Johnny Sorrow

I think because at some point, it became fashionable to like Bradshaw. People on the IWC went crazy for his heel personna and all of a sudden Bradshaw was an Internet darling, which I never understood. And that comes from a guy who enjoyed Bradshaw in the ring since the mid 90's and thought he was rather underrated. But Bradshaw got a main event push for one reason only, he was a stooge to the office. The great matches with Eddie are Guerrero's masterpieces. Never got this late Bradshaw love, while it was obvious at this point that this guy : was a mediocre worker; never drew shit; ; bombed as a champ; was a big unprofessionnal bully. I thought you stopped watching in 1999. JBL was a blast. He was so great at his gimmick, he was a perfectly fine worker, was an awesome commentator. Seriously, you go back and listen to him on SD with Cole and you'll hear the funniest, and just best commentary in recent years. He was a modern day Jesse, as he didn't just cheer the heels and boo the faces. He totally put over London and Kendrick for example. He was their cheerleader WHILE not liking them being all "fan friendly". When he was bashing Miz and MVP, both guys were heels. And as MVP got better, he got behind him..originally because "MVP took him out for an expensive dinner" or some shit like that that was great. "got a push because he kissed the office's collective ass for years" is just another way of saying "worked his ass off for years doing whatever he was asked to do while creating relationships that resulted in being given a chance to be a headliner". Add in "loyal employee during the dark days of WCW kicking our ass". I see no problem with any of that in a shitty cut throat business like Pro Wrestling. Or pretty much any job. "never drew shit" That wasn't the point. JBL wasn't supposed to draw. The draw was supposed to be babyfaces trying and trying to beat this guy for the belt. And wasn't it Cena who finally did? Ushering in the next big thing?

Exactly. He's a top level bad guy who can lose a lot and never lose his heat, and has a protected finisher. As soon as they want him winning a lot, he will, and no one will question it. And hopefully he starts winning a lot based on pure cheating and possibly a valet or manager. Miz shouldn't be winning matches totally clean ever unless it's versus low card guys, like Trent Baretta. He should hang tough, get beat up, cheat, get beat up, cheat, get beat up, and have someone help him cheat, hit his finisher and win.

MOST OVERRATED 1. CRIMSON 2. Mason Ryan 3. Kevin Nash How can these three be over rated? Are there hordes of fans out there singing their praises?

I became a wrestling fan at 20. It was by watching Flair and Cornette, enjoying their rap, and enjoying them poking at the babyfaces. Why wouldn't I root for Corney and the MX against those idiots that R'n'R Express? Exactly what appeal would the R'n'R have for a 20 year old stoner into some garbage entertainment? Those guys played to the 11 year girls out there. John Heck, I remember thinking that Bob Backlund was a whiny crybaby and laughed my ass off when Albano and Muraco would make fun of him. And I was 14 at the time. Now, at the same time I would cheer for Snuka against Muraco because Snuka was cool. And when you were 20 John, I was a 16 year old stoner and felt the same way regarding Flair and Cornette. It just seems as if there's a lot of "super sensitive" folks out there who seem to want all their good guys to be, I don't know, Christ? Howdy Doody Backlund? The current worst was the "Poor Johnny Ace, that mean CM Punk is being a BULLY" meme over at DVDVR last week.

God I hope not. I hope it's just some limey use of "twat" as we know it. Just disrespectful as hell.

That's a great point. Abby DOES often end up not mentioned when people start up the whole "biggest black stars ever" talk, despite any arguments about drawing or all that. It's as if people forget he's black for some reason.

Wasn't that whole thing kinda debunked? Or at least it didn't go down quite like that? As far as I know, not really. Someone said, I don't remember who, that he wasn't surprised very much when that happened, that Joey was a tough little Italian while Bradshaw was just a big bully who would only mess with weak people and take advantage of guys inside the ring while they're giving him their bodies, but would never ever mess with tough guys. Yeah, as much as I found Style's political stuff repulsive, I admit punching Bradshaw made him love him for ever at least for one thing. Oh, the "Styles stood up for himself and got into it with Bradshaw" part is true. I'm just pretty sure the "Joey Styles kO'D Bradshaw w/ one punch" part is ...ahem...."exaggerated".

