Benbeeach

I find much of the criticism and praise for this match both equally valid. I personally ended up loving it, if not as one cohesive 40 minute epic than as the sum of some really good/great parts. For all the flak it's catching online, I don't think anyone would argue it's abjectly BAD. Too much? Sure, but bad? Hardly Like quinten said, and Dylan, the attachment to the wrestlers themselves I think can and does go a long way. I think Kenny gets judged on the same sort of scale that Zayn and Owens and a couple others of that indy generation past do, where their quirks get seen as weaknesses by some despite crowds and the majority of fans eating it up. The "why does it have to be a Muta elbow?" question I think you can always answer in a "why not?" Why did Muta's elbow have to be a muta elbow? It looks like it adds torque and hurts more and is visually cool to look at. But beyond that, while I think the match is far from a one man show, and Okada did add that almost Cena-esque quality of making the stakes higher just by simply being there, this thing is all about Kenny. It is the culmination of his meteoric rise, from goofy junior to legitimate main event level superstar. To think the guy who was throwing hadokens (in and out of the ring), taking pile drivers from dolls and 9 year old girls, and wrestling in falls count anywhere matches on dirt mounds in the middle of nowhere, became the top gaijin not necessarily in spite of, but probably because of the fact that he is still that worker, still has that imagination, that zeal, that willingness to experiment, to give, to not be afraid to look stupid, to push, to think outside of the box. The table spot, which was built to beautifully, was the point where I said "oh okay, so he's legitimately willing to die for this. I'm all in" It was Misawa/Kobashi tiger suplex off the ramp levels of, different territory. (Top rope Dragon suplex aside, aren't there numerous instances of new seemingly would-be death finishers getting kicked out of on their debuts? Aj gave a top rope AA a sturdy two count. I can recall the ganso bomb getting kicked out of like 2 or 3 times. Did an apron version of a finisher ever finish a match in AJPW/NOAH? Its garrish, but it's also not some huge departure from the norm the last 25 years) More is more, excess is excess, but like everyone said, I can't think of many other instances where I could recall seeing a workers entire lifes work manifest into one match. If a match is going to be damn near obscene in it's levels of decadence, then let it be in the legit biggest match of your life on the second biggest stage in all of wrestling. It was the most...and this is a your mileage may vary observation...shawn michaels esque performance I can recall seeing. But without the over the top look at me in total disregard of my opponent working for 2, feel that some of Michaels best performances can sometimes come with. Kenny just left it all out there, to cap what had been his career year. This felt alot more earnest, and far less insidious. And the crowd which I didn't think was quiet at all, ate it up. The first 20 minutes they weren't making the camera shake or anything but I don't think anyone in that stadium had been conditioned to believe that the main event of the tokyo dome was going to end via backslide 4 minutes in. Trapping of the style perhaps, but I'm not sure that's a fatal flaw. There's something to building the heat (in the cheapest most holy shit high spots way possible, but sometimes its about the destination, not the journey) For all the things this match did in glut, I thought there were lots of little things it nailed too. A running top rope moonsault to the outside, is by no means a "little thing", but to make it look like it killed the guy taking it and not some pretty catch exercise is impressive. They still saved the one winged angel for what I assume is essentially kenny's crowning achievement. They made the crux of that avengers end battle finishing run a fight over a wristlock. A scratching clawing primal fight for escape only for kenny to lean in and get wrecked and level himself by the final rainmakers. The finishing stretch was equal parts headscratching as it was captivating but I much preferred it to 4 high fly flow to the knee variants of main events we'd be getting for the past couple years. It's not a flawless match, it's not a flawless style. It's certainly not 6 stars, it's not 5 stars, but it's comfortably upper echelon, if not all time, than for the here and now. There's a certain level of, I guess acceptance, that I think these matches are going to make us all come to (or not come to grips with). Wrestling has always been a "can do it, will do it" exhibition. It's why guys don't still work like lou thesz. In 2017, main events, with super athletic workers might have poison ranas as transition spots. It just is what it is. You can push back or you can shrug and deal with it. We aren't that far removed from what many consider the best match of all time having all time great workers treat german suplexes like arm drags. This is just what happens. If its going to be this kind of showcase than I'll accept it when it's one worker pouring his all into it on the biggest stage there is. It's match that accomplished things. Preserved okada as an ace. Proved Kenny as a (albeit psychopath) capable top guy in the company. Saved a future finish. Fititngly closed the show. Generated the kind of buzz a match like this has to. Has people all over the world, talking about new japan, and what they have, not just what they've lost. As a match, I loved it despite its flaws. As an individual performance, seeing what it meant to omega, if kenny never has another match better than this, he can be proud. billion stars. ...and this'll make one appreciate it the short concise tight match all the same

