Matt D

The only podcast I am ever doing with Johnny is a high-depth examination of Tanahashi.

I thought he was kidding about stuff. Man the internet makes reading tone tough.

There's also a perception issue. The official story of the WWF in the 80s is that the tag division was not just a big deal but a golden age. It was also probably something represented in the sheets with the Bulldogs and the Harts lionized. When some of our community went back and actually watched the matches a few years ago that didn't hold up. I know when I started naturally going through Demolition matches in a chronological watching, I was surprised because a lot of the common complaints of the era/style (From our community) wasn't true for them so ultimately it becomes really meta.

One of those people is not like the other. One of those people just does not belong. I am honored but I am a ways away from becoming that level of wrestling analyst. After calling me out a couple times, Matt, about the Colossal Connection matches, they are the best babyface Demolition matches because Eadie respects Andre enough to sell for him like a face in peril. Still no face Demolition matches come close to how good heel Demolition could be against the Rockers, Bulldogs and Hart Foundation. Do you agree that heel Demolition >>> babyface Demolition? To me it is not even close, but I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Probably best if you put it in the Demolition thread. I had a few minutes I didn't expect to have so let me take a whack at this. I think there was a general consistency with Eadie and Darsow (Darsow led by Eadie) in that they gave their opponents exactly how much their opponents should have had most of the time. This, in general, defuses the heel-in-peril dynamic. A Killer Bee's match full of early match control armwork means a hell of a lot more if their opponents are constantly fighting back instead of just laying there. And it varied match by match. As heels they had this great rapid selling keeping up for the Rockers and against the Hart Foundation at Summerslam 88 actually begged off because it made sense given the Harts' placement and the stage they were on. This holds true for the most part as faces. Did they eat up the Brainbusters? Yeah, but that was the story. The first SNME match was all about the 'Busters being overwhelmed but expert cheaters and the Demos getting more and more frustrated until they made a mistake. That mistake led to the second match where ultimately the Brainbusters were positioned to get the upper hand on them, the MSG revenge match, and then finally the squash that ended it all. Would have those first two matches been better if they were more even? Maybe, but that's not the story they were telling, and whoever decided that they should tell that story (and on SNME you can never really tell) wanted it, and I think they delivered, to the point that if they gave the Busters more, then maybe they wouldn't have told it as well. On the other hand, they gave the Twin Towers a ton of offense. I know you didn't like those matches and sort of discounted the Towers and I think that's a shame. They did well at FIP there. A lot of the time they relied on heel miscommunication to win those and easily my favorite thing about face Demolition was Ax being unleashed after the hot tag and how much fire he brought to slamming them and what not. It's all about versatility in the end. I really thought that they played different roles to different matches with different opponents as heels but as faces as well. Let me put it this way. I think they had more interesting matches as faces than you give them credit for. The first SNME Brainbusters match is more of a worked angle than a match. So I think they had objectively better matches as heels, yes, but they had were just as effective in achieving their (still more interesting than you'd think on paper) goals as faces.

One of those people is not like the other. One of those people just does not belong. I am honored but I am a ways away from becoming that level of wrestling analyst. After calling me out a couple times, Matt, about the Colossal Connection matches, they are the best babyface Demolition matches because Eadie respects Andre enough to sell for him like a face in peril. Still no face Demolition matches come close to how good heel Demolition could be against the Rockers, Bulldogs and Hart Foundation. Do you agree that heel Demolition >>> babyface Demolition? To me it is not even close, but I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Probably best if you put it in the Demolition thread. I'll shoot a reply up to this in the Demo thread as soon as I can. Holiday stuff is vaguely disruptive at this point.

Man, Demolition was great, death camps aside. Every damn move made sense. Bill Eadie was a master craftsman. EDIT: Personally, I'm okay with anyone thinking anything but I do appreciate it when people meet me halfway in understanding WHY I feel like I do about what I do. Not agree, but at least understand. It's what I try to do for them. DOUBLE Edit, post Parv's reply: Just to make things clear, I think that almost everyone here, to a person, at least tries to do that back with me, at least most of the time (sometimes everyone gets a little heated, sure) and it is appreciated thoroughly.

One thing I do love about this place is the sort of macro view that one can only get by watching ALL the footage.

I'm curious what the buyrate will be here. Between the weak card and the football game (And they never seem too aware of context), I could sort of see it being under one of the Bryan-helmed, Cenaless PPVs. What would that tell them?

Basically they panicked due to ratings and the fact they need strong numbers right now for the TV contract renewal/network launch and are putting together the only thing they think that will actually draw, right? That's the narrative I'd pick up from all the notes around here lately at least.

Survivor Series card looks like it'll be full of good matches to me. A little boring, but past the divas match, everything should be good and that should at least be quick and full of pinfalls.

It does. It's basically a heel hope spot (which is then cut off, though the idea of cut off is really implicit in the hope spot) which happens during a shine or a more extended heel-in-peril segment. Another good example which is full of them is the first fall of the Portland 2/3 Falls Race vs Martel match from the very beginning of 1980.