Shit, Nikita 91 is a pale shade of Nikita 85, as far as "Holy Shit, who can beat this man?" edit: Hey Butch, admit it. You fucking Great Britainers and attached Irish just make up new slang just to fuck with people at this point. "Buck lamps Slater in the chops" Lamps? "So Horner just twats Buck in the mouth and Buck falls out of the ring." "Horner connects with a sunset flip, only to get twatted in the face by Bunkhouse Buck with a mean hook. " I'm not complaining, as using twat in that way is awesome, and I'm stealing it.

I think Jesse got good on commentary by doing all those MSG, Boston Gardens, etc, shows with Gorilla that were at least three hours long and had a lot of shitty stuff that a guy could feel comfortable cutting his teeth on. The SNME Jesse with Vince was a LOT more "cartoony" than the Jesse who called monthly MSG shows with Gorilla. And Jesse should go down as an all time great for his losing it for real during the Uncle Elmer Wedding and then being the funniest guy ever.

Hart's book is thorough on everything, especially all the reasons he dislikes certain folks, and it's not in there. I just always got the impression that he thought every style that wasn't "Calgary or Japanese" wasn't good for whatever weird reasons and he just was honest about his brothers.

Anyone gonna go ahead and post the results for those of us who stopped subscribing?

I've never got the whole, "Aw, I feel sorry for that poor jobber who Beefcake gave a crappy haircut". It's some jobber, who cares about his hair? Is this a generational thing?

Wasn't that whole thing kinda debunked? Or at least it didn't go down quite like that?

Seriously, how does someone type that and not look at it and say, "What's wrong with me? When did I become Comic Book Guy?"

The whole deal with Gorilla always cracks me up. When I was a teen watching WWF we all liked Gorilla, AND made fun of him at the same time. All the shit that's been said about him being bad, we loved BECAUSE it was so predictable and bad. "They're LITERALLY hanging from the rafters, Jess.", "Shot to the the external occipital protuberance", "You can cut the electricity in here with a knife!", "I wouldn't buy a used car from that guy", "You gotta hook the leg, you'd think ________ would know better.", etc, etc. I always liked that he seemed to be fond of Ken Patera for some reason, always calling him "Kenny". Monsoon was great BECAUSE of all his dopey shit. No one was watching and thinking "Boy, he's making so and so look bad."

Gorilla and Jesse just felt so comfortable to listen to. It's tough to put it into words, but there really was a feeling of "I'm enjoying these two guys" that shone through, especially if it was an MSG Card on the MSG Network. There'd be a lot of boring "WWF early in the card" shit on those shows where Gorilla and Jesse made it watchable. And I always liked that Jesse and Gorilla always came off as being pals even if they disagreed. Jesse would even call Gorilla "Gino". I remember a very short lived "feud" between Ventura and Sammartino back then as well that was basically an announcer's feud. I remember Jesse in the ring and Bruno announcing with Vince and some sort of argument went on. It got dropped after, like, two weeks I think. Actually, any discussion about WWF TV announcing should include Bruno. Everyone's been pretty clear about whether or not they liked Gorilla..but Bruno was all over TV in the early to mid 80's and no one really talks about how bad he was. Especially for a guy who was and is incredibly well spoken.

The Tito/Savage no-DQ match from MSG. Not just Gorilla to be fair, but also Alfred Hayes and Ernie Ladd on color analysis. Even though Finkle shouts plain as day that there are no disqualifications, the three completely ignore that and spend the whole match bitching about the officiating and screaming for Savage to be DQ'd. I'm sort of agnostic about Gorilla as a HOF candidate and lean more towards the positive side than negative when looking at him overall. But that one match was a great one that I find to be a very tough watch because of the announcing. Things like that used to happen all the time in all the promotions back then. Matches would be No DQ/ No count out and the refs seemed as if no one told them, as well as the announcers sometimes.

