ohtani's jacket

Not really. I don't know if impressionism is the right analogy, but I think the basic appeal of lucha is seeing a hold done in a way you don't wouldn't expect. Lucha has definite match structures however and this particular match worked in both a narrative sense and as a title match. We are way off though, since Portland 2/3 fall matches to me have the worst rhythm of any two out of three fall matches I've ever seen and I don't think Buddy Rose holds a candle to Satanico on any level.

For some reason I found it amusing that you think you can watch the August title change.

This is a bit of a mess if people are just going to throw names out there without providing their tiers, so I'll give it a go even though I only really care about two styles of wrestling at present. The top tier would include guys like Satanico, Breaks, Fujiwara and Volk Han. The whole thing is based on wrestling ability as well as acting and performing ability, which are the only things which matter to me. Tier 2 Steve Grey, Marty Jones, El Dandy, Negro Casas, Chigusa Nagayo, Jaguar Yokota, Toshiaki Kawada, Kiyoshi Tamura Tier 3 Alan Sarjeant, Jon Cortez, El Hijo del Santo, Blue Panther, Shinya Hashimoto, Arn Anderson Tier 4 Terry Rudge, Tibor Szacaks, Mike Marino, Negro Navarro, Black Terry, Yuki Ishikawa, Daisuke Ikeda That's all I can think of right now, but that would be my starting point.

King Ben vs. El Diablo (10/8/87) El Diablo was Tony Francis, a Bobby the Brain type manager who led heels against Big Daddy in the waning days of television wrestler. I don't really know as I don't watch Big Daddy matches. For some reason, he was moonlighting as a masked wrestler doing squash matches. Match was shit. Dave Duran vs. King Ben (date unknown) This was a handheld from the halls. Judging by the crowd (or lack thereof) it may have been after TV. The only really interesting thing about it was how much more it resembled an American house show match than a British wrestling match. I wonder if that was common in the halls. Bert Royal/Vic Faulkner vs. King Ben/Lee Sharron (3/17/81) This had a slightly interesting dynamic in that face Ben was partnered with heel Sharron. The Royal Brothers were kind of like the British version of the Funks and had all sorts of popular tag team spots. Of course, they didn't add much psychology to the bouts but they at least had some energy to them. Working with Faulkner was by far the most athletic Ben has looked so far. King Ben vs. Lucky Gordon (2/3/88) This was from the semi-finals of The Golden Grappler tournament. Boy am I glad so much of this vitally important tournament survives. This was terrible. Gordon is one of the worst wrestlers I've seen among the hundreds of British matches I've watched so far. Man, unless there is some killer early King Ben, I deeply regret that foray. Johnny Saint vs. Tony Costas (9/9/81) This as a good match. It's rare that I praise a Saint match so that says a lot. They didn't do anything outstandingly great so it's not a match I would put on my list of recommendations, but it had a good rhythm to it that I quickly settled into. John Carlo vs. Bob Kirkwood (4/18/74) Around 1975, wrestling's ratings began to drop somewhat as audiences grew tired of McManus, Pallo, Logan and Kellett. Around this time, Joint Promotions began trying to push some of its younger talent. One guy they thought was the future was this young, lanky heavyweight John Carlo, who disappeared off the face of the earth after a couple of television appearances. One look at him and I thought this was going to be a long match, but Kirkwood surprised me here by crafting an exciting bout for the young man to wrestle. Stellar job and went up in my estimation. Go Bob! Jim Moser vs. Dave Duran (4/20/88) Man, Moser was older than dirt here. Duran seemed to have a bit of promise to him even if he did arrive on the scene too late. This was okay, but awfully slow. Walton kept pointing out how banged up Moser was since it was pretty blatant. Little Prince vs. Steve Casey (8/3/83) I like Little Prince. He wasn't a great worker, but he was a lot of fun and did some nice moves. And his matches are never less than entertaining. It's a shame none of his 70s work is available.