When writing about matches and breaking down common elements, we, as a community, have a lot of terms that are useful. Face-in-peril, heat segment, hot tag, shine, transition, cut-off, etc. These are all various narrative tools that we've found used in multiple matches, enough so that we decided to use terms to classify them. They help us understand what we're watching and portray it to others. One of these is "hope spot," namely being when a babyface who is getting dominated by a heel (either in a standard heat segment or a face-in-peril scenario) fights back to the point where the crowd experiences hope that he'll be able to gain the advantage or make the tag. This ultimately ends in a cutoff spot where the heel stops the babyface and recovers the advantage. This is generally done multiple times to crank up the heat and make the babyface's final, successful comeback resonate more when it finally happens. The timing, number, and ingenuity of hope spots has a lot to do with how successful a match will be as, generally, the heat segment is the longest part of the match. My question is this. What should we call the same functional idea as hope spots in a match that has a section where a face is dominating, usually by locking on a long, generally controlling or limb weakening hold? While it's usually structured with the hold as a base and the heel trying to escape and then getting cut off and put back into it, I don't think a hope spot is accurate. It's not about giving the fans hope. It's instead about showing the dominance of the babyface through the cut offs or countering the vulnerability of the heel by letting him make some strides in getting out. It's also, sometimes, just a way to kill time with them basically saying "this is the match." It can be comedic or be a way to rise the heel's ire and frustrate him to the point of brutality when he finally takes back over. I'm just crowdsourcing for a better way of saying "hope spot" in this heel-in-peril comeback/cutoff scenario. "Transition tease" or "escape attempt" are the best I can come up with. The first is obtuse and the second isn't entirely accurate as it doesn't necessarily have to be a hold-based scenario. The face could just be beating on the heel in other ways.

You know I did see this Billy Robinson vs Nick Bockwinkel match tonight.

Corrected. Ha, very good. I always sort of see the two of you as a tag team.

Bock/Lanza vs Funks - AJPW - 12/5/78 I don't have time to really write this up but I liked it a ton. It was best when Terry and/or Bockwinkel was in there but the other two did their part as well. The basic story was that the Funks outwrestled Bockwinkel and Lanza but Bock and Lanza were able to use heel tactics and smart tag wrestling. The best stuff was the early armwork, the great transition where Lanza took over on Funk by tossing him out (huge bump) and slapping the claw on the outside and the FIP segment that followed and the return of the claw at the end of the match, which had some real drama. Bockwinkel and Funk especially worked the holds so well and Lanza looked positively deranged with his balding crazy hair when he was using the claw. Bockwinkel vs Robinson - AJPW - 11.12.1980 You crazy folks are really telling me there are 14 80s AJPW matches better than this? Really? Holy crap. The sense of struggle in this match is amazing. In the beginning you see one of the best worked headscissors ever followed by one of the best worked headlocks ever and it just goes up from there. There are so many moments in this thing, the european uppercut followed by Bockwinkel's return punch, Bock trying to get out of the headlock but getting taken back down and in a moment later again and again, the sheer desperation once he goes to the leg the first time and starts to get some traction only to be unable to keep it up (and the way he RUSHED back to the leg after the ref broke it was just brilliant as ever Bock), again the sense of struggle in things like the piledriver reversal and even a whip into the corner. They don't half ass anything and the attention to detail adds so much emotion. When Robinson's leg finally goes out on the second Robinson backbreaker, and then Robinson after the figure four fighting on one leg with his own sense of desperation. The finish is downright beautiful with the two of them punching away as the time goes out, both half dead from the war, and ending up collapsed against each other in the ropes, even though they'd just been trying to kill each other. They didn't want to be there in that sort of kindred embrace but their bodies gave them no choice. It makes the shake of the hand that follows even more poignant.

I think the match quality is extremely high but there's also a higher level of difficulty from a novice. You're dropped into these not knowing who you're looking at a lot and also the matches tend to go longer. Well worth it though, and the DVDVR notes and a lot of the podcasts help. I still wish someone would write a match by match cheat sheet.

It kind of feels like that's almost been done already though. Especially if you believe the reports that they are blaming weak buyrates in the last 3 PPVs on Daniel Bryan and not Randy Orton. Bryan hasn't had nearly as much of a chance to prove himself as a draw as Randy. Randy however has shown he ISN'T a draw, especially when they tried to move him to Smackdown and make him the "ace" and house show ticket sales dropped off big time. Obviously that was Christian's fault.

In my rush to get out of the office I left disc 5 at work and I won't be back there for a week. I was JUST to the Chicana vs Perro match too and was very eager to watch it.

I've gone over my complex booking plan using Eddie Gilbert as a smokescreen to put the belt on Barry.

I think Cody's actively better at switching his stuff up than he was even three months ago. Really, where the lack of Goldust was felt the most to me was in the six man with Rey and the Usos.

If I wanted to spend $15 a month on wrestling, I could think of better ways to do so.

It's a really simple hold but there's something almost elegant about the top wristlock.

