ohtani's jacket

Japanese wrestlers fought against each other before Choshu and Fujinami and even feuded with one another, but Choshu and Fujinami were prominent because it was part of a hot period for New Japan where they were drawing strong ratings for their Friday night television show and Choshu was quite unlike any star there had been before. There was a greater emphasis in the 70s on native wrestlers challenging the touring champ or Inoki wrestling martial artists from around the world, the latter of which drew big ratings for individual fights, and this started to die out as the territories did, but native vs. native existed even in the Rikidozan era. It wasn't as prestigious as say yokozuna vs. yokozuna in sumo and things like the NWA World Heavyweight championship carried more weight, but it wasn't a foreign concept. Choshu came through in an era where rebellious figures were popular in pop culture. Actors such as Bunta Sugawara, Ken Takakura and Yujiro Ishihara. The fans ate it up, though he was likely polarizing to an extent. I'd have to do a little research, but I can imagine older fans perhaps not liking him and I suppose fans of Fujinami. EDIT: Incidentally, Choshu and New Japan used to go head-to-head with Yujiro Ishihara on Friday nights running against the cop drama Taiyō ni Hoero!

It really depends on the style of wrestling. In Joshi puroresu, for example, they often get on the house mic at the end of the match and cut promos on one another. These promos are most notable for the language they use. Language you'd never hear people use in daily life and especially not ladies. The promos are often quite emotional and feature a lot of screaming and crying. Pre and post-match backstage interviews are a feature of most Japanese wrestling as well and vary in quality and content depending on the speaking ability of the workers. In Joshi, you'll get the occasional angle like Dump attacking Chigusa during one of her concerts and the press conference they did before their hair match where Dump cut a chicken's throat in front of Chigusa. Other angles I can remember were Kandori being at ringside to watch Hokuto fight when their feud was first starting up, Amano pledging to Ozaki and a bunch of beat downs over the years. Something like shoot style, on the other hand, was presented almost totally like sports, except for when Takada would go around trash talking outside fighters, challenging them to matches and trying to pull stunts at rival gyms. There was a sizable media for pro-wrestling in its heyday as well. I couldn't tell you the difference between the Japanese media and say the Apter mags, but wrestlers certainly spoke to and were interviewed by the media and from the little I know that built to the matches. You tend to get a lot of "I tried my best but my opponent was just too strong" kind of post-match comments from wrestlers in Japan, especially those without strong personalities, but some wrestlers cut angry promos post-match. Akira Hokuto used to cut some pretty amazing promos. EDIT: I forgot to mention that the commentary generally has colour and play-by-play too.

I thought the Lucero vs. Hechicero title match turned on the missed tope and became a great match after that point. The early matwork was no better or worse than the week before, but I can see someone liking Lucero's performance more in the first match. It was the same basic opening to both matches, though. Lucero maybe wrestled a little cleaner because it was a title fight but I seem to remember him getting frustrated in the title match as well. He just didn't throw the punch. The punch was a great spot in the mano a mano but you can't really do that in title match conventions.

Don't worry, they wrestle each other all the time and have been teasing a mask match for the past decade. Another of their matches will pop up eventually. Any in particular you'd recommend? Definitely want to check them out if they're even close to this one. It's not really the kind of wrestling I like, but their 11/15/12 match from Naucalpan is online as is their 12/16/11 title match from Puebla. You can also find their Arena Mexico match from 2006 online. And as Phil said, the Mesias matches were highly regarded.

Don't worry, they wrestle each other all the time and have been teasing a mask match for the past decade. Another of their matches will pop up eventually.

The finish was a DQ. I don't think it's going anywhere since Wagner has left TXT and no-one wants to put the money up for the Wagner/Park mask match after that TXT show drew poorly.

Maybe, but there are a lot of shoot style sprints that I don't know if I'd classify as go-go. Or maybe they're high quality go-go matches.

To me a sprint refers to the length and pace of a match. Some workers can work the Go-Go style for 25-30 minutes, even an hour in the case of some Joshi matches. I guess I'd define the Go-Go style as a type of up tempo, non-stop offence where both workers keep hitting spot after spot. When it works, it's usually because the workers hit their spots in rhythm and the transitions were solid. It also helps to have at least short term selling in the longer matches. I think it also depends somewhat on the viewer. There have been Kurt Angle matches I've enjoyed, Manami Toyota matches I've enjoyed and recently AAA matches I've enjoyed largely because I've been in synch with them. It's difficult to explain but sometimes I think you need to be in rhythm with the match to enjoy certain stuff. When I watched a lot of Joshi, for example, I would sometimes really dig when Toyota went on an offensive tear as the match was swinging for me. If I watched her now I think I'd struggle to get into that sort of groove. The Steiners are another example of the style I think.

