ohtani's jacket

6 man tag teams should absolutely be included. There is no fathomable reason why they shouldn't. Six man tag wrestling is tag wrestling.

Ricki Starr and Gorgeous George in the same ring together was pretty mind blowing. I'm not sure how much of a typical Starr showcase the Hermann match was, but it was neat seeing Starr cut loose at the end. Russ Davis, though... A little bit would be okay, but the guy doesn't have an off button.

I don't see how Dandy and Satanico constitute a tag team, but they did have another big match in 1990 against Atlantis and Azteca.

Rollerball Mark Rocco Pros: * A television favourite particularly during the 1977-80 period * Arguably one of the most successful heel acts in British wrestling history * Decorated British and World Heavy-Middleweight Champion * Pioneered an explosive new work rate style in matches against Marty Jones and Dynamite Kid * Highly regarded by his peers * Wrestled frequently in North America and Japan * One of the key figures to jump to Brian Dixon's rival All-Star Promotions where he was heavily pushed and presumably a draw Cons: * Work has been negatively critiqued in recent years, particularly his work as Black Tiger in Japan * Strangely, never featured that prominently on Cup Final Days, Royal Albert Hall shows or the Wembley spectaculars, though in the case of the later his billed 1981 clash with Sammy Lee fell through, as did a heavily promoted Royal Albert Hall clash with Kung Fu in '82, which Rocco covered for brilliantly on the night * Not really an international light weight draw. Overshadowed by Dynamite Kid in that respect

Is that Blackwell/Lawler match the 10 minute one that was on the Memphis set or something else?

Brian Maxine vs. Mal Sanders (4/23/79) Turning Maxine face was an ill advised idea. Who wants to see Brian Maxine as a blue eye? Not me says the guy who slowly grew to love him as a heel. The trouble with giving Sanders a title when he was in his early 20s was that the veterans still didn't want to put him over cleanly so he either gets tainted wins or an unfortunate injury as was the case here. Mal Sanders vs. Young David (2/2/81) But then we have this bout where Sanders should have some kind of seniority over Davey Boy Smith but instead is wrestled with total parity. That bothered me a bit as it was another example of what little thought Joint put into their booking. They had this stacked array of talent, but didn't really do anything with it. To be fair, this was part of one of those Davis Cup style team competitions they loved to run so they were going for a draw, but it rubbed me up the wrong way. The match was a typical non-Jim Breaks Young David match. Nothing else he did in England came close to that trilogy. Mal Sanders vs. Keith Haward (3/17/81) These two matched up well, though ultimately Haward ran rough shot over Sanders and Mal kind of came out of the match-up looking second best, but this is the kind of pairing I would have written off without a second thought five years ago. I need to revisit their title match now as this was your classic title shot earner. Haward always blows me away that there was a guy like him in 1981. He's like a pro-type Ken Shamrock. Really something. Mal Sanders vs. Sid Cooper (9/29/81) This was the final of a knockout tournament to decide the Mike Marino Memorial Shield; Marino having died in August that year. Now I like Sid Cooper, and if people like Breaks he's another obvious guy to check out, but his rule bending here was ridiculous by any standard. I like the odd bout where the rule bending gets totally out of control, but it didn't fit the occasion here and detracted from what could have been a pretty good match. The final fall where Sanders was clutching his rib cage and went all out to win the shield was exciting, but a technical contest would have been a better homage to Marino in my eyes. Sanders winning did feel like a big moment, though. I could be wrong, but I think Sanders was with Marino when he died on the side of the road. They were definitely traveling together that night. So there was a bit of emotion there behind Mal's win. Sanders isn't doing too badly. I'm starting to warm to him so much I'm calling him Mal.

There are five Thomson matches on tape and another two where he's doing a masked Exorcist gimmick. Jetlag uploaded one of his bouts against Majid Ackra. The others are after his comeback from a career threatening back injury and aren't so good.

Atlantis vs. Ultimo Guerrero, mask vs. mask, 9/19/14 This was the most emotional mask match in lucha since the Atlantis/Villano III bout in 2000. The work was simple and effective. It was mostly built around nearfalls, and got better as the match went along, but the match itself didn't really matter. The result and the post-match afterwards were all about the emotion of a mask match. Jose Fernandez reckoned that Ultimo Guerrero kayfabed his family about the result and it's easy to believe. I've never been a fan of Ultimo Guerrero, but from the close-up of him telling the ring announcer his name and birthplace to the unmasking and the scenes that followed, the guy deserves a massive amount of props. In the days and weeks to come, I may go back and look at it as a match, but like the smart crowd with its large contingent of older fans there in anticipation of an Atlantis mask loss, let me just bask in the surprise. I never thought CMLL would do something to move me in 2014, not after the dog's breakfast that was the Rush/Casas hair match, but with one BS free main event they proved there's life in lucha libre yet. And that's enough to make a true believer out of anyone.

Clive was cool in the 70s, but that Ironfist kung fu gimmick killed it for me. He still had great matches with Grey in the 80s, but his matches against other top flight talent were disappointing. A good worker but not one I'd vote for.

She's worth nominating.

Her best match before 1990 is the Chigusa singles match. After 1997, her most notable match was the 2001 Satomura match.

