El-P

Couldn't agree more. Romanticism, or even exoticism. I mean, to me, watching an old NJ match from the old Ryogoku is like watching an old Fukasaku movie. It was never my culture, I was never there, but I can project a lot on it, including mostly what isn't really there. And people waxing poetics about old US crowds, whether they knew it from their own past or just love it for its aesthetics, are doing the same. They are projecting either their own nostalgia or just plain mythology that was built with the years.

Who gives a fuck ? It's an indy match. Both got a payday. Osprey's profile only gets bigger because of the whole deal no matter what. Work, people, work.

Doesn't matter. "Workrate = evil" in our circles directly comes from the Benoit tragedy, as it had anything to do with it. Bryan's early and forced retirement, much like the Wellness Policy, directly comes from the Benoit heritage too.

There is no Post-Bryan era. We're still in the Post-Benoit workrate guilt era (not talking about the mainstream crowd of course, who don't give a damn about that nonsense).

Save the patronizing for someone else Parv. Terry Funk is my favourite pro-wrestler ever. At this point, I do think these kind of chants are part of the fiction in a way, because the workers clearly work toward getting them. Different times.

You really know your way into babbling about nothing and make it seem like you're actually saying substantial. The problem is that I wasn't arguing at all with my last remark. I was just making a remark using another political term we discussed before as a link. Call it abstract poetry. Or maybe you can read it simply as "Well, if you call Austin's "philosophy" libertarian just because he was an individualistic prick, maybe I can call you a fascist because of your idiotic remark about "people"". Make it your own, my words are always good for interpretations. We're posting on an american based pro-wrestling board talking about US pro-wrestling. When you say "libertarian", people think (I guess), about Ayn Rand shit. And as far as the broader term, whatever it means, I don't think Austin was exactly what I'd call libertarian either. He was a hunting redneck asshole at heart. Again. Pseudo-intellectual blabbing. No, authentic jingoism and homophobia isn't better than people chanting "Fight forever". And really, you can get as much from "Fight forever" in term of what today's crowds are and why they chant that kind of things than from old times offensive chants. But, ironically enough, you're throwing the moral judgement against them "evil smark self-referential posturing" current crowds while only showing love and appreciation for those good old racist crowds from years gone by. Say no more.

Loving that new "90's mad" gimmick about me, who's spent the last year reviewing and actually finding good shit in old TNA, who praised the hell out of every NXT PPV and who's maybe the biggest Lucha Underground fan on the board. But "that dated Takada guy" is my gimmick I guess. Anyway. The fact is, yes, Magnum, or any babyface "stealing a kiss" from a woman heel was and is even more uncomfortable, and the "she likes it!" line is pretty disgusting. Anyway. As far as Austin just being Crusher/Magnum 2.0, well, I know you're obsessed with the idea that nothing new is ever good and nothing good is ever new, but not really, Austin was different from any other big babyface, even rather heelish ones (which Crushed and Magnum never were). Austin was a beer drinking maniac who didn't give a shit about anyone but himself. Libertarian ? That's JBL, not Austin. Seriously now, what the fuck is so wrong about this ? Was it way better when good ol' wrestling fan from the Garden of Eden were chanting "USA !" at any "evil" foreign heels, because the good ol' US of A is da best country in the world and fuck any other culture, or classic "faggots !" chants at effeminate looking heels ? Im sorry, but a crowd having fun chanting Fandango's music theme or even lame and simpleton "You've stil got it !" is a million time less offensive and at least doens't make me ashame of being a pro-wrestling fan (which is not always easy). "The people should be tamed" is not even libertarian. It's rather fascist actually. (great post by Parties BTW)

The Naturals vs AMW vs XXX (TNA tag team title match - 09/01/04) It's really hard to have a good triple threat non-elimination match, much less a real good one. This was a success, thanks to three things : there was no overscripted cutesy spots; there was a storyline of James Storm being badly injured which allowed time for some actual classic tag team action with Naturals taking over for a while; the finish was excellent and played into both Storm's injury and the fact the Naturals are sneaky bastards who steal victories. Plus, the work from most guys, especially Daniels & AMW, was super solid, Primetime (yeah, Skipper is only going by Brian Lee's nickname now) delivering some cool action sequences and the Naturals being very good at being sneaky (like at one point Chase Stevens just throws a little petty kick from outside to James' injured back, which gets Harris into an offensive rage as he beats the crap out of him). This is coming after weeks of good TV matches between AMW & XXX and a pretty good AMW vs Naturals feud which culminated in a cage match. At this point, if AMW had worked anywhere but TNA, they would be pimped much more than they are. Really an underrated team that is better than a number of more "classic" WWF teams. TNA should deserve way more attention. This was a damn good triple threat match, which is a rarity in itself. And yeah, that finish was perfect.

