ohtani's jacket

My wife is a fan. She even has a Tanahashi key holder.

Lizmark vs. La Parka from the first Triplemania is something you should check out. I actually really like the Perro Aguayo/Mascara Ano 2000 hair vs. mask match from that show as well for all the spectacle you'd expect from that sort of semi-main.

Okay, Lizmark moves up to the great workers category. I'd forgotten how great he was in AAA and I'm super high on the La Parka match I just watched for my blog. He's a guy who really needs to be appreciated more.

Villano III vs. Rambo, mask vs. mask, UWA 10/25/87 This was the match Cronicas y Leyenda teased us with a few years ago and which I posted so pictures of from DJ Spectro's blog about a year ago. Finally, the bout is in circulation and while it's hurt a bit by clipping what's shown is good enough to take pride of place alongside the other great Luchas de Apuestas matches that exist from the 80s. The exact chain of events aren't shown in the first two falls, but basically Villano III takes such a beating that his mask is in tatters and his forehead heavily cut. When it comes to lucha bleeders, I know Phil Schneider loves to tell the story about how Pirata Morgan would blade his empty eye socket, and then there's Sangre Chicana and other noted bladers, but I don't think Villano III gets quite his due as a lucha brawler. He's got a forehead to match Perro Aguayo, but people tend to think of him as a technical wrestler, I think. He was tremendous here, especially working his bloodied comeback. Rambo was a solid hand and these two had a series of great matches over the years, but if not for Villano this might have been a bit too heavy on Rambo attempting his finishers. The third fall was what you want from this sort of match -- big sweeping arc, nearfalls, plenty of dives and nutty highspots, and some great moments of desperation. The highlight being Villano's armdrag from the apron, which Rambo took as a really heavy looking bump onto the concrete. The finish was one you don't see a lot of in lucha and that's a chair shot. I wasn't sure how I felt about it at first until Rambo unmasked and began complaining. I loved how it seemed Rambo had a legitimate gripe despite the fact he brought the chair into the ring and that anything generally goes in these type of matches. Rambo got repeatedly screwed in this feud over the years and it amused me to see how it all began. Minus the clipping, this might've had a good shot at my top 10 for the 80s. As it is, it's another piece of 80s treasure. Fuerza Guerrera vs. Misterioso, NWA World Welterweight Championship match, CMLL 12/8/91 This was exactly what you'd expect from Fuerza Guerrera carrying Misterioso. Not something I really want to see. Some people might appreciate Fuerza putting on a one man show, but to me it reminded me a lot of modern matches where you have a guy like Casas doing all of the work and the recipient not really contributing. Fishman & Blue Panther vs. Atlantis & Lizmark, CMLL 1/9/98 This was one of those short, one fall tournament bouts that usually don't amount to much, but in this case they decided to take it to that wonderful place we call the mat. It was probably the hardest Fishman had worked on the mat the entire decade and unfortunately he wasn't that crash hot, but what followed was some of the most beautiful lucha libre I've seen in all my years of watching. To my knowledge, there has never been a known Lizmark vs. Blue Panther singles match. This is as close to heaven as we're going to get. To put their work in context, it smoked the Virus/Panther lightening match that got a lot of acclaim this year and was probably better than the best Panther/Atlantis stuff in terms of pure exchanges. I hope I haven't built that up too much, but I watched it again tonight and was blown away a second time. The stand-up stuff wasn't as good and Fishman struggled to keep pace, but there were some fun exchanges between Atlantis and Panther and Panther and Lizmark before the necessary fall to move the tournament ahead. Considering how close this was to the 12/97 Panther/Atlantis match, Panther may have been the best guy in Mexico at this point. Lizmark vs. La Parka, AAA Triplemania I 4/30/93 This was ridiculously great. I had no idea La Parka could be in a match this good in 1993. This was one of the least co-operative looking lucha matches I've seen. The matwork had a shoot like edge to and later on the dives and all of the offence seemed to have extra impact, and the transitions and set-up spots seemed to be peppered with headbutts and other strikes. The match went to a commissioner enforced "extra period" and even that as gritty. Everything just seemed to work so perfectly. It was like watching 2004 La Parka not the early version. A lot of the credit has to go to Lizmark, I suppose. Lizmark has been off my radar for a while now and I'd forgotten how good he was in AAA. If there's one thing AAA did better than CMLL, and there's probably a few since I'm feeling generous about AAA right now, it's book Lizmark in long title matches. To be honest, when I think of this match and the Estrada match I actually think he was a better singles match worker than Atlantis and should probably rank higher in the lucha hierarchy. This deserves a better write-up than I have the time or energy for right now, but I was super high on it and I hope people check it out. There's no doubt in my mind it's an AAA classic and it would probably push top 20 for the decade if I ever get round to revising my list.