I watched the full version of this and it didn't do a hell of lot for me. Technically, it was very good, but it suffered from the same problem as a lot of the repeat match-ups in Japan in that there wasn't a lot left to be said. Of course, it was better than the rest of those match-ups and the finishing stretch was typically excellent, but Kawada kicks Misawa, Misawa elbows Kawada, Kawada can't beat Misawa, Misawa doesn't lose to Kawada, it was pretty redundant thematically.

Chico Che/Freelance/Hijo del Pantera vs. Apolo Estrada Jr./Avisman/Eita, IWRG 2/18/13 I really wanted to like this as it had Freelance, Avisman and Chico Che in it, but there wasn't a single exchange I thought was special. Freelance, in particular, seemed really off and nothing like the worker who used to dice with death every time his feet left the ground. It kind of meandered along in a very old-school way, which may appeal to some people, but there was none of the overlapping of falls or clever touches that make trios matches special, and even Che failed to charm me. Blue Panther/Sagrado vs. Rey Hechicero/Califan, ACM 4/14/13 I sometimes wonder if the reason I don't enjoy old man Panther as much as others is because he lost his mask, as though I sometimes resent him for unmasking. Then I watch matches like this and I realise it's because CMLL doesn't let him work to the best of his ability. This was an excellent match. Panther wasn't even the star, as Rey Hechicero and Sagrado had one of, if not the most outstanding opening exchanges of the year. Hechicero also worked superbly with Panther in the second caida. This was a match I was incredibly excited by despite being a tag and would have been my favourite match of the year if the finishing stretch hadn't been quite so sloppy. Oficial 911 vs. El Angel vs. Trauma II, IWRG 2/18/13 This had some of the usual three-way bullshit, but they tried really hard to minimalise it by finding logical ways to take one guy out of the action. Unfortunately, that's not always possible and there was a bit of dead time as a result, but for the most part this was a decent brawl that maintained its energy. I was quite impressed with El Angel, who for a kind of low rent technico packed a decent punch and the right amount of starch behind his offence for this kind of fight. Match was good enough that I should probably watch the apuestas. Super Nova/Texano Jr vs. Ray Mendoza Jr/Villano IV vs. Casandro/Hijo del Pirata Morgan, V5 Retirement Show 3/16/13 This was the tail end of a ruleta de la muerte tournament on what was supposed to be Villano V's retirement show. Mendoza promoted the show himself, paid for some expensive indie talent, drew a poor crowd and lost about forty grand on the deal, which has forced him to keep wrestling and promoting. But as a YouTube video clip it was quite the spectacle. The crowd may have been poor, but they filled up the floor and were in good voice. The match was basically the kind of hard hitting, violent brawling that's been Villano IV's living for the past few years. It was solid stuff, but the highlight was seeing Casandro again. I'm not sure whether he was selling or if he had real problems with his reconstructed knee, but if that was selling then it was selling of a rare class. Casandro simply put is one of the standout performers of the modern era. He should be held in the same regard as Panther, Casas, Terry or Navarro, but we just don't have the footage to elevate him to that level. His performance here was notable not only for what he did in the ring, but the range he showed during the lengthy post-match, a blend of staunch, dignified yet emotional reaction to the ignominy of having his hair cut. An interesting contrast to the more manufactured Villanos/Morgan family issues sans-mask, though that feud has continued on Mendoza's indie shows and is probably quite fun. All in all, maybe top 5 for Mexico this year if viewed as a spectacle.

Blind drunk? All of those guys were far too lucid to be blind drunk.

Maybe, but he was trying to tie it into this Fringe Festival thing he's doing and the art of performing or something.

Listened to the intro and it didn't seem like such a big deal, especially as it was the first thing Cabana mentioned when he told Miz that they were recording.

