken the first and dropped the second with all the momentum in the Dragon's corner heading into the third. My comments seemed justified by how dull Casas' continued submissions efforts seemed in opening the third caida. It wasn't until they dropped the holds completely and went to a series of Cassa bumps to the outside that things picked up again. Ultimo hit a tope between the ropes that could have been used in every highlights package for weeks and months to come, and later hit a beautiful pin point dropkick to knock Casas off the apron and set-up his quebrada. If you want to make a fair argument for Ultimo, he was a fantastic athlete. He wasn't a detail guy and didn't add all sorts of great little psychological touches, but man could he run, jump and move. In some people's eyes that may make him a slightly superior version of Octagon or Mascara Sagrada, but lucha needs these types to have the proper rudo vs. technico morality plays it thrives on. Let the rudos be the great performers. Casas was running on empty late in the third caida. His cheek was swelling up and he sold every move as though it was using up the last of his energy. He did this interesting spot where he climbed to the top and either slipped or collapsed and fell to the mat. Moments before he'd put his knees up on an Ultimo dive, and I guess the majority of workers would have fed their opponent the same transition or gotten them to pop up, but not Casas. It was an interesting spot. I'm not sure it really worked, but it was an insight into the thinking process and what he was trying to achieve by selling so much fatigue. Ultimo got the best nearfall of the match off a power bomb, but the age old complaint of slow ref counts was never truer than on the kick out here. Casas ended up countering with a mirroring power bomb of his own, which I didn't really love, the finish was excellent. Ultimo overwhelmed Casas with kicks, which you'll note I said he should have done from the start, and Casas couldn't block Ultimo's tiger suplex. The crowd popped big for Ultimo's title victory and he received a continuous ovation. There was a cool moment where he stood on the ropes and posed for his new adoring public. Casas was bitterly disappointed afterwards, but begrudgingly shook hands with the victor. If it isn't obvious by now, I didn't love this bout, but I did think it was a bout that a lot of new fans to lucha might appreciate as there was an effort to work an epic sort of title switch where the champion tried to chart his downfall through a growing sense of frustration and fatigue, and even a sense that he couldn't really live with his opponent's martial arts skills. Casas sold well and there was that epic feel to the match that you don't always get from lucha (and was certainly missing from Ultimo's title defence against Emilio.) It may not seem quite as epic to fans of other styles where large scale bouts are par for the course, but Casas was certainly trying here. The 'I don't know how to put this guy away' narrative didn't quite work for me, but I can see it working for others as it's really just a personal thing in regards to whether it gels with you. The biggest plus I can say is that it was interesting, which is good because there's nothing worse than being boring. Casas wasn't as individually brilliant as I expect from him, and I actually wondered at times if he wasn't in the best of conditions. Maybe that was just brilliant selling and I have no idea how good his performance really was, but he was busy taking a blow at times when there weren't a lot of eyes on him. He did have amazingly cool wrestling shoes. They looked like track shoes rather than wrestling boots. He should have sold them and made a mil. The match is a must-watch since it's one of the biggest title matches from Casas' 90s runs, so you should watch it and see how much your feelings differ from mine. It received unanimously positive feedback on the Yearbook thread from people who aren't quite as finicky about what they want from their lucha, or don't have quite as many quirks as yours truly, so queue it up and see how you feel.
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If this were a list of guys who've had an awesome match on multiple 80s sets he'd be a shoe-in.
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Yamada is a strange one. I like her in various matches, but I would never go out of my way to see her. Still, it's odd that a worker with as many great matches as she had on her resume would get so criminally overlooked. My guess is she lacks a punch outside of the Toyota feud and her famous tags w/ Manami. If her interpromotional singles matches had been a bit better she'd have a far better rep. I know in 2006 I wouldn't have taken her over the Takako Inoues or Cutie Suzukis of the world because of the roles they played. Too often Yamada's role was poor woman's Chigusa. The post-exodus GAEA stuff interests me a bit, but not that much if you know what I mean.
