ohtani's jacket

I found an interview with Maxx Payne where he talks about dojo life -- http://www.pinfalls.com/maxx.html

Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo (UWA World Welterweight Title Match), 5/14/92 This was such a beautiful Lucha Libre match & made a fool of me thinking Santo wasn't one of the great Lucha mat workers. If more of his UWA work was available, I think we'd get a bigger picture of how good Santo really was. Again, the single camera at ringside gives this a raw documentary feel, only it's not a glimpse of Santo working Durango. Sure he looks every bit the superhero during the introductions, with the belt around his waist & a glorious red cape, & his matwork in the first fall comes across as the height of old-school lucha greatness, but it's really about the other guy. It's kinda hard to pick it, but Espanto Jr. was a 36 year-old wrestler with 21 years experience and this was his night. The great thing about his challenge is how it swings. He actually manages to shake off Santo's matwork in the first fall, sending him to the outside, but back in the ring he gets faked out and takes a high back bump (a spot Espanto liked to do.) It's over after that. So in the second fall, when he shakes Santo off again, this time he stays on him. There's no room for Santo to breath, with the Lucha equivalent of body blows. He gets kneed, elbowed hurled into the turnbuckle... All of which he sells like the K metal from Krypton, but he's OK with it. Espanto pushes his luck in the third fall, however. Santo collapses into the bottom turnbuckle & Espanto can't help himself. Man, you do not piss El Hijo del Santo off. He springs out of the corner & starts hitting the nastiest looking stuff. It's his usual stuff, but you rarely see it this nasty. From there on out it becomes a survival game for Espanto. He'd lost to Santo a bunch of times before; his hair, his mask. And again it looked like he'd blown his opportunities, but the bleaker it became, the more he took on this sort of underdog quality. Santo even kicked the bottom rope. Until finally they reached that level of Lucha where they're just going for it, and it wouldn't matter who won, the crowd would throw coins anyway. But this was Espanto's night. He throws himself back into the ring after Santo's plancha, he kicks out of everything & he finally catches him out. Maybe not the most important title win in wrestling history, and it didn't last very many days, but a special night for a guy who spent a long time plying this trade (and very nearly died in the process.) If you're the least bit interested in Lucha Libre, the El Espanto Jr.: Un Guerrero Nunca Muere DVD is essential. Hell, if you like wrestling it's essential. Santo & Espanto had many other matches and this might not be their best, but it's a hometown boy done good and everyone likes that story.

The allmovie site is excellent too. It would be cool to have a database like that for wrestling, but albums, singles & movies are a lot more manageable.

El Engendro vs. Negro Navarro (NWG Intercontinental Title), 2/15/03 Negro Navarro's one of the only guys I enjoy in wrestling anymore, so if there's any dirt on him I don't want to hear it. I just want to enjoy seeing him do what he does for a living, even if it's in front of a tiny crowd in some gym in Guadalajara. The match is a throwback to when wrestling was about holds. They work their way in and out of holds, trying to catch each other out. There's not a lot of "fight", so to speak, just nous. It's one of those bouts where it's a mini victory to get a guy in a position he doesn't wanna be in, and they only sell when it makes sense from a grappling point of view. I wouldn't call it a great match, but I enjoyed it all the same. Towards the end, Engendro starts pulling out some fantastic looking stuff (a pretty clear indicator he's jobbing), but that cue to take it home was the only part that jumped out. Which isn't to say it's monotonous, it's just good stuff. That's all.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but Dave considers MMA an offshoot of pro-wrestling, therefore he lumps it under the pro-wrestling banner. It depends how much you read into the name "pro-wrestling", as Dave seems to look at it as a type of promoting and not a term for worked matches. Whenever I've read the WON or listened to WO Live, he's always talking about the way MMA is presented and booked, crowd reaction, that type of thing. Either that or he just really wants to write about UFC. One point I disagree about is the perception of MMA in Japan. It's lumped together with pro-wrestling as "fighting" or "combative sports", but people don't call MMA puroresu. And many of the fans it attracted weren't wrestling fans, particularly the large female fanbase. Does anybody know if Dave covered K-1 in '96/97?

