Matt D

Out of context (past reading Misawa's obit from Meltzer a few months ago), I thought this was a very good match. I mainly only watched it at this juncture because I want to see the match between them later in the year and I thought it'd be silly not to see this one too as it was so famous. I didn't really mind the ebb/flow style for most of the match because I thought it told the story of Jumbo recovering using his savvy and Misawa recovering using his grittiness and most of the transitions were pretty good and organic. I liked how both wrestlers paid for going back to the well (I don't think anyone successfully hit anything twice) and how some moves were foreshadowed and paid off later. I think my favorite moment of the whole thing was Misawa's body language after he slapped Jumbo back. You could just sort of see the energy seething off of him. Is this the match where the lore says that Jumbo kept trying to convince Baba not to do the pin job and Baba was cold and unyielding to the extreme? It really was a way to make yourself look good in making the person who is going to beat you look good too. I've seen a few matches where a veteran was going to give up a pinfall so they do everything possible to cut the nuts off of their opponent so it doesn't actually mean anything. This was anything but that. That said, the finish was a little underwhelming. I thought the stretch was good, especially the German attempt into the roll up segment. I really liked that. The problem was that I don't think Misawa really had Jumbo down for the one count of the finish. At first watch, I thought it was only a two until I heard the bell. I went back and looked at it again and he was still scrambling for position as the ref was counting. I see that no one else had a problem with that but it sort of took me out of the moment. My only other criticism and this is both a pro and a con is that the two counters at the end, the kick off on the backdrop driver and the reverse headbutt to counter the clothesline and hurt Jumbo were a little cute. I like that Misawa was able to build in relatively complex spots like that (though I know now that the headbutt was one of his normal spots in this period; I just learned that) but I wonder if they just had one or the other, things might have been a little more straightforward and primal. It wasn't the moment for both bits of cutesyness, maybe? (I think this bit is unfair actually, nevermind). I liked the match quite a bit though.

Is there a pairing for Bryan more exciting than Harper in ring?

Probably best not to generalize on that. I'm glad people have something they can enjoy and identify with, especially after the week WWE and TNA had.

I bet CMLL is happy to have a few week vacation from Niebla.

I'm pretty unenthused by these cards too. We might get some wacky CMLL cards with the roster away though, right?

I feel like they taped ahead pretty far for Prime most of the time. I vaguely remember an episode post Uncensored with a Dustin squash and some awkward announcing.

Dylan would help him write it. Let's make it happen.

I think a Starr book would be interesting, if only because he worked so many territories, but is really an unknown name to a lot of the fanbase. Some of that is because the territories he worked were sort of the under the radar ones to modern US fans, PR and Portland and Maritimes. He played wildly different roles too so it'd be fairly interesting.

I kind of want to see Rollins bump around for Brock, I guess.

I sort of see Rollins eating the pin, letting Cena win the belt without Brock losing and then Rollins cashing in post match after Brock destroys Cena. You know, the least interesting possibility and the one that makes everyone look worse than they did coming in. I'm not sure why you guys are seeing more here.