Mark Rocco is a name I'll add, which is one of the more frustrating ones because when he worked mat based catchweight contests he was as good as any other worker in England.

Other regular posters could have been Joshua, Spanky, me, Matt Talbot (SweetJesusFreak) or possibly one or two others. That is my entire contribution to this thread and I have no memory of the debate in question Joshua was the guy, I think.

The only person who thought you were right in that Liger/Sano argument was that hanger on of yours, captain swing or whatever his name was and probably Jewett before the two of you had your break-up. Todd agreed with me, the other regular there whose name I can't remember now agreed with me, because it's obvious that Liger won the blowoff match and won the feud. I do find it amusing that a guy who goes into minute detail about a Bruce Springsteen concert, the steak he had for dinner, the time he ate dinner with Meltzer in Japan or his masturbatory habits as a teenager doesn't think there's any value in a little bit of extra detail, perhaps a bit of context from the commentary or a clearer idea of how the narrative was framed for the audience, but whatever... my point was that you didn't need any of this extra context outside of a knowledge of the booking history, but as you usual you argued what you want to argue, threw some pot shots and acted smug. And keep calling me Daniel to be condescending. Anyway, I regret being involved in this thread.

La Parka vs. Jerry Estrada, Mexican National Light Heavyweight title, AAA 3/28/95 Man, how good was Parka at this point? He brought the same sort of attitude to this as the Lizmark match, shoving Estrada early and gyrating in his face. And if there was ever a guy who deserved a Park gyration it was Jerry Estrada. This wasn't as epic as the Lizmark match as it had a ton of bullshit with Tirantes, but it was a similar brew of uncooperative matwork and killer high spots. On the Jerry Estrada scale of out of his mind to utterly disinterested, he ranked about an inoffensive, but there was some visible spot calling in the third caida that hurt this a bit. It was also shorter than average for a title match, but that was largely because of the Tirantes angle. Lizmark vs. Enfermero Jr., NWA World Middleweight Championship, EMLL 8/83 Early 80s lucha has a different vibe to it. It's kind of like when you watch older sports matches and the crowds are completely different from the ones you get today. You watch a match from the Boston Garden for example and it seems like a special time. This was the same. Kids would flood the ring before and after the match, hoping to get an autograph from one of the workers and there was the kind of buzz about the crowd that only happens when there's a solidarity of everybody being there to see the wrestling. And the work itself was different. From the workers' grappling stance to the exaggerated stylings of some of their moves and holds, it seems like early lucha may have been even more expressive than the work we're used to. Enfermero Jr was Jaque Mate before he repackaged himself as such (and had that really fun Intocables run.) His gimmick was an evil nurse. Don't ask me what Mexico has against doctors and nurses, other than some serious mistrust in the healthcare system. The match was really good. It didn't maximise the dramatic potential of a title match, but the work was really strong, and any and all Lizmark is worth watching. Enfermero looked like a capable worker, albeit not a serious challenger to the title. Satanico/La Parka/Fuerza Guerrera vs. Lizmark/Mascara Sagrada/Volador, AAA 2/15/94 This had a really solid mat exchange between Lizmark and a rather portly looking Satanico, but the AAA style exchanges dragged on and on and eventually this became a bore. Mascara Sagrada looked surprisingly smooth, however. First I softened on AAA, now Mascara Sagrada. What's wrong with me? Lizmark/Rey Misterio/Rey Misterio Jr. vs. La Parka/Psicosis/Espectro Jr., AAA 5/5/94 This was the kind of all-action match that AAA was good at even if it fell short of a classic. Lizmark again got the mat section, this time with Espectro Jr. They put on some really good exchanges, which were further proof of how good Lizmark was in AAA. The others couldn't really match that pairing, but this had better rhythm in the AAA rope exchanges. Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/Psicosis vs. El Mariachi/El Charro/El Mexicano, AAA 10/15/94 AAA tended to let only one pairing work the mat in the primera caida. In this case, it was Blue Panther and El Mexicano instead of Panther and Solar. Panther had a couple of short exchanges with Solar later in the mat, but Solar (or El Mariachi as he was packaged here) squared off against Fuerza to start in what was a pretty disappointing match-up. The rudos weren't really on their game here and the technicos, for all their costumes, weren't that charismatic, but it was still okay. Eddie Guerrero/Art Barr/Lizmark vs. Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/La Parka, AAA 7/11/1993 For a while, Art Barr's life must have been pretty good. Snort some coke, come to the ring to Van Halen, hobnob with Roddy Piper and get plenty of love from the publico. I've never been much of a fan of Love Machine, but I thought he was pretty much perfect here. This was a really hot match from AAA's big '93 run. It's not a great match because of the booking but Parka rocks and just about everyone else is good. Watching this, I began to wonder if Parka was the best worker in Mexico in 1993. I think he certainly has a case. I always thought of Parka as being somewhat green at this time, but watching this stuff is blowing my mind. I can't think of anyone significantly better than him in 1993.

