El-P

Can't say that worked very well for them. But yeah, juice is good when used sporadically. Especially now I'd guess.

Ok, because sometimes (a lot of times ?) I know these things are blown way out of proportions and taken out of context.

So, Lance Storm apparently doesn't get that Britt Baker is supposed to be the star of the promotion. And that Thunder Rosa is not even *signed* to AEW yet. Of course you have to focus on the talent designed to be *your* biggest star. Also, no, that loss doesn't technically counts because it's a lights out match. Also, a heel coming out to celebrate despite having lost is pro-wrestling 101. The one thing I agree is that they need to absolutely *not* do another match. In a year, in a different narrative context, why not. But it has to be done between the two of them for now. I must say, pissed off Lance is pretty funny though when you look as his face. So damn serious.

Agreed. I don't see how this can work well for AEW, although honestly Jake Hagger is not affected by doing MMA. Of course it's not the same case, one has not the same potential as the other in term of becoming a star in AEW, to say the least...

Ca you picture the reaction if you've said the same thing but the genders were reversed ? It would be called objectifying and sexist and whatever. And you can still argue that very point is sexist because what does that say about the women viewers, really ? Of course you're right (Dragon Gate anyone ?), but I think it's interesting how sometimes some stuff get undersold, about how pro-wrestling has always sold bodies and looks (not strictly this of course, but it has been part of the game for at the very least the last 30/40 years). It's been showed that women wrestling in WWE did not draw women well either. Riho did, so there. More Riho, less blood. Which is understandable. As far as Britt complaining, I've not seen it so I won't pass judgement, but if so that's really dumb. I mean, fans complaining about the Metz ratings is stupid, but a worker doing it... Really ? I mentioned in the HOF thread how I had much more sympathy for artists who did not care that much about those things. Plus, it's not like Meltz did not say it was like the best and most memorable women match in the US in forever, may one of the Top 2 ever (despite really disliking the style BTW).

IMPACT has the most coherent week-to-week booking you'd want. Everybody's got something to do, it logically leads to TV matches, logically leading to the big match the PPV/Special. Now, whether you want to see those matches in another matter, but in term of making sense and going from A to B to C, IMPACT is just straight on point.

That's reversed gatekeeping, basically. 20 years ago we would spend 25$ to buy VCR tapes from bizarre Japanese indie promotions and that was absolutely considered the normal thing to do. Today, you're kinda pissed that the big announcement of the week is a dumb real TV show > "Wow, you're such a weirdo man, plus why do you even watch those guys doing flips in promotions no one cares about, ya nerd ?" Ooooook.

That's right, I knew there was something important going on with Hase too but did not remember exactly (damn... getting old). Similar stories of abuse have happened in sumo before.

BTW, no one has dug up the story about Great Khali being reckless with a concussed guy during a training session in APW, with the ending result being the guy actually died ? I'm amazed.

Indeed. That's pretty much the only black spot on Liger's record, but it has been talked about before. We can't forget that in the 90's, a young kohai died in the NJPW dojo while "training" with Kensuke Sasaki (was Hiro Hase there too ? I don't remember the details). I probably reads way to much into this, but to me the whole Sasaki family man image in the 00's and almost adopting Nakajima as a son really stemmed from this. Either out of guilt either to whitewash his image, maybe a little bit of both. But it's kinda mindblowing that this was basically swept under the rug.

Well, that is one hell of a double-cross. Thanks for the insight !

If I never hear the words "geeks", "nerds", "weirdos" ever relating to wrestlers and/or posters on PWO no less, it'll be too fucking soon. The "look at us we're so mainstream and normal" shit can go away yesterday. Fucking normies.

I don't think it has anything to do with AJ vs Taker. Remember the House of Horrors match (with... Randy Orton too... ) ? Remember the worms on the map ? It's been Wyatt's thing for a while now. This is just pushing it to the extreme, but my guess is that it's Wyatt's great "creativity" pushing most of this stuff. I mean, he also had that "thing" with Cena last year.

Well, the American Bad Ass gimmick was pretty much a giveaway of who was Mean Mark IRL. The irony, when you think about how he hated to have the US flag on his Taker outfit at Survivor Series 93 (per Bruce Prichard). Agreed.

I knew the porn analogy was a bad idea the second I typed it.

I'm pretty sure I saw *that* movie. Or a remake maybe... Or a prequel...

I'd love a Bloodsport-like promotion done as Lucha Underground was.