I just don't understand or adhere to the idea that one of the three biggest markets of wrestling there is, is somehow obscure. I don't think anyone is making the argument that the 44th best King of the Deathmatch worker you've ever seen deserves a spot on everyone's list. The 44th DIY punk band that never made it out of Portland probably doesn't need much consideration. The best luchadors of all time, are some of the best wrestlers of all time, period, where we're engaging (engaged) in the making of a list, of the best wrestlers of all time. It's not asinine to think they deserve consideration. If you can make the argument that Andrew "Test" Martin (I doubt he even received a vote, random example, very decent wrestler) is better than Blue Panther in your mind, I'd listen, and you should rank accordingly. But if you can't then maybe you shouldn't. You still can, you still could, you still did, but maybe you shouldn't have. Maybe I know no one's going to be able to watch everything, I sure as hell can't anymore, and not everything is for everybody, but the best always has a way of rising. If shoot style bores you, fine. Doesn't make it inherently boring, or hard to understand. Didn't mean it wasn't great. I think the best Fujiwara match in any setting is easy to digest and understand and enjoy. I think the worst Takada match will set you back some, but his best match won't. What is valuable > What you personally value. But a list made of the latter, isn't always going to have an equal representation of the former. It can't. There is no master list which is the undeniable right, and truth. Is what it is, especially at this point. Hope this exercise has opened up more people's eyes to more things. I think it has. There is something to the "weight of GWE" or whatever Parv called it, where discovering a wrestler under these circumstances makes it incredibly hard and taxing when you then have to rank where they list in the entirety of modern wrestling annals after having only seen 8 matches or something. But if you chose to undertake a great task then...

Somehow Negro Casas turned into Jay-Z, who wouldn't make a top 100, and all was lost

And who do you think equates to the beatles and who doesn't Parv? I could see a world, a list, where someone would have Casas over Flair, and neither of them number 1. I might disagree but that's the beauty of it all. It'd be much harder to envision one where there is Flair, and then a 100 wrestler gap between the next closest luchador. Do people not think Casas would make girls swoon and cry if he were on American Bandstand? Is that not part of the "canon"? If you don't have Ishikawa on your list you don't have Ishikawa, GangStarr's not your thing, whatever. If you summarily dismiss Prince...well then.

Not the hill I'm going to die on a list that's already finished. But there are some things, that just ARE great independent of what they do for us individually, personally, then now and in the future. I'm a 25 year old African American male from the inner city, with a life experience that is uniquely my own. If I was doing a 100 greatest musical artists/acts of all time list, maybe the Beatles were before my time and don't necessarily speak to MY life experiences and the things I enjoy in music, maybe they do maybe they don't. I think it would behoove me regardless to listen to some albums, read up on them and see if I couldn't to the best of my abilities, try and objectively find a way for them to be on my list. Or maybe I'd just be like dude, it's a list about music, and I know fuck-all about the beatles. Maybe it's time I raise the white flag and do my homework. "I don't value the British invasion" in my estimation doesn't hold any water. Like it's an option, but not one I would exercise. I'm not nitpicking anyone not having Dr. Wagner Jr's Proidgy HNIC album over Chris Harris and/or James Storms Toni Tennille and the Captain's greatest hits or something. I guess it's just a division between the a ) the 100 greatest wrestlers ever TO ME b ) who I think the 100 greatest wrestlers ever are They look similar, but aren't the same thing. And I guess we as a consensus came up with a list that was option b, derived of a 150 or so option a's. Or 50 option a's and a 100 option b's. Or some other unknowable permutation thereof. Sometimes a and b in the same list. Or maybe GWE was just the 150 greatest wrestler to us, just a brief sample of what our fandom and looks like in 2016 like it did in 2006, like it will in perhaps in 2026 and in no way meant to be definitive or serious. IDK. There's alot of IDK's here. The general feeling I've gotten from all the reactions, and wrap up articles and political threads and discussions on mobsters and nuclear bombs and Cyclone Mackey, is that the list is over, it's done. Thanks everyone for participating, no matter what your list looked like, and now we're tired and done with it and ready to move on. Can't say I blame anyone for these feelings. Lists such as these or about music, art, etc.. are natural "what the hell is this all about?" reactionary exercises. People getting mad or sad or feeling attacked because that's exactly what happened, shouldn't be shocked with what they signed up for. But I think I've said my peace on the matter.