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All Japan Excite Series #1
ohtani's jacket replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in Publications and Podcasts
Age doesn't necessarily factor into seniority. Jumbo was Tenryu's senior because he started in AJPW in '73 while Tenryu started in '76.- 18 replies
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All Japan Excite Series #1
ohtani's jacket replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in Publications and Podcasts
I don't have time to add podcasts to my busy rotation, but I chucked this on. Parv is an entertaining man. Afterwards it flipped over to Titans and man is that entertaining. Anyway, Misawa's actions were the same sort of rebellion Choshu had shown against the hegemony the decade before. Most of the core All Japan fans were salary men (the Japanese name for white collar workers) who were part of the nenko jorestu seniority-wage system, so they automatically got the younger Misawa sticking it to his senior. I suspect there was a bit of a wish fulfillment fantasy going on. Later Kawada would also stick it to his senpai Misawa. Taue crossed over to Jumbo's side when Kabuki left for SWS just weeks after winning the tag titles with Tsuruta. I believe the explanation they gave the fans was that Jumbo asked Taue to join his group. As for pronunciation, it's not really pronounced SUE-ROO-TA, but it's a massively difficult name to pronounce correctly so just go with that.- 18 replies
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Favourite Santo opponent is a fun topic. I think Casas and La Parka would be in contention. Blue Panther. He had really good chemistry with Perro Aguayo Jr as well. That feels like a million years ago. Blue Demon Jr? I jest. Edit: Espanto had a couple of lengthy tags on UWA TV. I don't think Dr. Wagner Jr. y Espanto Jr. vs. Celestial y Coloso is on YouTube, but their match against Villano IV y V is.
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I gushed all over Satanico in my latest blog entry. If I were making my list tonight he would be number one.
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I don't mind giving Estrada credit when he deserves it like in the Stuka hair match -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-431-random-90s/ -- but he's been awful so many times. I hate that Cruz hair match more than any other lucha bout. I also really disliked the Satanico hair match, but I know Loss and other people like it. The La Fiera chain match is pretty good. I'd like to see his other Stuka match.
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Superstar Mal Sanders, can I learn to love a blue eye?
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in The Microscope
Supplementary Sanders! Mal Sanders vs. Pat Patton (1/8/87) Man, I'd noticed Sanders' premature balding in the feud against Grey, but he'd lost even more hair by the time '87 rolled round. Patton himself had a beer gut, and if you compare this match to how it would have looked in 1981 you've got a pretty vivid depiction of how far wrestling had fallen. Walton sounded completely jaded and could barely muster any enthusiasm. Loved the producer/director cutting from the first round to the fourth. Did anyone give a shit at this stage? Kid McCoy vs. Mal Sanders (7/22/87) This was the final of the Golden Grappler Trophy for 1987. Whoever booked Joint Promotions sure loved a good TV tournament. All they seemed to book was TV tournaments. Walton always seemed to push them as ongoing annual events, but by the time the next year ran round there'd be a whole bunch of different tournaments. The only tournament that seemed to last was the Royal Albert Hall Heavyweight Trophy Tournament, which in the 60s and 70s was a prestigious event. To be fair, the Golden Grappler Trophy was run in each of the final three years, but it was pretty lame. For some reason, maybe John knows, the semis were held in March and then the final was all the way in July. Richie Brooks had defeated Sanders in the first semi, but as injured and couldn't compete in the final. I can only assume they were waiting to see if Brooks would recover. Anyway, the one thing this had going for it as that the Bridlington crowd were hot. Sanders was pretty much in Ric Flair mode here -- begging off, jawing with the crowd, and taking dramatic corner post bumps. It wasn't exactly vintage WoS, but it riled the women up at ringside. Don't mess with Bridlington women that's all I can say. The place was ready to come unhinged at a Kid McCoy victory, but they wanted to do this shtick where it went to a points decision. McCoy still won, but they would've tore the roof off the sucker if he'd pinned Sanders. Why Joint routinely avoided booking payoffs like that is beyond me. Avoid the comments section of this match at all costs unless you want some insight into when submission wrestling is a turn on and when it's not. -
Watched a couple of the Jake/Garvin matches, and while they didn't change my opinion of Jake as a worker, they were really good TV bouts. It was like early pencils from a comic book artist where everything's still a bit rough. Jake's psychology was there for all to see, but he hadn't got things down pat yet and was playing around with stuff seeing what worked. He wore these sort of kickboxer pants and didn't have the same promo voice. plus he had a lot of backing away moves where he slithered around like a snake. His limbwork was good and Garvin was the man as usual. The mop top put me off a bit, but he was the same hard hitting SOB as the crew cut version. Man I love Garvin. I don't know how I'm going to separate him from the Hammer.