Jackie Pallo Pros: * Mr. TV, one of the first guys to take full advantage of the opportunities TV exposure brought * Household name in Britain * One of the first wrestlers to adopt a razzmatazz television gimmick * Forged a show business career that included number acting appearances * Cup Final Day match with McManus purportedly drew a massive number of viewers Cons: * Breakaway independent promotion failed * Was said to be a poor businessman * Other wrestlers didn't have a high opinion of him as a worker * Not a hugely popular figure in the locker room * Only one full match of his survives on tape * Worked a comedy style some may not appreciate * 1985 autobiography exposed the business * Only had one championship run, the British Heavy-Middleweight title in 1969, which he won during a feud with Bert Royal * More than likely wasn't trusted by promoters due to his constant threats to break away and form his own promotion

The Sakuraba matches were a great eff you to the UWF. Rumour has it that Tamura very nearly went to Pancrase, which would have been a loss for late 90s puroresu.

What I meant by limited footage is that there's not much footage of him for voters to watch including none from Germany that I know of. German tournaments aren't something I am very familiar with and I imagine that is true for most voters. I'm not even sure how important the tournaments were in relation to each other as most people are only aware of Hanover. Hoffman being booked to win each tournament by Kaiser was only a possible con, if he was the biggest star in the promotion or indeed the country then it makes sense, but it's something Daddy gets held against him in relation to Brian and Max Crabtree. I can't speak for his AWA standing, but I don't think he was a big star in Japan. Certainly not on Billy Robinson or Frank Gotch's level. Kaiser is an interesting guy for a candidate. Is it fair to say he was the most important German promoter of the post-war period? Promoters haven't really gotten a look in for the European section yet.

Because people don't want to watch wrestlers when they're old and broken down? You have to be pretty invested in a wrestler (or curious) to want to see how good he was all after his prime. And greatness in older wrestlers is even more contentious than greatness in wrestlers full stop. People who like the wrestler tend to get far more out of their later worker than people who don't. Look at Blue Panther.

Thanks for that. I keep reading that Joyce wasn't mean enough and didn't want to hurt people, so was he really a ripper?

Jumbo had a whole period where he worked comedy 6-man tags. I don't know how many are on tape, but I'm damn sure people ignore them.

He was washed up pretty fast. He seemed to age quicker than any worker I can remember. There's some decent old man Fiera stuff where he's not really that old, he just looks it. Wouldn't consider him myself. Emilio Charles Jr is my cut off for luchadores I've decided, and Emilio > Fiera.

I don't mind if people use those standards so long as they're consistent with them. By which I mean you don't just apply to them to Flair but every nominee. Personally, I think it's a case by case matter -- it works in some wrestler's favour and other times it doesn't matter -- but I would find it kind of odd if someone watched a dozen Kandori matches from her prime and voted her, but held Flair to these standards. I also don't see how a universal standard can be applied when everyone ages differently and we're not always privy to what the wrestler can and cannot do physically. And maybe people are just flat out overrating older Andre and everyone else.

Kendo Nagasaki Pros: * One of the biggest stars in British wrestling history to the point where he's still featured on television and in print today * Enduring gimmick and a decent worker * Was a big draw in the 70s and 80s and continued to draw even after wrestling lost television * Like Haystacks, traveled more extensively than some of the other names on the ballot * Several legendary feuds such as Count Bartelli in the mid 60s and Big Daddy in the mid 70s * His unmasking on New Year's Eve 1977 was one of the most highly anticipated and most memorable moments of wrestling's run on ITV Cons: * Failed move to the indies in the mid 70s led to his first retirement and when he returned to Joint and television was never the same again * Failed face turn after unmasking * Involved in plenty of silliness in the waning days of wrestling on ITV (disco ladder match with Cliver Myers, hypnotizing Regal and Brookside) * Said to have become somewhat aimless after the death of his manager George E. Gillette * No dead set classic match on tape * At least a dozen or more better heavyweights wrestling in the country at any point in his career

The last Toyota match I watched I really enjoyed (Toyota/Yamada from '89.) It seems redundant to point out all her flaws. For me she's no worse a candidate than Liger or Kobashi or Takada or Hase.

Completely hinges on how well her ARSION work holds up. I'll hand the floor over to Loss.

Jackie wasn't a bad worker, which she got to show more of after Maki retired, and I like the way she fits into the lineage of AJW ace's, but you'd have to say that both Mariko Akagi and Jaguar Yokota outshone her as pure workers from the same era and showed what Joshi was capable of in an era when it wasn't supposed to be very good. You could add Yumi Ikeshita to that list too.

Now that I've kind of come around on Rocco, Saint stands as the most overrated British worker of all-time. How he ever got a rep of being better than his contemporaries like Grey, Breaks and Rocco is beyond me. He does have some outstanding matches, though, including just about the best WoS tag I've seen, but it's mixed with a lot of disappointing stuff. I don't just say this because he's a gateway guy and I want to be all Pitchfork about it. Watch Saint vs. lesser names and compare it with Grey against everybody.

Previously one of my all-time favourites and perhaps my pick for the best actor in all of wrestling. Haven't thought about her for a long time. Even when I was a fan, you had to gloss over the fact that she botched a lot of moves. That's easy to do if you buy into her character, but I'm not all that keen on revisiting her unless it's new stuff I haven't seen. The JWP promotion really was wonderful though. It was such a tiny indy but the girls were like a close knit family. I have fond memories of the promotion and watching the TV.