Well, first of all it's important to describe the differences between the Spectrum, where the WWF ran shows, and the Philly Civic Center, where the NWA/ Crockett promoted. The Spectrum was a huge building, your typical Hockey/ Basketball arena that was three levels plus the floor. It was part of the Philly Sports complex of the day that also included the Vet and JFK Stadium and easily accessible from I-95. The Civic Center was located deep in the heart of town and was a lot smaller. It had only floor seats and one large level of seats above. The Civic Center NWA crowd was not full of little kids, mainly teenagers and adults. The WWF crowds had far more youngsters with their families. Also, the NWA shows attracted far more African Americans than the WWF. The NWA crowd was generally more "adult". The Civic Center was smoky, smelled like stale beer, and had a far more "rough" aura than the Spectrum and the crowds reflected that. As far as regulars go, I can't really say if the WWF shows had a lot of them. I'm sure they did but the place was so big and the crowds so big that I don't recall seeing the same people repeatedly. The Spectrum also was very strict on having you sit in your assigned seat. Now, The Civic Center TOTALLY had regulars, me and my pal Joey among them. You'd always see the same people, from the drug dealer/ scalpers in the parking garage, to the chick who sold merchandise and hosted a local radio show about wrestling, to "The Black Nature Boy", (not Scoot Andrews), a brother who'd dress up like Flair at every show and walk around the Arena going "WOOOO!". The atmosphere at the Civic Center always felt a little crazy, which is why we loved it. We were WWF Fans as well, but there was a disconnect of sorts as it was such a huge, well produced show where as the Crockett shows felt more gritty. As far as people only going to one or the other? Well, if they were running different dates we at least would try to go to both. When they ran head to head, we'd usually go to the NWA show, but if the WWF show was stacked or had some matches we wanted to see we'd go to the Spectrum. We also preferred the Civic Center because our folks would usually drop us off and go do something in the city, and then pick us up after the show. At the Civic Center we could get served beer despite being 16, and you could smoke weed in the upper level. Hey, just being honest. As far as the whole "heels getting cheers in Philly" thing goes, I'm sure that started when Backlund was champ, long before I was going to shows. But it was more prevalent at the NWA shows. And it wasn't because guys were heels that they'd get cheers. It was if they seemed "cool". For instance, Tully Blanchard would get booed out of the building, but Flair was ALWAYS super popular, especially with the African American audience. I watched Starrcade 87 Chi-Town Heat there on closed circuit and when Flair won the belt back the place was going fucking bonkers. But the Road Warriors also were really popular, as were Magnum TA, Jimmy Valiant, and Ron Bass of all people during his face turn. Luger was really popular, and so was Nikita. Man, Nikita was SUPER popular as a heel, while Ivan and Krusher were hated. Rude and Fernandez were insanely over with the crowd during their brief run, and when Jimmy Garvin officially turned face there the roof came off. Over at the Spectrum, the only heels I remember getting cheers were Savage and The Hart Foundation. Oh and Orndorff had a lot of fans during his feud with Hogan. I saw them in a cage match and the crowd was 60/40 for Hogan. However, when we saw Hogan fight Killer Khan, I'm positive that the only two people cheering Khan and booing Hogan were Joey and me. Which led to me getting loogied on by a grown man a few rows above me after Hogan won. Many years later, when WCW was just about to explode with the NWO, they ran one last show at the Civic Center. My wife at the time and I went so I could see one last show there and say goodbye. The place seemed so much smaller than it did when I was a teenager. I love Philly.

How dare you sir. The Bull was great. I remember him leaping up against the wall and robbing Johnny Bench of a Home Run once and it was spectacular. Granted , I don't remember much else but hey, I was a little kid. (Bull may very well have been not great in the field. But he was my childhood hero.) Luzinski was famously terrible in the outfield. Famously. The single most famous loss in Phillies history (Black Monday '77) was due to Luzinski's inability to catch a fly ball at the wall. For about four years though, he was a legitimate terror at the plate. I honestly was too young to recall. I just loved the guy and had posters of him all over my room when I was little. All I really remember is him hitting homers, so there ya go.

How dare you sir. The Bull was great. I remember him leaping up against the wall and robbing Johnny Bench of a Home Run once and it was spectacular. Granted , I don't remember much else but hey, I was a little kid. (Bull may very well have been not great in the field. But he was my childhood hero.)

I always liked it when Ross or anyone mentioned real sports backgrounds. As stated numerous times, it made guys seem more legit and also it made wrestling look like a legit "sport" for a guy to get into, in a kayfabe sense. I'd rather hear "He was a rough tackle for Miami" then "He was a garbageman who's decided to wrestle"ala the WWF "guys with other jobs" deal.

That would be pretty awesome. But only hardcore fans would get it. Nah, nonfans would get it as a joke name. "Ribbing" isn't a wrestling exclusive term.

I can certainly throw in my two cents on the Philly scene of the mid-80's, the fan attitudes, the NWA/ WWF promoting war all from the perspective of a 15-17 yearold. And I also bought every Apter mag from 84-86.

Besides, the Greatest match of all Time is Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard "I Quit Cage Match" from Starrcade 1985.