Matt D

I'm curious what I'd think about it now. I'll try to rewatch it next week.

This is what I wrote in 2013. I almost assure you I wouldn't feel the same way now (even if I might feel along the same lines): It's an awesome sign of how little confidence I had in my lucha views in 2013 just a few matches in. Now, I'll go and explain at length why I can't stand Volador, Jr.

I sure feel that way about Hansen/Brody vs Mil/Caras

We had a lot of fun, in the moment, with Shane vs Taker this year after 8 hours of Wrestlemania.

I watched a good chunk of Arison in the lead up to GWE and I loved the

The older I get the more I think this is true. I still love 80s wrestling and greatly prefer the method for story telling that was the norm during that error to what we see today. That said, I've argued for some time that there is vastly more quality wrestling available in the modern era than there was in the 80s or the 90s. On top of that I think the 80s benefits heavily from mythologizing certain things. A guy like Chris Hero probably has double the number of great matches on tape as someone like Ricky Steamboat, and his career in the ring is roughly as long, but a lot of people who default rank Steamer higher. I suspect this is due to years of being told that him and Flair had great matches that no will ever see, and the fact that the Steamboat's best stuff stands out more due to the way things were booked in his day (i.e. there was build to the big matches, and things weren't lost in the shuffle due to insane oversaturation). You would have to argue hard to make me think this is not first and foremost footage and then second drawing due to perceived match quality and not heat(and then far, far more the former), at least if we're comparing main eventers. More great wrestling is available. More wrestling is available period. More long, unclipped main event style matches are available by a massive, massive degree.

People have been conditioned to ask the wrong questions with lucha. I think I've been consistent in my view on that throughout the thread. Also, why do you think most AWA tags have a double heat?

And Steven might not be OK with that particular Person B as you described, but I am, so long as they're open to the idea that they may be missing something that others have learned to see.

Person A: I love lucha. Person B: I tried it. It sucks. Person A: I know it can be hard to get into. It took me a lot of matches, and not just the great ones, but so many people I trust enjoyed it that I knew I was personally missing something and I kept at it. It took me a while to understand the narratives and the themes and what was really going on. Person B: I don't have time for that. Other things are more enjoyable. No other sort of wrestling is like that. Person A: Ok, I understand. I'm busy too. Just don't say it sucks. Person B: No, lucha sucks. Not everyone in the thread is Person B obviously but a good many.

I'm biased, but I agree that the direct challenge is Bockwinkel with the new footage we've gotten to sure up a lot of the questions that previously persisted or the glimpses we couldn't be sure of.

You need to take that presumption people like wrestling ironically and to prove points and sincerely fuck off. Is it groupthink if I agree with GOTNW?

Plus Volador is terrible.

Shoot Vince Russo on sight?

The people pushing all or nothing mentalities here are doing no one else any favors, and that's on both sides.

If nothing else, you can learn more personally through your attempt to engage.

Ah, Christmas on a pro wrestling message board.

I had been really hesitant to watch enough Terry for GWE,but I did a deep dive on SC right before it and was really glad that I did.

Wrestling is like any other hobby. We get out what we put into it. I think most of us get a hell of a lot out of it.

Something I want to double back on is the tenor of the board since GWE. I was talking to Loss yesterday about PWO in general and one thing that I don't think has come through clearly in this thread really does need to be reiterated. Everyone is willing to help everyone else if asked. I think lucha is hard. It took me ~100 matches to feel like I was getting it and those weren't the top rated matches. They were much more of the week to week ones so I could start to deconstruct it and work out patterns. goc and others thinks it's not that hard at all. If it was hard for me though, it could well be hard for you. There are also a few different ways of looking at. Someone like Rob looks at lucha completely differently than I do. Even the people I blog with look at it differently. Eric likes different things than Phil sometimes. We all take a slightly different stab at it and get slightly different takeaways. So it can be hard, but I think everyone here who does like it would be willing to help out anyone having a hard time with it. If you watch a match and you don't get why it's lauded or what the narrative was or why they did X instead of Y or just want to see a take on the match, say something. I'm sure people will be glad to break it down and help out. Sometimes it is just a bad match. Sometimes it is just an empty spotfest or a total mess. Sometimes there's backstory you need to know. People HAVE been hugely helpful. I can't imagine getting into lucha without cubsfan's site, both the archives and the match finder. OJ did a lot of painstaking research for the lucha history lessons for the set. Loss and Chad have reviewed a ton of big matches from the 90s. People like Fredo and Kris would always answer a question if I had one. And the aforementioned Eric is a great guy who will always back up his opinions when asked. So if you're struggling and you want to really dive in, people will help. That's true with this community in general on any sort of wrestling and even after GWE I don't think that's changed. (If your issue is purely execution based, I'm sure people could point to specific matches that you might like, but that could be more of an issue)

I don't think this is the most productive road to go down, but there are certainly sites that report on NJPW and a dozen indies (like wrestlezone or what have you) that wouldn't even report on the CMLL anniversary shows. Yes, people like Kris wrote up reports but you sort of have to go to a lucha specific site to find them now. They don't come to you like other bits of wrestling news. It's not like Stardom (or even AJPW) is reported on those sites either though.

I have absolutely no time right now, but I want to delve more into execution vs symbolism at some point. Realism/Sport vs Myth/Tradition.

Fair enough.

There were some points within this thread itself where it might make some sense for you to comment, Dylan, for instance the more cultural issues, some of which you (along with Herodes) raised. It certainly doesn't do the board good if people don't follow up with engagement. If there are things to follow up upon (outside even what's been raised in this very thread, which I think is a lot even past the initial question), follow up. I've largely said my piece on those things. I'm not above engaging on the subject further, but I'm not sure where to begin, nor am I sure I care enough about the subject at this point to write on it at length. You don't care about the imperialism/hegemony arguments that were so haughtily thrashed and dismissed in this thread by certain people?

There were some points within this thread itself where it might make some sense for you to comment, Dylan, for instance the more cultural issues, some of which you (along with Herodes) raised. It certainly doesn't do the board good if people don't follow up with engagement. If there are things to follow up upon (outside even what's been raised in this very thread, which I think is a lot even past the initial question), follow up.

I couldn't rationalize putting him higher than I did in GWE (one before Hansen at 25), but if it was a list of my all time favorites, he'd be top five.