I know nothing about the context of this match. Therefore, I'm doing that thing that I do where I glue pieces together and try to make sense of them. Frankly, I thought this was a wonderful match. Most of the All Japan I've seen is from a few years later and has way more in the way of excess with kick outs and bombs and multiple iterations of big moves. Here we just had Jumbo's back drop driver twice and the first time was sort of a stumbling one off the top rope and the kick out really played into what I am guessing was the development of Kobashi into the "fighting spirit" monster that he would become. Basically, it took all the stuff I liked from those later matches (like the carefully planted call backs) and didn't suck it down with all the stuff I didn't like. Plus, because it was a six man, there was more room for guys believably recovering and what not, and I really bought into the development of Kobashi here, or at least what i saw in my head as that. I'm not going to list all the call backs here, but they were all cool (the coolest being Kobashi dropping the crab to hit the clothesline and then Jumbo dropping the powerbomb to hit the forearm/elbow). I want to talk about Taue. To me this thing was about Kobashi, sure, and it was about Jumbo and Misawa getting to hit each other, but mainly it was about Taue being a colossal screw up that just wanted to please his partners. Follow me here: He was desperate to be the one to start the match, convincing his partners to let him start and then immediately the aggressor. He was too aggressive though, kicked Kawada on the apron and then ran right into Kobashi's arm drag. Then Kawada came in and kicked the hell out of his leg, then, when he came back, his head. Finally as Misawa is in pounding on him, Jumbo's had enough of this and tagged himself in. Later on, Taue lost control of Kobashi (for the first time) but was able to desperately reverse Kawada's bodyslam on the outside. They work on his back a bit but eventually he messed up again, put his head down on a back body drop and Misawa made it in (Taue ended up stomped a million times by Kawada on the apron AND suplexed on the outside in revenge). Eventually Taue got a hail mary DDT reversal out of nowhere and his partners bloody up Kobashi on the outside. This lasted a while and was brutal. Eventually, Taue, in again, hit a big facebuster and samoan drop but then lost Kobashi (for the second time, and this time in am much worse spot) on a suplex attempt. This brought Kawada in and Taue found himself driven back into the corner with kicks. So now he'd lost the advantage three times and was getting beaten to hell. Embarrassed, humiliated, shamed. He came out of the corner with this amazing flurry of rapid fire palm strikes to drive Kawada back and it's awesome. He still was on the worse end of this, though, and Jumbo had to tag himself back in shortly thereafter, but it was a great moment of desperate grief and frustration. Misawa tagged himself in a minute or two later and it was on. This ended with Misawa pressing the advantage on Jumbo on the floor and Taue awkwardly diving through the ropes onto Misawa, which I completely saw as him trying to make up to Jumbo for his multiple failures in the match. Misawa got him back into the ring though and after one last, futile palm rush (that Misawa cuts through with a death elbow) and a desperation clothesline and powerslam on Kobashi that at least let him escape from the ring and tag Fuchi, Taue's pretty much done for the match. It was a great ride for him though, poor bastard. I await someone who actually knows something about any of this to come in and tell me I'm crazy now. I'd take this thing over any of the later AJPW matches I've seen, I think, though. Those might have had higher highs but they were also messes of excess for the most part. This felt just right.

I'm going to have more to say about this, but i do think it sort of sums it up. Flair didn't change. The world changed around him. At every point of this match, every single point up until maybe the last three minutes, you get the feeling that Ric Flair is not doing "the exact right thing" which is a feeling I get from a lot of wrestlers today, but instead, that he's doing "exactly what Ric Flair would do." The begging, the cheating, the desperation in doing anything he can to hold on to the advantage, because it's so hard to get and it's so hard to keep and Flair had to almost be perfect to keep it. The match is so tangible and believable and it's all on instinct. The armwork failed because it was just something to contain Luger. It wasn't actually damaging him all that much; it was just slowing him down. The legwork on Flair failed because Luger wasn't good enough as a kayfabe pro wrestler to utilize it well. They both fill the logical gaps through instinct, which is something I love, but don't always like, if that makes sense. My biggest problems with the match were Flair going into the flip the second time late in the match (That felt off and contrived in a match where almost nothing he did felt off.) and the finish. I haven't looked at the timing of this but it's a damn shame they didn't have Windham or Sid to unleash here. The ref was counting Luger even as he was watching the Andersons basically hang on to his limbs. That was ridiculous. It would have been so much more effective to have someone that you could cycle Luger off onto using Sting's crutch and Luger just eating the pin. After that match it would have hurt him less than what the actual finish was. This is one of the cases where you HAVE to separate the match from the wrestlers. I count that finish against the match but I don't count it against the wrestlers. The work isn't the match.

This was great. I love how each guy has his own themed girl with him. The beatdown was great and bloody, full of wound work and biting and all that good stuff. The DDT made for a good hope spot but it was too little and too late. They kept it going into the segunda too with Faraon slowly coming back but ultimately too damaged relative to Morgan so he kept getting cut off until he finally made it with a lucky move. And that tercera was just beautiful hate-filled hair match lucha: Morgan starts out stronger, still, even recovering from getting hit with a dive but Faraon finally made it the rest of the way back. Once he's in control, he crashed over him stepping on him on the way across and went for the splash. The foul false finish worked really well because it looked so organic, almost inadvertent and it happened right when Faraon really finally had the advantage. I don't love the stoppage, if only because I thought Faraon was a bloody mess too, so it was almost better to throw the thing out and do it again the following week with the hair AND a money purse on the line or something like that. It didn't feel to me like Morgan was THAT much bloodier than Faraon, really. Very fun brawl though.