I can kinda see where Dave is coming from in that it was covered by the Japanese press like it was pro-wrestling & run by the same people, so it makes sense to report it from a business standpoint, but the fact Dave really likes MMA doesn't hurt. Whether that's enough to classify it as some kind of subgenre of pro-wrestling, I'm not sure, but there was a hell of a lot of crossover. It would've been strange for Dave not to report on PANCRASE or PRIDE.

The point is whether you're surprised that mob hits ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

The fact of the matter is that wrestling glorifies its own undercurrent, hence why so many wrestlers are marks for themselves. Wrestling doesn't portray an opposite reality as much as you'd like to think it does. And your idea that you can enjoy things in a fictional context and find them horrifying in real life is weak. If something is horrific in real life, chances are it's portrayed that way in fiction. What would you say to a guy who came out of The Accused and said, "Great movie! Damn that was a good rape scene"? You seem to find a lot of stuff horrifying. Makes me wonder if you function OK. Pity there's no parallel in wrestling between a guy being beaten to death in real life & a guy being beaten to death in the ring, but when wrestling starts running those stories I'm sure you'll be the first to enjoy it in a fictional context.

If you look at the number of 80s stars who've died, there's only two I can think of -- Jackie Sato (cancer) and Jumbo Tsuruta (died in surgery after hep B complications). Nobody's been able to explain this. The usual arguments are better training, less travel, lighter schedule... But a regimented, disciplined lifestyle may have something to do with it. Not saying that they don't go out drinking with yakuza, sleep around or take recreational drugs. Or that they don't use steriods or wrestle hurt. But the lifestyle isn't the same. They're in the gym the next morning, not only body building but doing the same exercises they learnt in training. They go jogging for miles. To me, the old AJW system was the best. The girls were kept out of harm's way as much as possible & there were mandatory retirements after 8 or 10 years. Personally, I think 8-10 years is long enough for a pro-wrestling career. Mandatory retirements gave the girls a chance to do something after wrestling, the majority getting married and starting families. That system fell apart, but Japanese wrestlers still train well, look after their bodies & eat well. And often they know when to call it quits. Kazuo Yamazaki has a book in Japan about stretching. Most of it which look like yoga poses. How many US wrestlers train like that? Benoit may have done all of the above, but if you checked his system with the system of the average Japanese wrestler, I'd wager that Benoit's body was filled with 10 times the amount of shit. Perhaps more. I don't consider it torture, because I don't think the majority of people who go through it consider it torture. It's not like I'd be in the dojo shouting, "Punch him again! Put him in a body bag, Keiichi!", it's just that the mentality doesn't surprise me. Not in the least. The mentality in Japan is that wrestling is about, "Who is the strongest?" and "What does it mean to be strong?" They train hard because they think pro-wrestlers should be legitimately tough. They consider themselves to be legitimately tough. In that case, they're often quite deluded, but the mentality is that it's important to be strong -- mentally and physically. As far as the stories go, they go from sounding like jock or frat stories to things that don't quite fit with Japanese manner. But they're plausible. As far as the punching goes, we don't know how hard Liger hit people, whether it hurt, the situation (did he want the guy to get back up and hit him?), how the trainee felt, how the other trainees felt. Random punch and a random story. Anyway, our argument is taking away from the book, which is about Benoit and not Liger. The issue of blame and responsibility is always difficult in cases like this, and it's easy to backtrack and find points where people should've stepped in. Benoit was crazy all along is one theory, but doesn't explain a lot, like why Nancy married him and had a kid with him. And before anyone jumps on that & thinks I'm blaming Nancy, think of something more clever.