I didn't say where and who Santo or a Kobashi or a toyota (if she'd even rank at all) should rank over. Just that they should rank in the 100. I liked the idea of the 150 someone else mentioned. Just seems like a more inclusive number. Harder to do perhaps, but would just represent this wide diaspora a little better. That said, I'd answer a serious question with another question. And this is really stuff better reserved and discussed during the nomination period, and it was touched on quite a bit but whatever. What does not valuing Lucha as a style mean, exactly? The person finds it all to be rubbish and not..idk worthy of being discussed amongst the best wrestling, with the best wrestlers to ever exist? Is that what that means? Because I find that, to be rubbish. And again, maybe some less time ranking and more watching and reading and learning might be what's in order. Not to rule and cast down with an iron fist, I'm just one poster, one opinion, of no power nor significant value, just a suggestion. I don't think someone has to be cubsfan or ditch to have a fair list to them and to the workers. But the sheer dismissal of entire genres, will always feel like too much. What one does and doesn't find great and what undeniably is are two different things. I know what board I'm at where what can be universal to a certain subsection, michaels, angle, bret to certain levels, can be broken down, thought critically of, and so on. But if you're not even willing to start down the path... If someone in the nomination thread had a list of all the reasons they didn't think Negro Casas belonged in the top quarter of workers, I would have LOVED to read that. I would have listened to the terry taylor and Magnum TA over Casas argument. I would have laughed, and disagreed, but I would have engaged. But it didn't happen. If in the future people are going to leave off certain wrestler of a certain caliber, maybe it should, or maybe we should start watching more and/or giving other styles another chance. But again, what do I know

You're wrong. If thinking Misawa Santo and Kobashi should belong on nearly every top 100 list, and that Lucha doesn't get watched or discussed with nearly the regularity or fervor American and Japanese wrestling do, then yeah . . . I'm wrong Will.

I said a year and a half ago...I don't know how much stock I can put into a person's list, who has never seen Misawa, or simply "didn't get it." I respect that every person is in a different place in their fandom, but there was no penalty for not voting. Like it was reiterated earlier, if Randy Savage was major homework for someone (this can be defined a wide myriad of ways) then maybe they just shouldn't have participated. It's not pleasant, and it might hurt alot of feelings of people who feel like their fandom is being seen as devalued, or inauthentic compared to others BUT if you and your list don't think that one of the 100 greatest workers ever was a luchador. It IS wrong. If you don't think one of the 100 greatest wrestlers ever, was a woman, it IS wrong. The list goes on... You can say where do you draw the line, and where does that line start and end? I don't know if anyone has the answer to that, but those are great lines of demarcation to start at. There seems to be this grand hand holding over the last year or so of people trying to not step on toes, and I can understand people wanting more new users on the board and not wanting to alienate but dammit, when I started frequenting message boards almost a decade and a half ago, a lot of the time it was people schooling other people on just how much they DIDN'T KNOW, and showing them the way. I think there's alot of "Well WHO ARE YOU to say what list is valid and what list isn't?" going around, and because wrestling and because subjectivity and because blah blah, there is no true way of knowing, but me side eying and berating a list that doesn't have idk El Hijo Del Santo on it, isn't a referendum, on me, and damn sure isn't one on Lucha. It's on the person who made that list. Because someone else doesn't see the greatness doesn't objectively mean they're wrong (yes it does) and I'm right (yes it does) There's always going to be biases and blind spots, for everyone, in different areas, which in turn we'll look to sort of balance each other out. But i just can't buy that with two years, it could and should still just boil down to a favorites list. With a justified and I say that term loosely, "BUT IT'S MY LIST!" Call me curmudgeony, divisive, what have you, an old fossil from a bygone era of discourse (I'm only 25) but I do think there's some undeniable greatness in some workers, that can't be denied. For some it was obvious like Flair, for others, not so much. I'm not against people voting on what they know, a mainstream pick, a contrarian pick, a whatever pick, because at the end of the day, all you know is all you know. I just would want people to do the work. Seek more footage.Whatever they think the work is, to have the best list possible. Do your own BIGLAV or whatever and figure it out. I know from this list people will watch more things from different promotions and workers and that's the benefit of it. But at the end of the day, if people aren't shredding some of the biases, nostalgia and favoritism, it feels...like a moot exercise. Shawn Michaels is my favorite wrestler ever. I know Kobashi and Misawa were far better workers. I would list them all accordingly. If your list isn't willing to do that with your favorites and non favorites alike then, what's the point I reckon? I don't think KrisZ is alone in his thinking. I think there was alot more deviation from the mainstream than it sounds like given the results, but like other's have said, I think what we consider the mainstream of smarkdom has just sort of expanded. We've ran American imperialism into the ground, but I think it's safe to say alot of lucha is still on that periphery and not quite in the same place post 80s america and Japan are.