The whole storytelling aspect of pro-wrestling is way overstated and overrated. I mean, sorry if that offends anyone but watching pro-wrestling for the stories is like reading Playboy for the articles (or watching porn for... well, the stories, too). And I don't mean the angles, who really at best are so simplistic that they would make mediocre plots for a Transformers cartoon episode (and at worst, really, really the dumbest shit you can find anywhere). I'm talking about the in-ring stuff. What is so compelling about the stories told inside the ring, really now ? "Oh, my leg got a boo-boo, the other guy is kicking it and so I have to fight on one leg to win the belt !" "Oh, the bad guy is cheating and the good guy is crying and now he's making a comeback. Yaaay good guy !" OOOOOKay, that's stuff some 8 years old could write. You want compelling stories ? Read Dostoïesvki of something. What makes things actually compelling is the *form* of pro-wrestling, which is unique. There's exactly nothing like it, which is why it's so hard to compare and nail down because it's not really theatre, it's not really circus, it's not really sport, it's not really acting, it's... pro-wrestling. And the form through which those stories are told is what makes it so fun to watch. Which is why, sorry to say, execution does matter (with a degree of acceptability depending on the context). Which is why also pro-wrestling is actually progressing with new generations because as we get new kind of athletes, they can do more and invent new kind of forms (new moves but also new postures, new ways to move inside the ring and even use the physical elements of the ring and its surroundings, new ways to use yours or your opponent's body). The stories are always pretty much the same and are really not that interesting in themselves. What the moves (very broadly speaking) mean sure is important, but in the end pro-wrestling is not a language at all (it's not even a code). It has its value as a pure form, in and out of itself. Which is why an out of this world spotfest will always be much better (to me, doh!) than a logical but dull "good story". It's not a surprise that the usual excuse for some of the worst shit is "But we're telling a story", as Bruce Prichard would say (which also finds its way into "He's playing his role right", which doesn't matter when the role ain't worth shit). Well, telling a story doesn't mean the story is good or even interesting. The form(s) of pro-wrestling is what makes it so unique and great. Or so terrible.

Well, we don't know what the fans really *thought*. There's no way of telling. And no, surveys don't work, because people lie. BTW, that supposed double-cross shoot, whatever that was, was brutal to watch. Rikidozan stiffed the hell ouf of Kimura. Those punts while the guy was on the floor. That's Maeda level assholliness. The story remains unclear to me, although Kimura stated that it was a double-cross and it sure looks hellish. If that was the case, then Rikidozan really was an unprofessional asshole (they never worked again after that point either). If not, well, they sure made it look good.... Stuff like this killed the perception indeed, but where does perception ends and belief begins, that's a mystery.

You're absolutely right. And that doesn't mean they are genius (which don't exist) or that they don't screw up and have terrible ideas at times. Like every successful booker had. The greatest minds also did some awful stuff (Gedooooo, what's up with Great O Khan and EVIL ?). There's not one great of even good pro-wrestling mind that is not gonna make really bad mistakes (Hey Choshu, wanna put someone from UWF-I over ? No ? Really ? Ok). Agreed. Also, Heyman working for so long in WWE may be pretty much set in his ways in more ways than one, so having him around really should never be about giving him full creative. He still has an eye on younger/fresher talent as showed by the guys he wanted to push last year in WWE, so there's that.

I'd much hire Scott D'Amore than Paul Heyman in 2021. I wonder were you got that impression from... Meltz posted funny bits of on old interview with Karl Gotch bitching about the young guys (from the 80's) not knowing how to work and making things unbelievable and doing trampoline shows instead of legit looking pro-wrestling and how that is killing the business. Like, word for word the same stuff we hear today. Meanwhile, I'm currently going through Rikidozan matches and I see soooo much totally ridiculous stuff even by today's standards. The idea that pro-wrestling was ever "believable" in and out of itself is ridiculous. What should be studied is the sociological profiles of audiences over times and places and the relationship they had with the idea of believability in such a spectacle, all of that wrapped up in an ever changing context of entertainment industry. That would be much more interesting than shouting at clouds because "young guys can't work and are killing the business".

That it took 97 is undeniable, that's well established. My question is, has it really that much to do with the fact both Cornette and Russo were involved ? The Austin push happens because of Bret wanting to work with him. As far as the TV goes, I haven't watched it since it happened and probably won't ever watch it again, but I don't think it was setting the world on fire apart from the main stuff. The undercards were brutal (GANG WARS !!! With babyface white powers bikers). As a matter of fact that was the talk of the day, WCW had the hot under/midcards and big angles and shitty matches on top while it was the opposite in WWF (that is, until those dreadful Taker matches in 98), with the little difference of WCW main events actually drawing big then. The hot stuff in WWF was only at the top of the card (Austin vs Bret, Austin vs Hart Foundation, Michaels vs Taker, Michaels vs Bret), and we know Vince was always all over this more than anything else.

Yeah, I think it was Johannesburg. But was it really ? If you don't have the rise of Steve Austin due to the great feud with Bret Hart and the most promising rookie ever showing up at the same time (and almost tanked due to really tone deaf booking at first), does the hugely successful period happens ? I guess Russo has more to do with DX's rise in the fall of 97 since it was more his style of bullshit, but when Russo really takes over, Austin is already on a launchpad and nothing is gonna stop him while The Rock found himself already and it was a matter of time. If Russo isn't there and they don't do the crash TV shit in 98/99, doesn't the huge successful period still happens because Austin was just red hot and the Mr. McMahon character (who stemmed from the double cross which was designed by Cornette) was just the perfect foil ?

Obsessive workaholic micro-managing sociopath. Yes, at this point : it doesn't matter. Maybe at one point it will again, but as of now, it doesn't. They've reached the top of a system where their revenu is almost totally detached from what they are actually producing. When they get shitloads of money from MBS, it has nothing to do with booking or creating stars of being hot, it's just a communication performance because of what their Brand is. More than ever before we live in an über-capitalistic world where the Brand and its narrative is everything. It's an illusion (which is why part of why the workforce can be exploited even more than before because the actual production is almost transparent, we barely pay attention to it while we consume Brands like WWE, Netflix and whatever). WWE with the same booking 25 years ago would have been slaughtered by an up and coming WCW. Now ? Doesn't really matter.