I thought that Bret/Martel match from '89 was all kinds of average. Neither the Bret control segment or the Martel control segment were interesting and just when the finishing stretch was getting interesting it was called a draw. I can see fans of both guys liking this more than me, but I wanted to like it way more than than I did.

Cutie was a hard worker. She was better athletically earlier in her career. Later on she had a lot of back trouble.

I still like that Bret Hart Dandy line. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I wish you guys had spoken a bit more about Satanico, especially since Childs wasn't so convinced about his all-time great status in the past. I'd also be interested in a 1990 v. 1997 comparison for CMLL in the future as those are the two consensus best years for CMLL in the 90s with most people leaning towards 1997 because of the higher proportion of great matches. With UWF, having seen every match on every show, I think it was a slightly better year than what was perhaps represented on the set. You could make a top 20 for that year as good as anything from New Japan but you can't say the same for the splinter promotions that follow.

Good to see you round, grover. I'm not a fan of Eddie's Mexico work. To me he was like a visiting American than a real luchador. He had some good moments but most of his stuff is just not lucha if you catch my drift. Volador and Misterioso aren't my cup of tea. They belong with the Shockers and the Mr. Niebla's of the world. I'd probably rate Rey Bucanero over all of those guys. Marabunta I've see very little of. Heavy Metal I thought was bad in AAA and then better later on. Talisman I'm drawing a blank on. I need to wait for the set on him. Baby Face is okay but he's no Signo.

I'm not a big fan of Los Cowboys. Bestia was a fantastic worker around '92-93 and dependable later on. I totally forgot about him. He's a strong hand. Canek was mechanically good but lacked the kind of genius I like from workers. The minis were good workers but I really haven't seen enough from then. I've seen more Mascarita Dorada than Sagrada. I'd be tempted to list then on the strength of what I have seen, but there's a lot of one offs who could get in on that basis.

Something more than archetypes? Archetypes are fine for following the basic narrative of the match, but look at how much El Boricua's translations added to the Puerto Rico fued. Perhaps I'm over imagining what people mean by context, but to me when people mention the Misawa/Kawada dynamic my gut reaction is to question what they mean. Why was there animosity between Misawa and Kawada? Why did they break up? These questions are difficult to answer and yet they'd be crucial to any understanding of American wrestling. What generally happens is that people focus on Kawada's hard luck story, but was that really the theme of their feud? Again, it's difficult to say. So to me I think the context people are looking for isn't really out there. I'd even go so far to say that we've created out own context for many of these matches over the years through our reviews and so forth.

I'm trying to think of a situation where an interviewer or a podcast host would correct a guest's memory of certain events in even a joking way. Seems like bad etiquette.

Long time puroresu fans think Akira Fukuzawa is a great commentator when he's clearly not. They have no clue about Ichiro Furutachi and Kotetsu Yamamoto or Takao Kuramochi or Kenji Wakabayashi. There's a huge amount that's lost on fans. What they're left with is the basics. They know that Hokuto hates Kandori, but they don't know why exactly because they can't understand what she's saying about her. That doesn't mean that they can't enjoy the matches, but they fill in the gaps with their own interpretation of the work or focus on the booking, i.e. wrestler A fought wrestler B in this tag match, then they had this singles match and so forth.

Felino was well established at this point as an upper midcarder. The win here was more about giving him momentum leading into his summer feud against Santo, I think.

I don't know about CMLL TV these days, but in the past lucha booking has been hugely confusing. Understanding the commentary from my experience would be a huge boon. Of course, I still find ways to enjoy it, but I still find things like the Santo heel turn difficult to follow.