Probably around the same spot, since it's nearly impossible to be higher! Sorry, that was me being a smart ass but it is amazing that he was able to make such a strong historical case for himself during a time period where it was difficult to do so. lol good point

I love AJ as much as the next guy, but the highs Danielson was able to consistently hit were just higher. AJ had the ability, talent, the pedigree. He was of Danielson's caliber, but Dragon was Dragon. Like Parv said "it's not about the career you could have had" and AJ's had a great one. Danielson was having great matches as early as 2001, and was legitimately a great wrestler by 2002. My brain says maybe he's a little high. My gut says he's as good as anyone who's ever laced em up. ...had he gotten a proper Ace run in the WWE, who knows where he could have landed.

AJ Styles has at least been very good for the better part of 14 years, periods of true greatness the entire time. Top 10 is lunacy, anything after that . . . glad he is where he is

Read this entire thread and still don't see the argument for Bret over Kobashi, by 13 spots no less, but alas this ship has sailed.

Kobashi didn't have a beg off chop, or a cocky showman chop, but did Flair have any chops that were believable near falls? I think its a tie . . . leaning Kobashi as overall best chopper of them all

Important. She didn't become the easiest person to deal with. There's a really hard to listen to Opie and Anthony interview with Sean Waltman that's just . . . yeah

This is going to come off more judgmental than it's meant to, and there's no way to know the true in's and outs of a situation like this, but I just feel like she was owed more. Love is tricky. The kind HHH and Chyna had is probably incomprehensible to us, with all the twists and turns and insanity that is pro wrestling. And it's far from HHH and definitely not Stephanie's FAULT that this happened to Chyna, but again, she had the wholly unfortunate burden/task/what have you of having, friction is probably a fair word here, with one of, if not two of the most important people in the company, and not having the good fortune of say a Sean Waltman or Scott Hall, who were and will always remain a life long friends with similar issues. Again, and for reasons both obvious and less so obvious, I think it just wasn't as easy for a HHH to reach out to Chyna (if he ever really wanted to or not, there were those domestic abuse allegations) or vice versa as it was say a Bruno or whomever. No Duh. The porn being the hall deal breaker thing, while not seeming completely unmeretous, does kind of look a bit hypocratus given Sunny's more recent activities, and Sean being bandied about every hall of fame weekend. Not an apples to apples comparison but this was the same company that was 100% behind her (two?) Playboy centerfolds. A very convenient excuse? I guess who are any of us to really say? Chyna was a monumental, transformative figure of almost a hard to define and conceptualize popularity. She should have got the flowers while she could still smell them. We shouldn't be burying her. But alas, Prowres ---EDIT--- For as much HHH gets piled on for reasons both very deserved and some unjust. I can't imagine this being even a close to remotely easy time for him. No matter what the particulars are, saying the final goodbye to someone who was once the love of your life. For lack of a better phrase, is some really tough shit.