I know, at the time, the conventional wisdom (if you want to call DEAN'S workrate reports conventional wisdom) was that Bagwell had gotten pretty good from his time over in NJPW and the injury in the Steiner match was actually a hit to the roster. I haven't rewatched that stuff in ages and stylistic opinions have changed since 97 but I do think he's fine as Scorpio's FIP in 1993 WCW.

You can hear Austin's paranoia sometimes in his podcast actually. He has really strong feelings about booking that come through sometimes.

This is by far the hardest resolution anyone on this board has. How the fuck does Johnny Sorrow get more positive?

Would it be safe to say that there's a lot more noise to filter through out there now? Just because there's so much more in general? I will say, and this is anecdotal, that there seems to be a lot more of C+Ping in general. You'll get the same article slightly rephrased on a number of sites or even when you look at, let's say the Brockton Enterprise and the Boston Globe in MA. I remember about ten years ago my family subscribed to both and the overlap was jarring.

One thing I'm always curious about when the HHH = bloated matches narrative comes up - how do people feel about his work in 2000? Specifically the Foley, Jericho, Rock and Benoit matches. Very rarely come across criticism of his performances therein. Had he yet to consolidate power, in order to lay out matches the way he later preferred? Over at DVDVR we looked at a few of his matches at least. I wrote up some reviews that wouldn't make a ton of sense out of the context of the thread but I found that the big Jericho match and the 3 Stages of Hell match with Austin, at least, were considerably bloated and could have been good matches with some restraint.

As did Bryan working two matches, but I do think that if Hunter wanted, he could have put his foot down and forced five or ten more minutes into the match. As someone who's made so many bad creative decisions about his matches over the years, he should get credit for making a picture perfect one there, especially because the extenuating circumstances forced it. He could have thrown off the whole card if he wasn't responsible for it.

On the one hand, that's fair, but I think what made it so good was the restraint that Triple H showed relative to other matches that he's had. He was able to make it still seem like a big deal but without the bloat that brings down almost all of his big matches. That was on him, not Bryan. He probably could've had two dozen matches in his career there were just as good if he'd only shown that restraint before.

I could be off on this, but I do think a huge issue with CMLL is that a lot of the traditional tecnico fans who'd come in with the huge signs and the drums and what not have been alienated and just don't show up anymore. It really affects the feel of the crowds.

I think Triple H had his single best big match ever in 2014. Maybe even his top two.

I won't go quite as far but I will say that 2013 was probably the best year for offering us consistently good TV matches that WWE ever had.

I haven't seen much Liger. I'm not sure I've seen any Sano. This was great. I really don't think Liger went full speed on offense either. Maybe that first comeback burst that ended with him diving all the way over the rail, but then he sold it big. Later on every time he hit something there was that sense of desperation, like Loss mentioned earlier.I'm the first guy to get frustrated at shrugged off selling and it didn't bother me here. I don't have time to really write it up now but I do have some notes, likes/dislikes. The main point, which isn't really in the notes is that it was just an awesome beatdown, blood and mask ripping and bombs, just real nastiness with the best possible use of "fighting spirit." -I like how definitive the early transition moves are. A pile driver on the floor SHOULD turn the match around like this. -I like that it's not back and forth at all but just a thorough beating. -I like that Liger gets full on comebacks instead of hope spots. The match really breathes -I wish that Sano might have gone for the pin a little less and done damage for the sake of it a little more because Sano has SUCH big moves. More rope escapes, like at the Tiger at the end. -On the other hand I'm glad Liger hit a bunch of stuff on Sano before winning. since it was so one sided. He had to earn the win. -You feel so bad for Liger when he goes flying over the top towards the end. -I like the callbacks. two superplexes (second with a reversal). Both guys hitting quebadoras. Germans. Tombstones. -There are some spots that look sloppy and flubbed but given the selling they feel weirdly organic and work in the context of the match, as if Liger simply couldn't hit what he was trying to do because he was so beat up and thus they go around in a different circle after the attempt. Maybe I'm being too kind there. -Not perfect but it's a pretty glorious match.

What's to be done with Bryan? I sort of liked the broad story they were presenting here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb51LfCR-2k I'd love to see a match where Bryan targets a body part.