Your Schindler's List example doesn't work. The holocaust is something most people find horrifying (i.e. actually horrific, compared to exercises or punches to the face.) The movie portrays it as horrific. If you come out of that movie thinking the holocaust is entertaining you're a fucking idiot. The yakuza killing someone is considered shocking in Japan, but in movies they're glorified. A real punch in wrestling is horrifying, but a worked punch is awesome. Pro-wrestling glorifies violence and teaches us any dispute should be settled with violence. The idea that real disputes aren't settled with violence or that there is never any real violence in wrestling is preposterous. You don't have to condone it, but feigning horror is weak. Far be it for me to tell you what is or isn't horrifying, but: Wrestler kills his wife and child = horrifying Wrestler gets punched in the face = not much

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately. Yakuza kills someone in a movie = cool. Yakuza kills someone in real life = horrifying. Wrestler pretends to punch someone = cool. Wrestler punches someone for real = horrifying. You tell me who's being naive. It's only supposed to happen in the movies/worked match? It's not about condoning it, it's about being shocked or horrified.

Do you really think a 19 year-old Akira Hokuto would've been able to hold her neck in place without going through such training? Simply because she made good times on a bleep test in recruiting (or whatever drills she did)? I don't want to glamourise what happened, but most 19 year old Japanese girls would be in serious, serious trouble if it happened to them. It's an extreme example, but a situation that could've been really, really bad if Hokuto had been under trained & under prepared. I dunno if Hokuto was punched in the face, but I'd wager that she got hit & I'd wager that she would've ran away if it was too much. Whatever "guts" Hokuto had, I'm inclined to believe they came from endurance more than anything a raw, 15-year old rookie possessed. It's not that I think dojo training is the "right way", I'd have serious reservations if it was my daughter or son. But there are risks and I wouldn't want anyone going out there who isn't tough enough. You can say it's a work until you're blue in the face, but it's not that safe. Do I think Japanese wrestlers go too far in their "only the strong survive" mentality? Yes, Gompei should've never died. Do I think punching somebody in the face will save a life? No, probably not. But, just as I think it would be suicide to send someone into a boxing match who's never taken a punch, I think it's crazy to send someone into a ring who's never been roughed up. Perhaps my idea of roughing someone up is different from what actually occurs. Japanese wrestlers do every kind of drill over and over again, and they can't leave the dojo until they've finished every last one. The number of exercises they do may sound excessive, but they train that way in every sport. It's not Jushin Liger is sitting in an armchair, sipping tea & reading The Art of War. He could probably do the same amount of exercises in god knows how much time. Think about those jumping squat things they like to do so much (with your hands on your head.) It's insane the number of those they can do. I might have thought so before coming to Japan, but I don't know if repression is what I'd call it. I agree there's a lot of perfectly legal shit which shouldn't be perfectly legal. I don't know the reason for that, and I can't understand their censorship laws considering the content that's being depicted, but sex is everywhere in Japan, out in the open. It's enough to make you feel prudish or conservative. If they weren't getting any, I could understand, but that's really not the case. There's a lot of pressure on Japanese people. That much I can vouch for. But most people are normal. Last year, when the Sumo trainee died, people were shocked by what happened. But they quickly forgot about it & continued on with their lives, similar to people who browsed over the Benoit story in a paper. Most Japanese people don't care about sumo or wrestling, so I doubt they know what goes on in a dojo or how it differs from overseas. How much Japanese wrestling fans know, I'm not sure. I suspect it's not much. It says they're not as tough as they think they are. I don't think we have the same definition of horrifying... Even if it is horrifying to most people, I think you need to look at the root cause. Did the wrestling business make Chigusa think this is acceptable behaviour? Because I'd argue that Chigusa is the way she is because of her father. Who knows, dojos are off limits to the public. Considering pro-wrestling dojos are on the bottom rung, there may be more shit that carries on. Pro-wrestling isn't exactly the chosen career path for athletically gifted young people. Within the pro-wrestling dojos, there may be a difference between how the New Japan dojo was/is run and the All Japan ones. It depends on who's being trained. Kiyoshi Tamura runs a gym for regular folks & trains them in a regular way. I want to say there's a class system, but Sumo sounds far worse than pro-wrestling despite a better perception. Ok, I'm sorry. No, I'm wondering why people who expose themselves to fake violence can be shocked by real violence. The point is when they pretend to hit each other it's fine, but if someone gets hit for real it's horrifying. By that logic everything that happens in Japanese pornography should be OK, because they're only pretending to do it. That's twisting things a lot, but let's not pretend that Dick Murdoch wasn't a redneck and only played one on TV. Or that he would never hit anyone for real. Or that wrestlers are actors doing something totally unnatural for them. It's a work, but people are always arguing that wrestlers forget that. I think fans cling to it a bit too much. If wrestling were truly a work & so easy to separate from reality, they'd be far more normal people and far less wrecks. I really don't think you can argue that the Japan dojos don't work. You can argue with their methods, but the results are pretty clear. I haven't been to a show the whole time I've been here & only rent videos/DVDs because it's better than buying them. I've tried to tell people how dead wrestling is in Japan, but it upsets people. I don't even like puroresu that much to be honest. Maybe. I'd argue that Japanese wrestling does many things better than American pro-wrestling in regards to wrestlers' health. Do you really think the majority of the Japanese population enjoy that sort of pornography? Do the majority even know it exists? I don't think it's wise to judge a country or its people on their pornography industry. For one thing, 20% or more of the population are over 65. More than half the population are women. I'm not defending it just because it's Japan. The only thing that bothers me about the Japan aspect is if people start saying it happens because the Japanese are sadistic fucks or repressed perverts, since that's not how I know Japanese people to be. I defended it because I don't consider it to be torture.

