El-P

Well, indeed. That's why pro-wrestlers, and I mean pro as *professional*, usually think these guys are marks.

Well, yes. She even did the pregnant/miscarriage/not pregnant and PMS deal which she hated. It's a shame Sable got the star treatment when you had Sunny and Terri Runnels who were much better talent.

I'm sure cocked up traders in Wall Street reminisce their best coup as works of art too.

I have watched, enjoyed and talked about wrestling for like 20 years. Doesn't mean I have to consider it as an art. I love tons of stuff that didn't draw money. It was good, even great, craftmanship. But I'll never forget that the purpose of this entire goofy mess is to draw people and make money. That's why I enjoy stuff like Hogan's heel work more today than I did during my snobbish workrate period. Because it's fun to see something that clicks, even if it's not a ***** classic.

And that was derided as an infantile way to behave. Especially when Shawn Michaels was positionned to draw *because* he was working those "classic" matches. That was part of the deal with Shawn. That wasn't part of the deal with Goldy, Hogan or Abby for instance. But Shawn's drawing appeal was his ability to work so-called "classics", to the point of this becoming the main selling point of his character as "Mr. Wrestlemania". Again, it came down to drawing people and make money.

Well, Chris Benoit may not be the best exemple to point out the excesses of pro-wrestling (excess of physical abuse as well as steriods). But anyway. This match was an exception. Bret and Benoit paid hommage to Owen by having a traditionnal long pro-wrestling match on TV. Ok. That was nice. And then what ? Even as far as a match, I don't remember any specifical great statement that it made about life or death, nor even Bret's relationship with Owen. Bret worked a Bret match, with Bret spots. Okay. So ? Even if you want to say it's a kind of eulogy, how does it make it a piece of art ? It's not. A ceremony maybe. Okay. The Plum Mariko tribute match in Japan where Ozaki worked the match alone, with Plum's outfit in the corner (or outside the ring, I don't remember the details), taking a lot of abuse from her opponents as a way to "pay for her sin" I guess (although it may be too much or a judeo-christian extrapolation, and I have no idea if Ozaki is a christian either) could be seen as a kind of religious ceremony of sorts. But work of art ? I don't see it either.

And that's a problem ? Any news on how she is doing BTW ? I guess no news is good news in her case.

Because pro-wrestling has *never* been an artistic expression. Yes. That's a different argument from "is drawing power overrated in judging wrestlers". My answer thus far is very clearly a NO to the first question. 15 years ago I would have told you YES most probably, but I've changed my mind on the matter. Pro-wrestling is not an artistic expression. Maybe it could become one, but to me it's not at this point, and I doubt it could ever become one without becoming something else that is not pro-wrestling. Because of its roots basically, and the reason behind its whole existence to begin with: carnies drawing gullible people to give away their money (the Vader story on the Steve Austin podcast the other day about working the fans to pay for the babyface's fines during the match was hilarious and very telling of what's the business has always been about) And if what became of pro-wrestling today should be judged as "art", well, what I see on TV is extremely poor acting and totally idiotic stories plucked around highly choregraphed fake fights, which basically would put the whole thing at the level of a Jean Claude Van Damme movie, so basically the bottom of the barrel in term of art (be it movies or TV series). So it's not doing it a disservice to not consider pro-westling as art, really. Pro-wrestling is pro-wrestling, and it can be extremely great for what it is. No need to drop the big A word to ignore the reason why drawing power is indeed important when you want to look at the whole picture.

Working hard doesn't mean you're an artist. When I'm teaching French I don't strictly think about the (little) money I'm gonna earn afterward. I'm trying to do my job the best way possible, to be the most efficient, pleasing and even a little bit entertaining at times. Me seeking out opinions on my courses with my road ag… education manager and fellow work… teachers doesn't mean I'm an artist. It means I'm trying to improve my game and do my job right. And also to ensure my job and maybe get some better spots on the car… better assignments and get paid more if I can.

The match wasn't much of anything, basically Nash beat Luger's ass until his first offensive move which launched the nWo assault. Nash vs Giant's tease. Nicely done. Yeah, you gotta love that Nash was the one who got beat up by Sting here. Good closing segment again. When you think how shitty the main event scene got by 1998, it's surreal to see how well everything flowed at this point.

Ah, 911 squashed and chokeslamed by Giant in Philly. Totally forgot about that one.

Another strong closing segment. I have no idea why Savage is on crutches though, he sure was walking fine at the end of the PPV match.