I don't really want to have that mental picture in mind. Although that's probably what they were doing. And good for them too !

Agreed. Especially since he left Lucha Underground because he wasn't happy about not being in the main matches of Ultima Lucha. Made him look like a whining bitch who just packs it up when he doesn't get his way, straight to the place he was graced with racism and where he was used to do, well, like it's been said, shit.

What a totally useless comeback this guy had. He never looked better than in Lucha Underground anyway. He's a goner.

Bingo.

Pro-wrestling was better when you could cheer for sexual assault.

And really, ECW was as "relevant" as a pro-wrestling company could. But the Raven character showed up in 1995. Kobain had already killed himself. Grunge was dead. ECW used a Guns'n'Roses video for their yearly big event in the mid to late 90's. Gun's & Roses, people. And so on. Of course they were still way ahead of any other pro-wrestling company. Still waiting to a female wrestler coming out to bubblebum bass. Use Hannah Diamond before she's yesterday's news. She almost already is.

Yeah, pro-wrestling has always been a harvest for harnessing counter-culture.

"Shane sucks Johnny's dick". Philly. NWA. 1989. Oh, evil Heyman, you evil boy.

Yes. Don't let the fact in the way of your ridiculous reactionnary narrative. WCW was drawing flies in 93 before Bischoff came in. WCW beat WWF at its own game in 96 and jump-started arguably the biggest boom in wrestling history. Then you know what happened. Bischoff may be partly responsible for WCW's demise, but the idea that he gave Vince the monopoly is a plain lie. As far as the cult of southern wrestling as it was some kind of superior and pure essence of US pro-wrestling, well, it's also ridiculous. Plus, Dallas, Florida, Mid-South surely died because of Bischoff, much like Memphis became a indy because of Evil Uncle Eric. The Mid-Atlantic territory died the day it was sold to Turner. So, blame the Crokies I guess. Ah, the anti-Dave Meltzer point now. Gotta love it. Well, first, Jim Cornette and some other guy whose name eludes me invented the star rating. So there. And if we have to blame Meltzer for something, blame him for *us* then. Also, I love the idea that a crowd full of people actually having fun is a bad thing. Really, I'm annoyed as anyone by some of these chants, but the line has to be drawn at some point too. Pro-wrestling is entertainment. People going to a pro-wrestling show and having fun *with* or *against* the show are entitled to do so. What about those "smart marks" chanting "We want Flair!" at the GAB 90 ? Were they guilty of being corrupted by "Evil Meltzerism" already ? Of because they were chanting for Flair and shat on a crappy show, they were decent old-school fans still in the "Garden of Eden of kayfabe" ( ) ? And yes, kayfabe existed. Form the pro-wrestler's point of view. But let's not pretend the people ate it up without thinking. I never, ever "believed" in pro-wrestling, not for one second.

Watch some news reel footage from the 30's or 40's and you'll hear commentary pretty openly mocking wrestling and not even trying to treat it as a legitimate sport. My grandpa only needed to see one match back in the day to realize the whole thing was fake. The kayfabe situation is far more nuanced than it simple being "alive" then "dead," and the 70's-80's period where it was treated as a big deal is a relatively brief period in the overall history of US wrestling. I'd also argue the emphasis placed on protecting the business during that period is more indicative of the lowest-common-denominator crowd being pandered to than anything to do with the working style as stuff from that period is generally far more distanced from a real fight than stuff before or since. Word. If you listen to the french announcer Roger Couderc (who was awesome) during the Golden Years of French Catch in the 50's and 60's, there's a definite "wink-wink" element in the way he treats the whole thing, although never mocking pro-wrestling. My father used to sneak in with his friends to watch L'Ange Blanc and such at that time, and he never thought wrestling wasn't fake. The whole "kayfabe era when people believed it" never really existed. And the people who really thought it was real, well, it kinda speaks poorly about them and the way pro-wrestling were using their lack of culture and intelligence.

Ok. That would have been quite odd to be honest.