Rubbish. They learn to take contact. The only atheletes who learn how to bump play non-contact sports, like soccer or basketball. Athletes practice in a safer and more controlled environment than "professional" wrestling, but I still say if you can't take a punch you shouldn't wrestle. Just like you shouldn't play rugby if you can't take a tackle or ice hockey if you can't handle body checking. Wrestling requires physicality. Learning to take a bump is not going to help you if you get smacked in the face from an errant knee. Jushin Liger punching people in the face is probably some test or form of discipline, but who'd go into a Japanese ring without sparring? So, what the NJPW dojo does brain scans to find trainees with a neurological disposition towards pain tolerance? Dojo training should hurt and hurt like a mother. First of all, I'm from New Zealand. Second of all, "repressed nature of their country"? For a guy who harps on about racism any chance he gets, you don't mind throwing out the stereotypes. Americans wouldn't put up with this kind of training, I assume, but then I wouldn't use US pro-wrestling as a defence against fucking anything. Like hell it does. I know you've worked up this big image that it's like a POW camp, but wide-eyed hopefuls don't get a look in the door, let alone conned for money. Jesus Christ, GAEA Girls is not horrifying. Considering I looked long and hard for the date on this, for the book, I don't need it broken to me that someone dying in wrestling training or sumo training = not good. The point is some dojos are well run, others are not. Some have blood on their hands, most don't. The idea that the whole dojo system is fucked up because of one small, rather insignificant dojo is like lumping everybody in with Stu Hart & his Dungeon. Rubbish, calling it "banana rape" makes a mockery of it. It's a serious accusation and should be treated as one. OK, I WILL TRY TO DO THAT. THANKS FOR GETTING IT THROUGH MY JAPANIZED BRAIN. Do you understand your desire to see someone get punched, worked or otherwise? I see, it's all work. No-one's actually violent and aggressive by nature. Pro-wrestling lures normal people & normally trained everything ought to be honky dory. Wrestling fans can sleep peacefully, knowing they just saw a great brawl & nobody ever hit anybody in real life & it's great that worked violence is just a work. Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza. Well, the people drawing tentacle rape work like slaves, so I guess that connects somehow. Dojo life is pretty simple. Complain about it & you get punished. The means of punishment is the issue here. I don't condone sodomy or being beaten half to death. Nor do I condone breaking a guy because he's rebellious, won't listen or thinks he's tough. But basic dojo life -- sleeping little, eating shit food, exercising until you've mentally and physically exhausted (or throwing up), doing menial jobs and being treated like shit, being roughed up, verbally abused -- these things are OK. It sounds like basic military training & in a sense it's the same. It takes however many months to pass & once you pass you're never treated like that again. I couldn't do it, just like I couldn't train for the military. Doesn't mean other people can't do it, or that they don't appreciate the trainer who they may have hated for months on end. I didn't come to Japan to be near puroresu or any crap like that. I helped with the book as much as I could (which wasn't much.) Still, I won't abide by people who've been clamouring to get some dirt on Japan getting all giddy. If you can discuss the matter without throwing out ridiculous stereotypes about 125 million people or without fuelling your pet peeve over people who like Japanese pro-wrestling, I can accept any and all contrary view points. I always liked Matt, but considering the flack he took back in the day (some deserved, some undeserved), I find it ironic that he's so great now he's written the most important wrestling book ever.