Seems like a bit of a reach. She was on the Surreal Life before that. The post WWE years just weren't kind to her. Cruelly unkind.

Unless, like, she died in a car accident or something. Let's at least wait until we've got a cause of death before officially deciding whose fault her death was. That's fair. Found dead in her home by management does give off a certain vibe. Given her history. But I see where you're coming from. In isolation, it does appear a bit crass

There's no one ultimately to blame but the individual and their actions, But I've been keeping, I don't know, tabs is probably the wrong word, but just track of Chyna and her spiral post WWE for what feels like almost a decade now. I want to be surprised, but I can't be. I want to assume that she had been afforded all of the same wellness opportunities other former WWE wrestlers get if needed. But I do get this really pitting feeling in my stomach that for reasons, we probably don't all need rehashed but are going to get talked about regardless, it wasn't always easy for her and the WWE to come mutual understandings. I think she belonged in the hall of fame, and I think a ball of sorts was dropped when she wasn't put in. I get why, it didn't happen, but I think it could have went a long way into saving her life. But that's said she had so many issues, that had very little or nothing to do with wrestling at all. It's really tragic, as these things so often are. She was a one of one. Truly unique, and perfect for her time. RIP

I'd take Rollins over Ballor almost 10 times out of 10. Rollins knows how to hit all the emotional highs and lows to go with all his flying and cutsie offense. He added tons of layers with that championship run and he was always more or less solid on the indys. How Ballor gets that entrance every big show, and still remains one of the most wooden wrestlers they have is mind boggling to me.

Main stream is probably on capcom fighters Funkdoc. Have you picked up V?

Any of the BJW guys. Ito, Mammoth Sasaki, Yuko Miyamoto, workers of that ilk. Don't really see a case for any of them, but then again, workers like Vince were nominated. (Was Floyd? He's probably the best one off in history)

Cena also has done some of the best subtle short and long term selling of anyone in the history of the company. Nature of the beast. I didn't learn this just recently, as I've always been this way, but perhaps had it reaffirmed, that I don't believe in absolutes. Or Universals. There is no limit to the kind of wrestling I can learn to appreciate and enjoy. Now I might be a notoriously easy judge and it doesn't take much to entertain me, but if something isn't working for me, but has worked for hundreds of, thousands of, millions of others, then it, by all accounts, WORKS. Perhaps there's talisman out there needed to unlock all the goodness behind certain styles, and I would encourage everyone to find them if they hadn't already throughout this grueling process. I think almost every style of wrestling has those performers and matches that stand out as fantastic no matter what stylistic idiosyncrasies bug even the most staunch viewer. Plenty of lucha, shoot style, european, american indy, deathmatch, joshi for dummies workers and matches. There's just simply been too much good wrestling from all over the world, of all kinds to just summarily dismiss because it does or doesn't "check one of my boxes" But that's just me, and what one does or doesn't like is inconsequential to me.

Ted Turner as the higher power is seriously the best thing I've ever read.

Ok, that I could see, but in the pre match build (just going by on the PPV itself) Vince doesn't talk up Shawn as some kind of chickenshit. Nor is a Sid bodyguard cheap shot spot booked. Could argue he could have done more heelish things...I don't know, more eye rakes or something, but it looked like a match where Shawn was supposed to look like a credible near equal. Vince talks of Diesel as being an underdog coming in, on commentary, of course due to Sid, but also due to Shawn not being some kind of push over. Shawn yacks off pre match and post match, and manhandles camera men (his pre comeback signature I'm a dick spot?) during the match. It's not like Shawn stays heel that much longer after this match. Maybe this was the point of transition? For what it's worth if Shawn is in some kind of grey area, in this match, Diesel is clearly the face, he "beats the odds" has the hulk up, cool power spots, plays it completely clean. I didn't get some kind of sabotage feeling from this match. Whether Vince and Pat could have booked it differently, sounds like a completely different argument. And This was always kind of the way Shawn working heel, before 97. He doesn't work Razor the year before any differently really. He's a little more demonstrative of an asshole in that match, and other matches, especially post rockers break up, but he also does the athletic Shawn shit too. I can buy that in what up to that point had been the biggest match of his career he tries to play it as straight as possible (with the threat of nefarious tactics forever looming).