Unlike the Piper and Martel series, I do think there's been improvements from match to match with Youngblood, yeah. Buddy Rose vs Matt Borne - 2/3 Falls - June 6, 1981 Apparently Buddy opened up Tony borne last week. Tony Borne is with Matt and Buddy won't start the match until he leaves (which is of course dickish and ironic considering how Buddy always has the army with him). Buddy heads to the back. Tony follows him and basically chases him back in, right into Matt's hands. VQ is tough here, but he beats Buddy a bit until Buddy manages to disengage. Borne's in charge here, tossing Buddy out, tossing him back in, hitting a knee drop, slamming, stomping, etc. Bonnema goes on about a new Portland newsletter and I wonder if anyone has those. It's a bit of a distraction from Borne I THINK biting Buddy in the corner out of nowhere. Buddy checks for blood and Borne hones in with some elbows, and after a back body drop some stomps and nice looking punches. There's definitely the impression he's trying to open Buddy up. Borne sure has a goofy big splash with his legs spread wide. After a two count he goes right back to the forehead. He goes for an airplane spin off the ropes but Buddy slips out to hit the Robinson backbreaker in a really beautiful spot, but it's basically the only damage he did to Borne so far this match and he kicks out. Buddy is pissed and hits a HUGE back body drop. Borne really flies. Buddy hits an atomic drop (goofy sell by Borne) and another Robinson backbreaker and this time it's a three count. Still, Borne kicking out of that even once was a big deal. Bonnema puts him over between falls, likening him to Jimmy Snuka as someone who would go far. Hey, apparently Roddy's coming back in for a few spots with the US title. I wonder if any of that made the TV show. Borne starts the second fall going for a bodyslam but his back's too hurt and he can't manage it. Buddy chucks him across the ring and starts to really hone in on the back. This is his bread and butter and Borne sells it well. Buddy still does little things to put over Borne, like jumping big when Borne kicks out on him. He's dogged on the back however, including one of the best Irish Whips into the corner I've seen in forever and a beautiful high vertical suplex. Buddy goes for a second suplex, but Borne's slowly started his comeback and Borne reverses, hitting one of his own. He's still hurt though. Buddy gets up first, goes for the Robinson backbreaker again but Borne's out over the top. He hits a huge atomic drop. Buddy begs off. Borne is selling big, hanging on to the ropes, but he makes it across the ring and starts unloading on Buddy, including a back body drop and some typical babyface mauling. He goes for the slam again, hitting it this time and following it with a kneedrop. Buddy reverses a whip and goes for another Robinson backbreaker but Borne floats over and hits the airplane spin for the quick pin. Nice short momentum change fall. I like how they played on the first fall. Oh, apparently Velvet Mcintyre and Princess Victoria will be coming in soon too. Women, midgets and Andre. So it goes. Buddy gripes more over the break, this time about Borne pulling his tights to get out of the backbreaker. Buddy starts the third fall slinking out to stall as we get another lecture about not leaving your seat or throwing things. Buddy gets a takedown and then immediately pulls the trunks to an extreme level to try to get a pin. This goes on for a while until the fans were pissed off and Sandy Barr catches him and breaks the pin. Buddy rolls back out to reset. Buddy starts on the arm, really working a standing armbar. This is a perfectly fine shift after going for the backbreaker too many times cost him. Fans are very much behind Borne here. Buddy keeps trying to take him over with a top wristlock but they have Borne bridge back up. Borne finally reverses it and stomps Buddy in the face. Well worked little exchange that moved the crowd. Buddy checks his nose and then comes back with a big bite. Buddy's pissed off now and smells blood. He starts to dismantle Borne with bites and kicks and then a nasty neck wrench. Buddy doesn't do a ton with it, but he doesn't have to. Borne sells it well and it just looks disquieting. Borne starts to fight up. Buddy comes back with a bite and Borne, having had enough, bites right back. Finally, Buddy ends up bleeding which has a real sense of culmination here. Borne hones on in with elbows, punches, and more bites, as well as a nice dropkick. Borne tosses him out and follows right behind. He slams Buddy's face right into a front row chair. Borne tosses him back in and sits behind him, just elbowing away at the wound. Borne lifts up a knee to the face and Buddy ends up tied up in the ropes. Barr is trying to stop this so he can look at Buddy's cup. Borne charges in but thanks to the distraction, Buddy (still tied up in the ropes) gets his feet up at the last second. Both guys are selling the war weariness well. Buddy is a crimson mess. He has the advantage but he can't press it, having to rear back and sell after each shot. Borne starts to fight back again, finally locking on the airplane spin again but Rip Oliver comes out to break it up for the DQ. Tony Borne rushes out to even the odds to set up a tag match for the following week. Another really good match. There are some things that Borne did that I didn't entirely agree with, not even that he did them, but when he did them. For the most part though, this was a really great coming of age showing for Borne. Excellent stuff.

As for Taft, i would be amazed if 10% knew the bathtub story. Was it mentioned on Friends maybe? I bet they all know who Hulk Hogan is though. Sure. People are idiots. I think that's the note we should tie this thing off with. All 16 pages of it.