My apologies if I've misunderstood you, but it's easy to pick up the context from American wrestling as the announcing and the promos are all in English. A kid can start watching and following it, as many of us did as children. And children by and large don't need context as they learn as they go, though I do remember asking an uncle of mine all sorts of stupid questions when I first discovered wrestling. Japanese wrestling is a stab in the dark when it comes to those things. You can read up on it, read what other people have written or recommended, but a lot is lost even on hardcore viewers. Imagine how much less you'd understand about American workers if you couldn't understand what they were saying or what they were feuding about. You could still get a sense of atmosphere and emotion, but a lot of the nuances would be lost and that's generally what happens with Japanese wrestling. I'm sure there are Japanese storytelling traits you can find in Japanese wrestling, but overcoming adversity or great odds and still coming through fighting and winning is actually probably the most overwhelming theme in all of Japanese literature, though it often has a tragic, if not pessimistic outcome. Humility isn't a hugely defining characteristic of Japanese workers. I wouldn't call Choshu, Hokuto, Akira Maeda or Aja Kong humble for example. Nor Takada, Ozaki, Chigusa or Jumbo Tsuruta.

Re: the Villano/Rambo match The clipping hurt it a bit, but other than that I think it would take pride of place amongst the best brawls of the 80s. Villano bled a shitload and the third caida had some great moments of desperation. I liked the finish a lot more after Rambo unmasked and began complaining. So began a lifetime of being screwed over by Villano III.

Psicosis was a hugely charismatic heel who had some fantastic comedy spots like when he'd deliberately slip on the apron and berate the crowd for laughing at him, and he was as crazy a bumper as Pirata Morgan, Emilio or Cassandro, but mechanically I think he's the worst of anyone on the list. He wasn't a great mat worker and a lot of the time his offence was sloppy. A decent hand to me is someone who is better than average. Everyone I listed is a worker I'd go out of my way to see if I found them in a match on YouTube. I decided not to include any negative categories. EDIT: I changed "decent" to "solid" to more accurately describe the workers. Los Traumas are in there under the strong hands category. Super Astro was always in there. I like Super Astro but Super Astro has his schtick and he does it in every single match. That's his thing. It's fun schtick and it's crowd pleasing and it works just about every time, but I'd take Super Porky over him every time for variety of schtick. Estrada ain't making my list, but I've seen good Jerry Estrada matches so I won't shit on him right now. As for Atlantis, I think he's one of the greatest technico trios workers of all-time, a role I think is much more difficult than being a great rudo worker. I think he's one of the great classical masked luchadores and before he toned down his in-ring style I think he was a pretty sensational worker. My biggest criticism of him is that he wasn't the greatest singles worker. He only really has the two Panther matches from '91 and '97 and the Villano match from 2000 as his great singles matches with possibly the El Faraon match being on that level and maybe the late 80s Emilio Charles match, despite having ample opportunity to work both title and apuestas matches. His singles matches are usually worth watching, but a lot of them are in that three star range. There's probably some good ones that are lost to us, but generally speaking he impresses me most in trios. There was a period where you could have two or three great rudo workers vs. Atlantis and just about anybody and it would be a good trios match. He's also pretty good these days, though he generally wrestles a bunch of guys I have no interest in watching. Yeah, I was trying to be objective with the top guys. As you know, I have issues with Santo, Panther and Casas and am probably more enthusiastic about the second tier guys in general, but I can't really deny the legacy those three have built up. I haven't really seen enough Javier Llanes to know where to rate him. I like watching the Capos and Rayo, particularly Universo 2000, but I can't really rate them as top tier workers in good faith. Maybe if I watch a bit more of their 80s stuff, though that's never impressed me hugely. A bit more of Universo's later run might persuade me to put him in one of the categories. I'd rather hear your thoughts since we reviewed a lot of that together. I'm sure there's a lot of people I've forgotten. Skyade is one of them, though I don't think I've seen that much of his actual work in Mexico. Rambo I would probably rate as a decent/solid hand. I didn't know Alfredo finally got a copy of that mask match. I'm off to watch it.