That must have been before I was around. When I used to talk to him he was all about Shinjiro Ohtani. I haven't head from him in years, last time I'm recalling was in 2010, when I had my surgery and he wished me well. Baisden was a Canadian guy right? I remember him being a good guy.

Lots of BS about Lizmark as a worker in this thread. Wash your mouths out with soap!

Don't worry, I've been there many times before in World Cups.

Being as I'm from New Zealand and an All Blacks fan, I can tell you this much: when you win a lot, it's the losses that are more emotional and stay with you for longer. The only time the wins affect you, IMO, is when they're eff you wins if the team was disrespected somehow or if the ref screwed you over but you still won. Where Wales are right now is more exciting with that mix of excitement and trepidation.

Someone go digitalise all of Dave's lucha footage for him.

I thought this was much better than the Kandori matches, though with the clipping it's hard to tell exactly how good it is. If you're going to work death matches then barbed wire ones are the best as the action is confined to the ring more, which I prefer over crowd brawling. I also liked the constant struggling to throw each over onto the barbed wire board. That was a great dynamic.

I fuckin' love the Hammer. There are also Toronto and MSG versions of the Blazer/Valentine match. Neither are as good as the Boston match, but the MSG match has a sweat beatdown on the Blazer and Owen's string of near falls is pretty hot. The Toronto match has a chunk of the bout edited out, but you still get a sense that the two had a good working dynamic. What sets the Boston match apart is that opening armdrag section and the clever little transitions all the way through.

You know your DVDs can't arrive fast enough when you're watching all the available YouTube footage of workers you don't particularly like. In this case, I'm talking about King Ben. Ben was a heavy middleweight who mainly worked in the North. He was the father of young wrestler Kid McCoy, who was one of the staples of the later period of television wrestling. Here's a picture of them together: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-j_TGCF8fANo/UKX7...Kid%2BMcCoy.JPG King Ben vs. Kid McCoy (3/19/88) In 1988, the father and son pairing of Ben and McCoy fought this rather novel final for the 1988 Golden Grappler Trophy. Instead of McCoy kicking Ben's leg out of his leg, they wrestled a really clean bout with the odd bemused look from the old man and plenty of jocularity. The YouTube fetishists kind of bit their tongue over this one, though there were some weird comments like, "did anybody wrestle their dad when they were a teenager?" The bout fell somewhere between watchable and a bit of a bore. Ringo Rigby vs. King Ben (2/16/83) This was a short tournament bout that set up a final between Rigby and Dave Finlay. Rigby did a couple of cool spots, but Ben looked woeful on offence. King Ben vs. Little Prince (1/26/88) This was from Golden Grappler Trophy quarterfinals. Prince was a Pakistani wrestler who belongs the shortlist of hairiest men in the history of professional wrestling. This pic doesn't do his back justice: I'll spare you a report on the YouTube comments. The Prince made this interesting. He was extremely belligerent and attacked Ben illegally on a number of occasions when his man was either down or after the bell had gone. This brought out a bit of desperately needed fire in Ben, whose wrestling really wasn't good enough to carry a pure contest. Match ended in a draw after a messy finishing stretch and the referee awarded Ben the match on points. The Prince was screwed! I actually liked this quite a bit. For a match from '88 it was highly watchable. I've said this many times before, but I love how many different nationalities you get amongst WoS workers. Not all of them were real, of course, but it's still cool to see all these workers from not only the Commonwealth but other parts of Europe.

The guys they loved most were Hansen and Brody and Abdullah and Funk, not so much polite golf claps for Nick Bockwinkel. A dead crowd is a dead crowd or at least a quiet one. I think people get confused when the work is good as though the fans are engaged in the strategy of the match or something when they were probably waiting to see Baba.