So take the knives away from them. Don't let them near a stove. We don't want trainees getting hurt. If you don't want to get roughed up, don't enter a dojo. Don't try and be a wrestler. If the recruiting numbers are anything to go by, Japanese young people are doing just that. Even in Sumo where the money's better. Eh, fans who wanna see bladejobs and worked punches, stiffness and ass kicking brawlers, getting upset at real violence. What a crock. If you wanna watch something where nobody ever gets hurt, nothing bad ever happens and people's lives are never wrecked, I suggest taking up another hobby. Something without an underbelly. It's pretty clear that there's no safe way to do professional wrestling. And what exactly is the connection between dojo training & wrestler welfare, anyway?

If I want to play rugby & do light training drills, what'll happen the first time I get tackled? You can only build a threshold towards pain by experiencing pain, making your body stronger & toughening your mind. Why do you think they train the way they do in Japan? Because they're sadistic fucks? Perhaps some post-WW II baggage? Maybe it's because they're yazkua-affliated, so they follow the same intitiation rituals? How far can we distort the fact that they train hard. I don't know why Jushin Liger punches people. My first question is whether it's random. It could be because they're not doing the exercise right, or they broke a rule, or he wants to see how they react, or he thinks they're not tough enough or it's the same shock you get from being accidently struck in the face during a match. Or maybe he's a sadistic fuck. Whatever the case, I don't think being punched in the face is a big deal in a profession where a loose or mistimed strike can do the same thing. If I get hit in the face during a match, at least I know what it feels like. Excuse me if I don't find it horrifying or particularly immoral. I think there's an interesting debate to be had over the consequences of such training, but before that happens people need to stop treating it as a freakshow. How is it described in the book? I was thinking more along the lines of when Chigusa steps into the ring with the trainee in GAEA GIRLS. Sasaki killed a guy & should have gone to jail. One death in 50 something years? Perhaps there were more. Yeah, I have a better idea. I'll accept it as a fact and go around telling everyone that institutionalised banana rape is real. If it happened, then it's fucked up. No doubt. There's a pretty good chance that it did happen. It wouldn't surprise me either way. Sorry for not being gungho in believing it. The worst thing you can do is make a mockery of it.

Man Dave banging Debbie Malenko is a great story. They ought to be the bookerman.

Most fans aren't aware of it, but we are. So people need to be honest and say, "I know wrestling is fucked up, but I like it and can't stop watching," just like people know porn isn't good, but keep watching it without any concern for the actor's welfare or how shitty their life may be. We've now reached the point where people a wrestling fan is selfish, if we weren't already there considering we mainly watch it for free.