Yes. Since the streak is over my first reaction would be to say "No value left", but since the Lesnar match and ending was so underwhelming and anti-climatic, yeah, a nice "Taker's last match" gimmick still has value I believe. Let him have a grand final disapearance act, Undertaker style. Yep. It's called personnality, which is a lot sexier than just stripping down to your underwear.

No. But pro-wrestling's only goal has always been to draw money. Period. You can make music, litterature, cinema, painting for the sake of it, for experimental researches, to express yourself, to protest against injustice, to stay alive, to heal other people. Pro-wrestling never had any other aim but to get money from its spectators. Pro-wrestling is basically psychological mass manipulation. The "pro-wrestling tell stories" argument has become amazingly overstated in recent years. The stories pro-wrestling tell are amazingly simplistic and limited, and aimed right at the reptilian brain. Bad guy = boo. Good guy = cheers. Bad guy cheats = me sad and angry. Good guy beats the shit out of bad guy = me happy. It's a low-brow form of entertainment born from the carnivals, it can be fascinating and great to watch, but no great wrestling match can be compared to a great work of litterature, cinema or music. Nor it shouldn't, because it's different. Now, if you want to compare the pro-wrestling industry with other entertainment industry which are using cinema, music and litterature to generate money, then it's another thing, but it's another point of comparison. And pretty often, most of the biggest money generators in the entertainment industry are shit pieces of "art".

Agreed. Pro-wrestling isn't music (hell, not even pop-music), pro-wrestling isn't litterature, pro-wrestling isn't cinema, pro-wrestling isn't painting. Pro-wrestling doesn't express anything. It's not an art. At best it's a craft industry, and some great workers are terrific craftsmen. And they don't necessarely draw the biggest gates, but they are useful dance partners or supporting members of the team. And sometimes it happens that the great craftsmen also are draws. But in the end, the goal of pro-wrestling is to draw money. Period. So yeah. That's why it can be really a dividing argument, because it can be no fun at all to talk about who drew more when you're only concerned about who entertains *you* the most. Hence threads about The Berzerker or Tim Horner that make this board pretty great. (and if there's no thread about Tim Horner, well, there should, damnit !)

Two rambling irrelevant old guys and a dumb jock who apparently forgot about the whole Horsemen deal the previous year. This isn't good, and it's the first time both Flair and Piper look like dinosaurs with no business working a hot angle on top. People can say whatever they want about Hogan, but infact he carried Piper at Starrcade 96 and at this point he was delivering the goods while Flair looked washed up and dated.

It's pretty notable how patient WCW was at the time, planting the seeds for an nWo split, building anticipation but not delivering yet. Good segment. The crowd is eating this stuff up.

I think Gene didn't even hear it. Sherri sure did though. Anyway, on live PPV no less. Just glorious. I can only imagine people dying backstage.

That bit always cracked me up ! Savage "I'm gonna have 22 women at the party ! Do you got a problem with that ?" Liz "No problem." Savage "Slim Jims for everybody !" Wait, WTF ?! Anyway, to me this is the best Savage match in eons, maybe since 1992. Not great, but still really good, and Savage's insane heeling (beating up Dave Penzer, threatening Buffer, slapping and piledriver the ref) were awesome. It's so great to have Savage as a heel again after years of formulaic babyface work. And Liz is such a bitch too, popping for Nash powerbombing Patrick. Interesting how DDP told the story of Savage wanting to take the Diamond Cutter at a house show and by getting a huge reaction from it deciding it would be the finish for the PPV. You feel DDP really wanted to have one last strong feud putting over someone new. DDP was the perfect foil. The post-match is great, and I like the fact Bischoff prevented Savage from hitting Kimberly a lot, as it really put over Savage as a batshit insane maniac that even the nWo wouldn't approve. Humiliating Kim is ok, but you still don't hit a woman. So yeah, probably the feud of the year in WCW.

The Viper bit is one of the all-time fakest, forced-looking wrestling routine I've ever seen. It's hilarious.

I was halfway expecting that one.

Can't wait to listen to Sulli, who's one of my favourite guy to listen to. The Tommy Young episode was excellent too, so that's 3 in a row for Corny.

You dont say. If I didn't know beforehand, I would have never recognized him. In a good way (expect the coughing). This week's show has Kevin Sullivan, so it should be good again.

Yes. Not to mention, better draw too.

I love how they basically shoot pressuring him to come back early from a severe neck injury. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.