Japanese fans pop the same as any other crowd. If you ask me, older wrestlers' comments about Japanese crowds are just an excuse for not popping the audience, since let's face it, most American wrestlers didn't know how to pop a Japanese audience. The biggest myth about Japan was that you had to go over there and wrestle a more serious match and that feeds into your idea that the fans are like fans of real single competitor sports. I haven't been to a lot of shows, but I've never come across any fan like that. The connection to the wrestlers is more important than any "real sports" element. I also think there are regional differences in terms of fans. People who watch Osaka shows will attest to that. There's a cultural shift as well. Your 70 crowds aren't the same as your 80s crowds which in turn aren't the same as your 90s and beyond crowds.

When I first got on the Internet the WCW/WWF divide was so strong. There was a lot of death riding of the WWF after Pillman's death and then Montreal especially by people who remembered what Vince had done to the territories. This death riding made WWF fans hugely defensive. When WCW dropped the ball with Sting/Hogan and the WWF started getting attention for using Mike Tyson the worm turned and I'll never forget that Tuesday when WWF won the ratings. My impression was that workrate fans or wannabe workrate fans as many of us were paid heed to the workers in WCW but a lot of older fans who were online had already begun to lose interest. I'm not sure if your older WCW fan ever really embraced the Hogan era. As for WWF fans, the main event was the only match that ever delivered any decent wrestling. That was the one area they excelled in compared to WCW and I think it was actually an important advantage when Austin got hot. I remember those WWF fans who did like workrate would pimp just about anything like that Hardys/Brood tv match, that's how desperate they were for good wrestling. Personally, when the Radicals jumped I was so disappointed with their early matches and with guys like Angle and Jericho that I stopped watching, but really the last decade or so has been by far and away the best in ring product in the company's history even if I prefer a lot of the older matches.

Sammy Lee vs. Mark Rocco (3/31/81) How can a guy as good as Rocco be so shit all the time? This was just awful. Sayama was so over with the crowd, drawing football chant level support, that it would've been a breeze to put together a hot match. After all, all-action, big bumping, show stealing performances were supposed to be Rocco's specialty. Instead, we got this turd-by-comparison, and believe me Sayama wasn't blowing spots either. Bluck. Spencer Churchill vs. Mel Stuart (5/27/75) Spencer Churchill vs. Mel Stuart (12/18/75) Churchill was quite the physical culturalist as Walton liked to put it. Mel Stuart looked like a smaller Dick Murdoch with not quite a quarter of the talent. These were every bit the preliminary bouts. They'd start with a bit of jockeying then Stuart would bend the rules and Churchill would retaliate, a pattern which finally woke the crowd up. I'm waiting for some new stuff to arrive and scraping the dregs a bit here. Can't imagine there being any reason people would want to watch these.

It's hard to say. Sometimes RINGS had shoots even before '99. If it's a work, it's curious why they would choose to work this way.

Simmons always has terrible ideas about tennis. I don't know why he bothers commenting on it when he's clearly not a fan. They won't get rid of the Australian Open since the attendances are so high, but it would be better if it were in February.