Wonder why someone is shooting on you in the 21st century? Respond by beating the shit out of him? I don't know what the protocol is for something that hasn't happened in over a century. I'm talking about accidents. If the average person was kicked in the face and broke their orbital bone, they'd hit the deck like a sack of potatoes. And they sure as hell couldn't hold a broken neck in place. However severe dojo training may be, it increases pain threshold & makes people tougher. Some trainees find dojo training easy, others struggle and are punished a lot. People who can't hack it runaway. The description about their daily life didn't make me blink. For years people have been praising Japanese workers & Japanese matches and now the system that trains them is horrifying? Harden up. Full-contact sparring is not brutal. The dojo system is open to abuse, just like wrestling schools in the US. I'd rather a dojo system that weeds out people than a fly-by-night school that cons them. Someone on DVDVR said the banana story is a "legend has it" story. Who knows if it even happened or how often, let alone whether it's an institution... I know Matt was careful about rumours & sourcing/cross-checking stuff, but if you believe everything you hear Jaguar Yokota had her head shaved because she got pregnant, needed to have an abortion and was punished by the Matsunagas. Or Nancy Kumi was a man-hating lesbian, who was raped by a client (possibly yakuza) in a hostess club. These rumours exist in Japan because the world of Joshi puroresu is alien to them & the idea that women could go without men too tantalising. And the rumours about the NJPW involve sexual acts of some sort. How surprising.

If you can't take a punch you shouldn't be in the ring. Seriously. What are you gonna do the first time you get hit for real?

They usually run away. I don't think guys getting punched is a big deal. If you enter a dojo you should expect to get hit and beaten. A lot. Beating someone to death is criminal & those wrestlers should have been prosecuted, but it was hushed up, swept under the carpet, to the point where you can't find any information on it in Japanese. The sodomy & urination is the type of thing I'd expect from guys like these. They're jocks, basically. The problem is violence begets violence. A lot of Japanese wrestlers come from broken homes, had abusive fathers or no father at all. They're angry & channel that anger into violence. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a shitload of domestic violence as a result. And the pattern of violence and humiliation (degradation) repeats itself. If your senpais beat the shit out of you & humiliate you, only strong-willed people break that cycle. A certain degree of violence towards trainees is part of training (and it's pussy to suggest otherwise), what's in question is the motivation behind that violence. Are you beating the shit out of someone to toughen them up, or because you want to break them for some reason?

Matt's a good guy & I'm glad he's getting published. I know for a fact he worked like a mofo on this.

I agree that inner conflict plays a part in wrestling narratives, and if a wrestler is good at selling or acting you can see that struggle play out. I also agree that bigger moves lead to greater climatic action, provided there's enough pressure. One of the reasons Japanese wrestling is popular is that matches go to the end of the line; a type of final stand, where the big move comes from some inner reserve. However, I don't think fighting spirit has much to do with winning or losing. I suggest you watch the anime Ashita no Joe for more insight into this. What I disagree with is the idea that inner conflict is the basis for all wrestling narratives. "Story" in wrestling is based on personal conflict. It takes a hell of a lot for a wrestling match to reach the level of inner conflict. It requires more than a hard, physical match. Your average match simply doesn't have enough at stake. As for variations on formula, they're fine and good, but first you need to master the form. A lot of young workers borrow shit from here, there and everywhere, from guys who spent years "mastering the form." You have to understand the form. otherwise it's like reinventing the wheel.

Some quick thoughts (haven't had time to read the whole thread): -- Good topic. There hasn't been enough written about this, largely because the standard of wrestling criticism is weak. -- Wrestling has a lot of "Story" elements, but doesn't tell great stories. A story goes something like this: a character has some desire. In pursuing his desire he faces greater and greater obstacles. The greater the obstacle, the greater the pressure, the more is revealed about his character. Wrestling does a good job with characters. The characters have desire. They pursue it & in good matches the pressure & obstacles mount. But a story is supposed to reveal "true" character, a revelation that changes the protagonist in some way. This is where wrestling falls short. Unless the significance surrounding the finish is dramatic in some way (retirement match, mask vs. mask match, heel or face turn, upsets, the odd title victory), the characters never change. If the characters don't change, then they're archetypes & it's not a real story. WWE, for example, is full of archetypes & not real characters. Rey Mysterio, Jr. is always the underdog & Cole is always babbling on about the heart and soul and determination of Rey Mysterio, Jr. His character never changes & WWE storylines get old because they lack character motivation. -- If you're looking for story in wrestling then the best you can hope for is some type of arc. In a great match, the character (even if they don't change) ought to be in a different place at the end than he was in the beginning. In that sense wrestling can play off the emotion of winning and losing. If the wrestler is good at acting or selling, you might even classify it as a character piece. All wrestling really needs is great acting and selling to create a sense of story. The best matches have narratives -- some kind of theme. -- What I look for in wrestling isn't stories, but rather pay-offs. Wrestling is good at creating set-ups (angles, feuds, promos), but all too often it lacks the payoff. Wrestling is shitty at blowoffs. -- Wrestling is a live performance. Sometimes adlibbed, sometimes planned and rehearsed. Sometimes booked well, more often not. There's no retakes and no redrafts. Each performance is like a first take or a first draft. You can't expect too much. I don't think it's anywhere near being the purest form of storytelling (that would be oral storytelling), but it is direct & interactive. -- Regardless of how well wrestling tells stories, people should look for "story" in wrestling. If sportswriters can do it, so can wrestling fans. There was an apprehension created surrounding looking for story that wasn't there, but the people who shouted loudest about that knew fuck all about storytelling to begin with.