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Some suggestions if they interest you: Pre-1980s -- Michel Allary vs. Jack de Lassartesse (1/22/60) Joshi -- Mayumi Ozaki vs. Hiromi Yagi (3/3/96) 90s Lucha -- Pierroth Jr vs. Mogur (1/12/90) Europe -- Steve Veidor vs. Gwyn Davies (5/26/76)
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When did the IC title nose dive for you?
ohtani's jacket replied to Sidebottom's topic in Pro Wrestling
When Austin chucked it in the river. -
People who watch a whole bunch of modern wrestling are going to have blindspots in other areas, and the lists produced on the websites they frequent would also have flaws. It's impossible to produce a perfect list, and as with any project of this sort the merit is in the discussion and the discoveries people make along the way and not so much the final results. The point is to re-assess and re-evaluate how we look at workers ten years on. If there aren't enough modern or indy workers on it that tells you modern or indy workers weren't a big priority in 2016 just like a whole bunch of workers weren't in 2006.
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I love the Boss Man, and no matter what Parv tries to tell people he was better than Dibiase in the WWF, but from memory I liked Orndorff and Race as Hogan opponents more than the Big Boss Man.
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Breaking down the European WON HOF Candidates
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Pro Wrestling
I was thinking more along the lines of garnering support from outside the voter base, though come to think of it people are more likely to casually vote for Saint because they like his shtick. Probably not a good point on my part. I do think there's something missing from him in terms of being a workrate candidate that people from outside the region are drawn to or feel compelled to vote for, but it's probably something as simple as he didn't work North America or Japan in his prime. -
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The '86 series with a heel Mal Sanders is another feather in the cap of Grey. Just a tremendously fun series along the lines of say Regal/Sting ten years later.
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Superstar Mal Sanders, can I learn to love a blue eye?
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in The Microscope
Steve Grey vs. Mal Sanders (11/9/82) This was a one fall bout that was over before it had really begun, but again Grey showed he could fit it with just about anyone in the country and give them a career match. For the time that it lasted, this was an all-action affair with both men going all out to score the winning fall, and if it had continued at that pace it would have ranked among Sanders' top few bouts. I've got to say now though that I was surprised to see the lighter man Grey go over Sanders in a catch weight contest. When you're only on television a couple of times a year that can't do your reputation any good. Bobby Barnes vs. Mal Sanders (6/28/83) Bobby Barnes' image change in the early 80s has got to rank as one of the worst in wrestling history. Not many of you will understand what I mean by that so let me try to explain. Barnes was the ex tag team partner of Adrian Street and for a long time did the same gimmick as Street. He was a quality worker. Maybe not as good as Street, but excellent in his own right. Street left for the indies and was off TV for most of the 70s, so we have far more Barnes available than we do Street. He worked his exotico gimmick up until 1980, and I want to say into '81, then he cut off his long hair, returned it to its natural colour, grew a moustache, starting wear a t-shirt to cover his flab and mixed and matched an odd assortment of tights, trunks and boots. He changed his working style to more of a brawling rule-bending, put tints in his hair and basically looked like some punk version of the Bobby Barnes we used to know. He was a shell of himself in the ring as well. This was okay, but not engaging. Sanders got another cheap DQ win and seemed dead in the water in terms of what they planned to do with him. Jim Breaks vs. Mal Sanders (2/2/84) Criminally short five minute bout from some knockout tournament. Cruel tease of a possible Breaks/Sanders match. Mal Sanders vs. Steve Grey (9/16/86) Steve Grey vs. Mal Sanders (9/3/86) Steve Grey vs. Mal Sanders (10/15/86) This was a three match series from '86 that was one of the best things on television that year and another feather in Grey's cap. Sanders had turned heel by this stage and was doing this odd gimmick where he came to the ring in an American football helmet and jersey (complete with shoulder pads.) Don't ask me why. The first match I had actually seen before. Here's what I said about