Matt D

So uh, Bruce, you've got that Bockwinkel vs Wahoo match lying around right? Otherwise it's a crime against wrestling to tease us with promos.

I'm still annoyed no one would even engage my Mark Henry vs Randy Orton match write up. Disenfranchisement.

There is so much amazing stuff in there. We can hope, I think.

This is outside my comfort zone but Loss pointed it my way so I thought I'd give it a shot. I MAY be reading too much into this one, but I can't help it with post 96 Misawa, really. It all sort of becomes heightened reality. There are things that Misawa (and to a lesser extent the other pillars) can get away with in my mind. They are, after a certain point in time, ascended to some degree. They're on a different plane, a boss level encounter relative to a normal match. I actually have no idea how Hase is positioned at this point, but the sense I had was that he was also someone who had been through his share of wars, a grizzled veteran (mustache and all) who had the unenviable task of chopping down the tree that fought like a god. I love how he tried to go about it, constantly going to the arm, slowly, surely working his way up towards larger and larger attacks. At first, he does all he can to prevent Misawa from getting any distance. Misawa on the other hand, keeps trying to forearm his way through it, which is insane until you realize that Misawa is mythic and ultimately, if he is allowed to punch forward, to forearm his way, he will eventually power through any mountain you put in front of him. It's Hase's job to prevent that here. From Loss' initial discussions, I was expecting a lot more motion, maybe a few minutes of holds, but ultimately them moving in and out of them more. It took me a while to warm up to things, to really see how Hase was controlling the motion and flow of things with his holds, how Misawa was extremely giving in his struggle to get out. The constant shout with every new hold of "Give up" helped. It was ultimately Misawa's gradual weakening of his resistance that really made the match though. When he was able to hit bombs later in the match, they didn't pay off for him. Hase was prepared for them, ready to absorb big blows and immediately put the hold back on. When Misawa created distance and went to the top rope, ultimately, he was going to get caught. It was clear that Misawa wasn't going to regain control in any way but by forearming his way through the pain and through Hase's face. Unfortunately for Hase, it was also clear that he wasn't going to win with the holds alone. There was a sense after the powerbomb and the hold being restablished afterwards that Hase could have absolutely waited Misawa out and won on points. You can't beat Misawa on points, however, and that led to the finish. Misawa was weakened enough that Hase was able to launch four major bombs in a row. Normally that would feel like excess. No, it WAS excess. It was absolutely excess but within the context of this match and within the context of the narrative I have in my head about 2000 Misawa (scraggy "beard" and all), it worked. It felt like Hase's only pathway left yet also something he had potentially planned for, to strike again and again when Misawa was finally softened up. It couldn't work in the context of this battle, however. It wasn't a matter of Hase abandoning his gameplan. It was a matter of the gameplan only being able to take him so far. It had been all he could to do to get Misawa to this point, but it meant that the rest of Misawa's body wasn't broken down enough for this to put him away. When Hase went back to the well immediately, the forearms came hard and fast, Misawa finally punching his way through the darkness, fury unleashed, and that, unlike any of the bombs that Hase was ready for, was something that could not be answered.

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever? Can you do it for 1978? There's a fine line between some sort of universal resonance and nostalgia. We have people on this very board that could absolutely do it for 2006 or whatever, because that's their 1992. That said, part of the issue is that there's so much more of it now.

I was hoping one of my dudes would watch this so I wouldn't have to. I'm only allowed to watch Fujiwara matches when it comes to Japan, I think. (Just ignore the Hase vs Misawa match I'm about to watch).

History has shown that they were right, too. Think about how bad we are. Imagine the kids in 2030!

Someone should figure out how to get Austin a copy of the PR set.

The meta-story in my head is that as the tecnico fans left in droves after Mistico I left and after WWE sort of showed him (and therefore his peers) to be hugely unimportant in the grand scheme of things, the remaining rudo-favoring crowd turned on many of the younger remaining tecnicos. In that regard, the resentment that drove Rush and the other Ingobernables was the CMLL crowds creating their own monster, one who felt that they should be cheered and revered, that they deserved to be like their predecessors over the years, but that weren't. One of my favorite parts of their act was the teasing, in title matches, a couple of minutes of adhering to tradition cleanly (like you would still often get from other actual rudos), only to start a beatdown early in the primera.

Well, I did this. Now i have to catch up on Lucha Underground again though.