This is kinda unrelated, but I read a quote from Kawada on Taue where he joked that Taue was from the country and only worked hard when the cameras were rolling. Baba apparently loved Taue, but was frustrated that he didn't work a tenth as hard as Kobashi and would rather go fishing than train.

El Hijo del Santo vs. Psicosis, AAA 5/3/95 There was some talk over at the surviving Smarkschoice board about whether this is any good. MJH mentioned that "at other times (especially the matwork and the finish) some of the execution is just really, really poor" and that "for a full singles match, Psicosis and Santo were having a bad night together." I thought this couldn't be right, but after a dozen sendspace attempts, I gotta admit -- stock's going down. Whenever people used to doubt Psicosis, I'd always argue the case for his lucha work, not only his bumping & catching, but the hair, the mask, the whole persona. His execution was never the greatest, but it fit the out of control, recklessness of his style -- the baseball slide off an armdrag, throwing his hands in the air before catching a dive, intentionally slipping on the apron... It was a trainwreck style. I like performers in wrestling. Anyone with a semblance of creativity. Psicosis played to the crowd & thus I thought he was a good worker, but having seen this & Psicosis/Juventud Guerrera vs. El Volador/El Mexicano (awful), he's looking more and more like a guy who was lanky & awkward. This is a match that's been pimped at various stages for having great matwork, or rather, for having matwork (i.e. the lucha matwork we love.) You can't have a lucha title match without matwork. AAA strayed about as far away from that as you can, but what matwork there is isn't great by lucha standards. By lucha title match standards, it's exceptionally poor. Whether it's Santo or Psicosis' fault, I don't know. It is what it is. MJH claims Psicosis is "horrid" on the mat, but whatever the case, they only got one spot to work -- the Santo headscissors. The rest of the time they either slipped or dropped the hold completely & the second fall was a mess. I wanna blame the AAA style for being flashy & making workers look crap, but they couldn't even work a surfboard spot without Psicosis having to balance with one hand on the mat. Now I don't have the most analytical mind for watching matches. I don't pay attention to stuff like transitions because it takes me out of the rhythm. I generally go on overall impression. The September Psicosis/Rey match had execution problems, but it was OK because of the shape of the falls and the overall arc. What I'm looking for here is a good two-fall shape. What I think you'll find is good dives. This match has two of the best topes I've seen from Santo. MJH is confused as to why rudos usually get up before technicos on a dive, and I didn't have a very good answer for him, other than it's a suicida type spot. The seconds come over and wave their towels & basically the rudo gets up because it's a common transition into his dive attempt. Sometimes they get a little lazy with it. Psicosis actually sells it pretty well. The dives more or less salvage this match. It would be wreckage otherwise, and not in a crazy Psicosis kind of way. It saves the rhythm in any case, since it picks up when Santo is going full throttle through the ropes. I'm pretty convinced that Santo never had a great singles match in AAA. Given how great Santo's singles stuff is from UWA that says a lot about the style. Now I'm wondering if Psicosis is the embodiment of that style -- all flash and little to show for it.