OK, so I've worked my way back into watching a fair bit of lucha again and since there's some excitement over the DVDVR 80s set, I thought I'd give this ago. I'm bound to forget some names, but here's what I've got: All-Time Greats Satanico, El Dandy, Negro Casas, El Hijo del Santo, Blue Panther Great Workers Emilio Charles, Jr., Atlantis, Pirata Morgan, Solar, Lizmark, Black Terry, Negro Navarro, Virus, Sangre Chicana, Villano III Excellent Workers Cassandro, Espanto Jr., MS-1, La Fiera, Fuerza Guerrera, El Signo, Dos Caras Strong Hands Angel Azteca, Perro Aguayo, Villano IV, Villano V, Dr. Cerebro, Apolo Dantes, Javier Cruz, Black Man, Herodes, Ringo Mendoza, Mocho Cota, El Faraon, El Texano, Silver King, Gran Cochise, Americo Rocca, Dr. Wagner, Jr., LA Park, Los Brazos, Valiente, Demus 3:16, Pierrothito, Los Traumas, Felino, Ciclon Ramirez, Cicloncito Ramirez, Bestia Salvaje Solid Hands Sergio El Hermoso, Ultraman, Super Astro, Freelance, Chico Che, Espectro Jr, Hombre Bala, Maskare, Tony Salazar, Psicosis, Pierroth This was really hard. I'll add more as I think of them.

I wrote about that Emilio Charles/Atlantis match in my latest blog entry: Atlantis vs. Emilio Charles Jr., NWA World Middleweight Championship match, CMLL 3/22/91 This was a good title match, but not a great one. It was notable for a performance from Emilio Charles, Jr. that was pretty close to prime Charles. It wasn't one of Atlantis' better performances, however, though this was offset somewhat by him doing a lot of long term selling which fit into the narrative of his title being at risk. The first fall had some typically good Atlantis/Charles matwork as these two had a good working chemistry. I liked the way that Charles was able to outfox Atlantis, keep him at arm's distance and finally work his way towards the standing submission he wanted. Intelligent heel workers is one of the things that really endears me to lucha and title matches are obviously where they get to showcase their ability most. Unfortunately, Atlantis' comebacks in the match weren't timed as well as you'd expect. That's an issue as said comebacks are important turning points in lucha libre title matches. Charles covered for the first comeback by producing some of his classic bumping and selling, but things stalled a bit in the third caida. There were some good dives, but Atlantis actually blew the spot he was supposed to make his comeback on. Charles was able to lay into him a bit and cover for the mistake and Atlantis sold the slip like it was a result of match fatigue, but it took me out of the match a bit. And unfortunately, the finish was not so much poor conceived as poorly timed. None of this should take away from a top performance from Emilio, but it's a match that could've been a lot better.

Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/Pierroth vs. Atlantis/Super Astro/Angel Azteca, CMLL 11/8/91 This was nowhere near as good as these teams are capable of, but there was still a lot of talent on show. I liked how we got some match-ups that you don't usually see like Fuerza vs. Angel Azteca. It's always bugged me how they didn't do more with Azteca during his cooling off period. They groomed him to be the next Atlantis, at least in my eyes, and then he fell by the wayside as Octagon got over. Of course they've gotten another two decades out of Atlantis, and there's nothing to suggest he wouldn't have jumped to AAA even with a bigger push, but in my revisionist little brain he ought to have been a bigger star instead of being lost in the shuffle. Anyway, to cut back to the match, the Fuerza/Azteca exchanges were a lot of fun and something you good folks should check out. There was also a great nod to the Atlantis/Panther rivalry where they had a brief stare off before locking up. The negatives were that it was a one fall bout so lacked the rhythm of an ordinary trios match, Pierroth was about 1/5th as good as he'd become in 1992 and they became overly obsessed with double leg takedowns during the finishing stretch. Blue Panther vs. Octagon, National Middleweight Championship match, AAA 4/30/94 Never heard of this one? Possibly because it's one of the worst title matches in lucha history. You look at this on paper and you think, "gee, I wonder what Blue Panther can do with Octagon in a title match" and then you get an endless repetitious stalling exchange where Octagon won't let Tirantes check his boots, a bunch of non-title match looking action that wouldn't wash in a mano a mano bout, and to top it all off a title change on a freakin' DQ. Octagon spent longer celebrating with whoever the old guy was seconding him and the woman who joined them in the ring at the end than he did wrestling. Really just a joke of a title match. Atlantis vs. Emilio Charles Jr., NWA World Middleweight Championship match, CMLL 3/22/91 This was a good title match, but not a great one. It was notable for a performance from Emilio Charles, Jr. that was pretty close to prime Charles. It wasn't one of Atlantis' better performances, however, though this was offset somewhat by him doing a lot of long term selling which fit into the narrative of his title being at risk. The first fall had some typically good Atlantis/Charles matwork as these two had a good working chemistry. I liked the way that Charles was able to outfox Atlantis, keep him at arm's distance and finally work his way towards the standing submission he wanted. Intelligent heel workers is one of the things that really endears me to lucha and title matches are obviously where they get to showcase their ability most. Unfortunately, Atlantis' comebacks in the match weren't timed as well as you'd expect. That's an issue as said comebacks are important turning points in lucha libre title matches. Charles covered for the first comeback by producing some of his classic bumping and selling, but things stalled a bit in the third caida. There were some good dives, but Atlantis actually blew the spot he was supposed to make his comeback on. Charles was able to lay into him a bit and cover for the mistake and Atlantis sold the slip like it was a result of match fatigue, but it took me out of the match a bit. And unfortunately, the finish was not so much poor conceived as poorly timed. None of this should take away from a top performance from Emilio, but it's a match that could've been a lot better. Atlantis/El Dandy/Octagon vs. Satanico/Emilio Charles Jr./Kung Fu, CMLL 10/12/90 One of those fun advance the angle matches. In this case, the main angle was Atlantis vs. Kung Fu with Dandy and Satanico being a secondary issue. Emilio slotted right in there as the guy with historic issues against both Dandy and Atlantis. Satanico/Mascara Ano 2000/Pirata Morgan vs. El Dandy/Sangre Chicana/El Faraon, CMLL 11/2/90 This was the same sort of story as the match above, but much more disappointing given the talent involved. The highlight of the match for me was Mascara Ano 2000 being thrown to the outside and then flinging himself into the ring post because he was dizzy. That made me laugh. Was expecting far more from the technicos. Negro Casas/MS-1/Jerry Estrada vs. Atlantis/Mascara Sagrada/Panterita del Ring, Monterrey October 1991 This was pretty piss poor. I wasn't kidding when I said Monterrey was a vacation for some of these guys. Jerry Estrada didn't do anything until a comedy bump after the match where he took out the television interviewer and it took forever for Atlantis to enter the match. Casas was a pest and had some decent exchanges with Panterita, but he also worked this silly submission spot where he had Panterita hunched in the corner and he was standing on the middle rope posing to the crowd and occasionally wrenching the arm as the other rudos meandered around doing lazy rudo brawling. This went on for a good three or four minutes and I probably should have tuned out at that point. Casas did have a rad UWA jacket, though. Satanico, MS 1 & Pirata Morgan vs. Lizmark, Mascara Sagrada & Atlantis, CMLL 1991 This was a classic Infernales match filled with all sorts of smooth double and triple teaming. We obviously don't have the full picture on lucha libre trios and which teams were the most influential in establishing the style, but it's hard to believe that Los Infernales didn't lay down some of the groundwork in teams of rudo teamwork. This was your run-of-the-mill TV match not your all-time classic that people yearn for, but it's always a pleasure to enjoy how solid these by the numbers television matches were. Lizmark spent a lot of this match with the top of his mask missing and his hair sticking out. He looked a bit like Super Muñeco. He had some beautiful exchanges, but what really stuck out for me on the technico side was how good Sagrada looked. I don't think I've ever seen him as on point as he was here. Not sure if that was because of the Infernales or if Sagrada just had his head together, but it surprised me. There was also a spectacular sequence in the match where Atlantis took on the Infernales three on one, first in the ring and then again on the outside. The Infernales bumped for his spinning back breaker better than anybody else and Pirata took his trademark back bodydrop bump over the top rope which never fails to wow me. This was some seriously exciting stuff and one of Atlantis' best ever trios moments.

The same reason the one that got away gets bigger every time the story is told? A lot of this is human nature as much as it is carny bullshit, it's just that wrestlers spend a lifetime cutting promos so it runs off the tongue a bit easier than retired sports stars who think everything was better in their day. It's as much a hang up for wrestling fans who get annoyed at factual incorrect information than it is some kind of psychological disorder.

I don't see how it has anything to do with ignorance. If it doesn't appeal to you then it doesn't appeal to you. I don't really buy this context stuff. Most of us started with no context and began from scratch. And since most fans don't understand much Japanese, you don't get the proper context anyway, just their interpretation of the booking and events. I think it's more important that you get a feel for the mood or tone of Japanese wrestling.