1.) Finish PR set (I've got one more match to watch on Disc 2). Write up all the matches on SC. 2.) Watch PWO2K matches that Loss suggests for me. Write them up here. 3.) Continue to watch NWAOnDemand matches and briefly write them up with Pete and co. on the thread. 4.) Redeem Big John Studd as a strong stooging heel who unfortunately came along in a period where people undervalued working and overvalued workrate. 5.) Maybe watch some Sami Callihan matches? Otherwise try to avoid indy wrestling for the sake of my sanity. 6.) Track down the IWE Bockwinkel footage and watch it, even if that means spending money on DVDs.

So WWE produced a show where Heyman told people to stop spending money on the product? Got it.

I may have been heaping false praise there (actually, Bix and Kris are very good at covering time when such things are being done). I don't necessarily mind someone, especially someone younger, being there to ask questions and for clarity. I agree that his biggest strength as a guest was to liken things back to 2016, of which a little goes a long way. All of that would have been okay to me if it wasn't for the gimmick and the fact that they were feeding it and getting way too much a kick out of it. I felt bad for Kris constantly giggling at it. Maybe they can have him back for an April Fools edition or something.

Grappers vs Conway Jr./Morton I was expecting an 85-86 #2 match on the card. This is not that. It's a full on 1982 #2 match on a card, and the only tag match to boot. 29 minutes. Two out of three falls. Plenty of shine. Lots of heat. The crowd being super into Morton's comebacks and Conway in general, shoulder work, heel chicanery from the Grapplers (though maybe not enough), at least one double team move a few years before its time, and a solid finish. I thought the first fall, taken on its own could have been as good as almost all of the mid-late 80s Hart Foundation (for instance) house show tag matches I've seen. The comeback in the second fall wasn't as dynamic as it could have been but it told the story of Morton/Conway taking control of the match by tagging in and out for the first time in ten minutes. I wish the finish had a masked confusion bit as well, but it was mainly to get Grappler #1's boot over. If nothing else, it's another great look at early Morton shining with another partner (and Conway was very good at what he did. I think we can safely say that now). Kai was really good at 22. That was a solid ten minute "listing out the birthdays" match with a lot of energy. She just threw herself into everything (like heel Jim Duggan from this period!). Speaking of 80s WWF tag teams, Glamour Girls might have been the best.

That's one thing about the undercard matches. They're all worth it for Boesch on commentary, especially if he's talking about someone you haven't heard him talk about a bunch like in the Lawler match.

Fighting my way through the last part of the WWE section at 2x speed. I won't knock Fray. He's quicker at googling things than you are and that's a skill on the show I guess. Certainly Kris was getting a kick out of the gimmick, but never, ever have someone with a gimmick on again, guys. Or if you really have to, at least just have it be Vandal Drummond as Lucky Pierre?

I'll rewatch next week and break down the narrative. I said I would anyway and life just got in the way.

I actually think one reason I'm higher on it than Phil/Eric relatively is that I watched both feeds at the same time, syncing them up and pausing at the few times one cuts. Some parts of the match are way better on one feed than the other and vice versa and the sound is much better on the cut version. It's worth the bit of extra effort.

I veer from my SC compadres and put the Trauma match higher too.

He was the biggest draw of 2016 though.

It all depends on how well the person crafts the argument and what evidence is used. I'd listen to any argument, ultimately, but it's about openness and receptiveness. Also a track record over time. If Loss wants to make that argument that goes farther than someone who goes around playing a character or what not. I think it's also about nuance of argument. Things aren't black and white. You can argue that Khali is better than Bret, but if you argue that Khali is better at Bret in every aspect and it's a black and white situation, I'm going to be less receptive.

What the hell is this card? It's the least CMLL-y card I've ever seen. It's awesome, though.

I liked Wahoo vs Gary Young too. Young made for a solid stooging heel tempting fate. Wahoo looked like a million bucks in dispatching him in the end. Pretty certain we have most of this card now. This was earlier in the night a helps to give a real sense of the difference between a second match on the card spot and a main event. Can't wait until we get our next Wahoo main event though.

I enjoyed the Guerreros a ton in 2014 (Also Averno/Mephisto/Ephesto) because they were straight up rudos in an age of Ingobernables. With the Guerreros, it's hard not to compare them back to previous versions, however. Euforia holds his own but it's just not the same as some of the guys who came before be it Dragon Rojo, Jr., Atlantis, a younger Bucanero, or even Olimpico in the mid-00s before he lost his mask and brought an element of unusual height and athleticism.

Rhyno getting a tag title run was pretty unexpected.