I'm glad people are getting something out of my comments. They're a small part of a much more epic thread here -- http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/i...?showtopic=2555 It was my great disappointment to discover that my new find Steve Speed was quite the enhancement talent. Despite that, I believe we have all of the footage from his times on television. Alan Dennison vs. Steve Speed (11/1/83) Walton wouldn't shut up about how unfair it as that Speed had to make his television debut in a catchweight contest against a wrestler the class of Alan Dennison. This was particularly annoying not only for the number of times Walton mentioned it, but because Dennison wasn't a particularly good wrestler. In fact, the only saving grace for this match was Speed bumping for Dennison's strongman act. One of the odd things about Walton's commentary is that there'd be these bouts where he'd be dismissive of one wrestler's chances right from the get-go and instead of praising the younger or lighter worker for putting up a fight he'd take aim at the matchmaking. Danny Collins/Steve Speed vs. Derek Collins/Pete LaPaque (6/28/84) The British Rockers weren't some blowjob babyfaces but a couple of boorish heels. This was Derek Collins' debut as a Rocker. I'm not sure what happened to Tommy Lorne, LaPaque's previous partner. He died in a car crash, but I think that was later. Anyway, this was a bit better than your typical WoS tag match. The Rockers actually cut off the ring and worked a somewhat Southern style, but there as no semblance of the hot tag and it was ridiculous watching Danny Collins get the winning fall without any involvement from either of the partners. No interference from the heels, no teamwork in clearing the ring, everyone just stood around and watched Collins get the pin. It's weird how under-evolved British tag wrestling was. Kid McCoy vs. Steve Speed (6/10/87) Richie Brooks vs. Steve Speed (10/28/87) Speed was from a body building background and got even bigger in the late eighties, hindering his mobility. The Kid McCoy match was awful. The Richie Brooks match was a bit better, but it's so hard to care about these young workers that were all over the screen in the late 80s, unless you're part of the gay British wrestling fetish sect who contribute 90% of the YouTube comments on WoS matches. Anyway, that'll teach me to think someone is a find after one match, especially a match against Steve Grey. Ironically, when I was checking the dates for these matches I saw that Speed was a replacement for Clive Myers in that match and wasn't scheduled to occur at all.

Lenny Hurst vs. Dave Bond (11/20/84) When Bond grew heavier in the 80s, he lost some of his athleticism but became something of a mini European Mark Henry. This started off with some decent strength holds with Bond demonstrating his size and power advantage and Hurst using his veteran guile to escape from Bond's grip, and with so many grey tufts of hair it really was veteran guile on Hurst's part. From there they moved into the heat segment where Bond used his array of inside moves to give Hurst a working over. All of this was perfectly solid and the crowd responded dutifully, but Hurst didn't really have the charisma to make something compelling out of a tried formula. Which isn't to say his selling as lacking, as he clearly tried, but the match lacked a certain spark that you get with the really engrossing rule breaking. Dave Bond vs. Count Bartelli (4/24/79) Bartelli was a big deal in British wrestling, a masked wrestler who went undefeated for twenty years until he lost to Kendo Nagasaki in 1966 or so the folklore goes. After that bout, he unmasked and reinvented himself for another decade plus run. I'm not a fan of late period Bartelli as I haven't seen a great deal of wrestling skill from him, but he carried himself like he had a great deal of wrestling skill, which is the important thing. This was the leaner, more athletic Bond, but a bit rough around the gills at times. In a huge surprise, they put him over here in what I believe was Baretlli's last televised match. Bond got a submission from a vertical suplex position, which as a pretty unique way to get something to submit. Someone in the YouTube comments wondered if it as a failed suplex, but I've seen it used before as a neck hold and I think it's kind of cool. Bobby Barnes vs. Chris Adams (10/11/78) Dave Bond vs. Clive Myers (10/11/78) Bond/Barnes vs. Myers/Adams (10/11/78) The promoters were constantly coming up with gimmick TV matches around this time usually involving teams of some sort. This was a tag team match that began with two singles matches before a two-on-two bout. The singles matches were one fall bouts that were shorter than your average WoS bout. Barnes was all class in his singles match wrestling quite a straight up match against Adams, who kind of sucked at this time. He was like the European Steve Blackman. Bond/Myers had a lot of up tempo action. Barnes was wearing a pimpin' hat before proceedings began. He looked like Bobby Womack on an episode of Soul Train. Myers was already doing his kung fu, martial arts fighter schtick here, but it didn't bother me too much as Bond was a solid foil to schtick like Myers removing his shirt Bruce Lee style. The tag match had some exciting moments, but as many of you are probably aware, Europe didn't do tag wrestling well. Yet worse than the tag match structure was the finish. This was quite a long TV gimmick, a good 30+ minutes of action, yet after making a considerable investment in the match, it ended with the heels getting disqualified for something pretty innocuous. Left me feeling like I'd wasted my time. Fuck knows why they couldn't have put the faces over clean.