it at the time: Insightful! It was actually a pretty good match. Sanders was arguably a bit corny with his heel act, but it worked for me. In the first match from 9/3, he had beaten Grey by 2 falls to 0 and the 9/16 rematch was supposed to be a title bout for Grey's British Lightweight title. Instead, they decided to milk it for one more match by claiming that Sanders was over the weight limit. He won 2-0 again and trained down to the lightweight limit for what was a hugely entertaining title fight. Sanders had been doing this shtick where every time Grey tried to put him in his surfboard he'd force a break in the ropes. In a bit of inconsistent rule keeping, the referee was on his back about these tactics, and Grey milked it for all it was worth with surfboard teases and the inevitable submission. Women in the crowd were on their feet willing Grey to lift him in the surfboard and tensions were pretty high all round. For some reason, the president of the AWA Stanley Blackburn was in attendance to award the winner the belt. Walton managed to butcher his information in true Walton fashion. They pulled a bit of a Dusty finish at the end, and these two women, who I can only assume were Mal "Superstar" Sanders fans, approached the ring screaming at Grey that he still hadn't beaten Mal. Sanders to his credit was a pretty entertaining heel on a sort of Paul Orndorff level, but this was great television for '86 and another example of Grey bringing out the best in folks. -
What is Workrate? Does Workrate Matter?
ohtani's jacket replied to BillThompson's topic in Pro Wrestling
Workrate was never about who did the most stuff. It was about who did more stuff than Hulk Hogan or Riki Choshu or Perro Aguayo. I don't think you can properly explore the workrate concept without fleshing out what it was in opposition to. -
The Breaks trilogy is phenomenal and I forgot about the great Finlay bout. The rest of his Young David stuff is either incomplete or not as good and that includes bouts against some pretty good workers like Marty Jones, Pete Roberts and Clive Myers. The match where he comes back in '83 all roided up is completely surreal. I would take teenage Dynamite Kid over Young David on sheer talent. DK was excellent as a teen. His '83 bout with Jones smashes what Davey was capable of at the time. Davey had the longer career though with singles work in the big leagues. I remember being rather impressed by his first WCW run. The matches with Vader were good and the Regal bout was interesting.
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Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Katsuyori Shibata (9/21/14) * Their match in the G-1 was one of my favourites from the tournament and I liked this a lot as well. No, it wasn't five stars and probably wasn't as good as the tournament match either, but it was very good. * Tanahashi appears to have pared back his style in recent times. Not so many of the 30 minute epics anymore. Whether this is because of his physical condition I'm not sure, but it's rather noticeable. * Improved lock-ups appear to be a new staple of his work, but this was also the snuggest his work has ever looked. If he worked this tight the majority of the time his critics might have a higher opinion of him. Even his transition moves that people dislike looked stiff and his strikes were the best they've ever been. * The finishing stretch wasn't quite as dramatic as in the G-1, but it was far from excessive and that's a welcome relief. A few of the spots in the build didn't work so well, but the strikes were consistently good all match long and I have a hard time believing that anyone who preaches violence in wrestling wouldn't enjoy this. It wasn't perfect, but it was violent. * Again, Tanahashi delivers a good match. It's beyond a trend now. You'd have to say the guy is a pretty good worker.He's more of a Shawn Michaels/Keiji Mutoh/Manami Toyota vein of good worker than say Toshiaki Kawada, but a good worker nonetheless. * Around *** 3/4
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Japanese fans pop for kickouts because nearfalls and counting along are part of the show for them. In the match Dave gave five stars to, they pop when the workers beat the count out, not because they believed they wouldn't make it back into the ring but because it's a spot they're supposed to pop for. They're a well conditioned audience, but they enjoy it very much.
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Breaking down the European WON HOF Candidates
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Pro Wrestling
I've kind of softened on Rocco recently. His work in the late 70s was extremely good. I'm even inclined to think he has the best case out of all three of them simply because of the way Dixon used him in All-Star.