You're always trying to undercut people's arguments with silly examples. You've been doing it ever since you dug that hole for yourself by belligerently arguing that Sano won the Liger feud. You can't really answer the questions I posed because the answers weren't in the WON and you didn't receive a fax about them. It's okay if you don't know the answers, they're not really important to people's enjoyment of the matches, though they would provide a bit more context as El Boricua's explanations of the back stories in Puerto Rico wrestling have. Mind you, the ghost of Baba himself could post here and you'd probably tell him it wasn't in the WON.

Nah, I haven't seen that one. I've softened on AAA lately and Mascara Sagrada for that matter, so I'll try and check it out. I'm on a real Lizmark kick at the moment and brawling is one thing I haven't seen him do much of.

1980 and 1981 were also years where Joint Promotions was still really strong. I expect Saint vs. Grey to be a contender for the top 10.

I'm pretty high on Parka's early AAA stuff at the moment so he may move up soon. With Garza, I feel like I've only really seen two parts of his career, the early trios stuff and then the later charismatic, heat magnet stuff. I have more of an impression of a guy like Apolo Dantes than Garza, so yeah match recommendations would be good. Virus has been one of the best workers of the past decade or so, which is why I had him so high. I actually think he's the best guy in CMLL but doesn't get the push that others do. I know there's a reason why I like Ringo, I'm just drawing a blank on it.

My wife is a fan. She even has a Tanahashi key holder.

Lizmark vs. La Parka from the first Triplemania is something you should check out. I actually really like the Perro Aguayo/Mascara Ano 2000 hair vs. mask match from that show as well for all the spectacle you'd expect from that sort of semi-main.

Okay, Lizmark moves up to the great workers category. I'd forgotten how great he was in AAA and I'm super high on the La Parka match I just watched for my blog. He's a guy who really needs to be appreciated more.