Not following weekly NXT, but Nakamura vs Joe, Asuka vs Bayley and a Revival tag match is already way more appealing to me than anything at SummerSlam. Is that Athena from TNA "fame" 14 years ago ? If so, with Aries and Roode, TNA seems to be the home of old TNA talent, which is both cool and ironic. Yeah, I'm watching that show.

I know. The evil "smart marks" wanted flippy-flops and the Russo/Bischoff/Heyman triad destroyed the "values" of old-school, and together they fucked it up because they all thought they were "smarter". Ok. You're channeling Corny ? (BTW, where is Vince McMahon responsability in all of this ? You realize he, and not Russo, had the final say on the Attitude Era. He put Stephy into creative. He's responsible for the dull monopoly, crazy TNA outsider aside, that is responsible for the shape of the current scene.)

You really want to watch SummerSlam now after that already overlong Rusev vs Reigns match on TV, don't you ? And to get that cool Demon entrance that you only get to see on majo… ok nevermind. SummerSlam doesn't look appealing one bit to me. Is there a NXT show the same week-end like last year (which was great) ?

Ok, seriously Parv, what are you smoking ? Loss of innocence ? Pro-wrestling as a carny trick to get "simple" (to be polite) people spend their money to watch fake fights.

I think he's undervaluing the fact that we're in 2016 and not in 1970 too. I love the idea that Eric Bischoff, Vince Russo and Paul Heyman of all people are responsible for guys like AJ Styles & Daniel Bryan (two objectively great, great wrestlers) becoming stars in the 10's. Eric "nWo Hollywood" Bischoff, Vince "David Arquette" Russo and Paul "Sandman & RVD" Heyman. Oh, the hilarity. And yes, Jim Ross & Jim Cornette (whom I have defended for way long before I just couldn't stand some of his shit) are acting like two old fucks lost in an era that doesn't exist. Lucha Underground rules, people.

I like creepy. And it seems like in 95/96, the WWF had its share of creepy characters and vignettes. Hell, I dunno why, but it seems like the vignettes from that timeframe resonnated with me in a peculiar way, in that I still hold them in a special place. Not all of them, but for instance I really liked the Fatu "Make a difference" stuff. Probably because I was a big Head Shrinker fan and a Fatu single push sounded nice to me. Plus I enjoyed the smooth ghetto-but-friendly vibe. But like I said, I like creepy. The Mankind stuff in 1996 was some of the most intriguing stuff I've ever seen to that point. Plus I had no idea who Cactus Jack was since I hadn't really seen any WCW or ECW at that point. So yeah, those promos, and the genius of the two different music themes. This was insane. I think people have forgotten how brillant this stuff was and only think of good-old (and annoying crowd panderer) Mick Foley these days, but the early Mankind shit was the best character introduced on WWE TV since, well, the Undertaker (expect much better all around). Creepiness was also a huge part of the appeal of the Goldust vignettes to me. Loved the music. Loved the super bizarre promos and Dustin's delivery, with the shots of Hollywood on green screens. Probably to this day, my all-time favourite vignettes. And yeah, I realize Vince Russo had quite a bit to do with them, so I gues that 0,01% of his contribution to the business was his peak and only streak of greatness. Then, let's say the debut left me a bit puzzled. The robe and wig was great, but Dustin's work wasn't very impressive at first. Really, Goldust didn't click on TV before Marlena came around. Then it was a winner. Finally some glamour back on WWF TV (which had been gone for years now). Another case of great vignette/not so great debut was Waylon Mercy. Those vignettes, to this day. Well, pretty much what I've said about the Goldust ones. Spivey was incredibly spooky and creepy in those. I don't think I had seen the Scorcese movie yet, so some stuff flew over my head. In the ring, it wasn't as impactful though, as Spivey was physically shot and it showed, although the piano music was wonderful and Spivey's "character work" was immediately great too, with truly disturbing facials and fake politeness. Funny, as I also remember the whole Body Donnas stuff well. Goofy but sexy thanks to Sunny and promising of good in-ring stuff thanks to Candido (whom I recognized from old WWF magazine talking about Smokey Mountains in 93). No idea why these years were the most stricking to me. I even loved the Jean Pierre Lafitte "old pirate tells story about his ancester" stuff Maybe because he was throwing a few words of french in those. Yeah, 95/96 was a good time for vignettes to me.