Villano III vs. Rambo, mask vs. mask, UWA 10/25/87 This was the match Cronicas y Leyenda teased us with a few years ago and which I posted so pictures of from DJ Spectro's blog about a year ago. Finally, the bout is in circulation and while it's hurt a bit by clipping what's shown is good enough to take pride of place alongside the other great Luchas de Apuestas matches that exist from the 80s. The exact chain of events aren't shown in the first two falls, but basically Villano III takes such a beating that his mask is in tatters and his forehead heavily cut. When it comes to lucha bleeders, I know Phil Schneider loves to tell the story about how Pirata Morgan would blade his empty eye socket, and then there's Sangre Chicana and other noted bladers, but I don't think Villano III gets quite his due as a lucha brawler. He's got a forehead to match Perro Aguayo, but people tend to think of him as a technical wrestler, I think. He was tremendous here, especially working his bloodied comeback. Rambo was a solid hand and these two had a series of great matches over the years, but if not for Villano this might have been a bit too heavy on Rambo attempting his finishers. The third fall was what you want from this sort of match -- big sweeping arc, nearfalls, plenty of dives and nutty highspots, and some great moments of desperation. The highlight being Villano's armdrag from the apron, which Rambo took as a really heavy looking bump onto the concrete. The finish was one you don't see a lot of in lucha and that's a chair shot. I wasn't sure how I felt about it at first until Rambo unmasked and began complaining. I loved how it seemed Rambo had a legitimate gripe despite the fact he brought the chair into the ring and that anything generally goes in these type of matches. Rambo got repeatedly screwed in this feud over the years and it amused me to see how it all began. Minus the clipping, this might've had a good shot at my top 10 for the 80s. As it is, it's another piece of 80s treasure. Fuerza Guerrera vs. Misterioso, NWA World Welterweight Championship match, CMLL 12/8/91 This was exactly what you'd expect from Fuerza Guerrera carrying Misterioso. Not something I really want to see. Some people might appreciate Fuerza putting on a one man show, but to me it reminded me a lot of modern matches where you have a guy like Casas doing all of the work and the recipient not really contributing. Fishman & Blue Panther vs. Atlantis & Lizmark, CMLL 1/9/98 This was one of those short, one fall tournament bouts that usually don't amount to much, but in this case they decided to take it to that wonderful place we call the mat. It was probably the hardest Fishman had worked on the mat the entire decade and unfortunately he wasn't that crash hot, but what followed was some of the most beautiful lucha libre I've seen in all my years of watching. To my knowledge, there has never been a known Lizmark vs. Blue Panther singles match. This is as close to heaven as we're going to get. To put their work in context, it smoked the Virus/Panther lightening match that got a lot of acclaim this year and was probably better than the best Panther/Atlantis stuff in terms of pure exchanges. I hope I haven't built that up too much, but I watched it again tonight and was blown away a second time. The stand-up stuff wasn't as good and Fishman struggled to keep pace, but there were some fun exchanges between Atlantis and Panther and Panther and Lizmark before the necessary fall to move the tournament ahead. Considering how close this was to the 12/97 Panther/Atlantis match, Panther may have been the best guy in Mexico at this point. Lizmark vs. La Parka, AAA Triplemania I 4/30/93 This was ridiculously great. I had no idea La Parka could be in a match this good in 1993. This was one of the least co-operative looking lucha matches I've seen. The matwork had a shoot like edge to and later on the dives and all of the offence seemed to have extra impact, and the transitions and set-up spots seemed to be peppered with headbutts and other strikes. The match went to a commissioner enforced "extra period" and even that as gritty. Everything just seemed to work so perfectly. It was like watching 2004 La Parka not the early version. A lot of the credit has to go to Lizmark, I suppose. Lizmark has been off my radar for a while now and I'd forgotten how good he was in AAA. If there's one thing AAA did better than CMLL, and there's probably a few since I'm feeling generous about AAA right now, it's book Lizmark in long title matches. To be honest, when I think of this match and the Estrada match I actually think he was a better singles match worker than Atlantis and should probably rank higher in the lucha hierarchy. This deserves a better write-up than I have the time or energy for right now, but I was super high on it and I hope people check it out. There's no doubt in my mind it's an AAA classic and it would probably push top 20 for the decade if I ever get round to revising my list.

I thought that Bret/Martel match from '89 was all kinds of average. Neither the Bret control segment or the Martel control segment were interesting and just when the finishing stretch was getting interesting it was called a draw. I can see fans of both guys liking this more than me, but I wanted to like it way more than than I did.

Cutie was a hard worker. She was better athletically earlier in her career. Later on she had a lot of back trouble.

I still like that Bret Hart Dandy line. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I wish you guys had spoken a bit more about Satanico, especially since Childs wasn't so convinced about his all-time great status in the past. I'd also be interested in a 1990 v. 1997 comparison for CMLL in the future as those are the two consensus best years for CMLL in the 90s with most people leaning towards 1997 because of the higher proportion of great matches. With UWF, having seen every match on every show, I think it was a slightly better year than what was perhaps represented on the set. You could make a top 20 for that year as good as anything from New Japan but you can't say the same for the splinter promotions that follow.

Good to see you round, grover. I'm not a fan of Eddie's Mexico work. To me he was like a visiting American than a real luchador. He had some good moments but most of his stuff is just not lucha if you catch my drift. Volador and Misterioso aren't my cup of tea. They belong with the Shockers and the Mr. Niebla's of the world. I'd probably rate Rey Bucanero over all of those guys. Marabunta I've see very little of. Heavy Metal I thought was bad in AAA and then better later on. Talisman I'm drawing a blank on. I need to wait for the set on him. Baby Face is okay but he's no Signo.