Matt D

I guess I look at a match on a lot of levels if I'm really trying to break it down. Part of that is "did it work," or "did it accomplish what it set out to do." I've seen tv matches that were there to tell a story that set up a house show or to set up an angle or to get over a specific wrestler in a specific way. Did the crowd buy what they were selling. It's important. I don't think it's as important as "Did it work for me?" though, because this is business, yes, but it's also art and art is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's part of the context of understanding a match. Now, then, sometimes you can get swept away with a crowd and other times you can be frustrated with a crowd and it becomes a noticeable annoyance. This is especially true the first time you see a match I think. I think ultimately, for me, it's more of a performance thing. If they're moving the crowd, I want to figure out how and why and whether it's something they're actively doing or some passive wave they're riding. If they're not moving the crowd, why is that? Is it something that I think they're doing wrong or are they just in a toxic environment? Moreover, if they are in a toxic environment and they're moving the crowd, is it because of something extraordinary that they're doing? Guys like Goldust are able to get a reaction out of a modern crowd that they almost shouldn't be able to. I think it's more important to me to see how a wrestler is working a crowd than to get swept up in the cheers, is what I'm trying to say. "Big Match Feel" is one of the least important things in wrestling to me. I like "Good Match Feel" better.

And here I was excited because I just found it here of all places: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=2741132 Yep, you guys managed a whole two pages of discussion in 2005. Charles' "Should get in/should not get in" list is pretty interesting though. Thanks, Bix.

I honestly think Warrior doesn't need a ring general. He just needs to follow an agent's instructions.

Everyone (see: Will) should check out Harper vs Ohno from NXT this week: http://www.hulu.com/watch/555326#i0,p177,d0. It's easily Harper's best showcase with some great punches (One fun thing about NXT is that the camera guys/editors don't QUITE have the "oh god we have to cut away from the punch" timing down yet, so you usually see the punch and they cut the next second), these awesome dickish instep kicks, a surprisingly great cravat, and tons of little things (ring positioning into the corner to cut off a hope spot, moving Ohno around the ring with his head, just lingering with his foot on the top rope after a big boot to the outside transition). I don't love Ohno's late match selling but that might be because I've been watching too much Sangre Chicana lately. To me, it's much more of a Harper showcase but it's really well worth watching. He had the Punk match on Monday and I think a Bryan match for tomorrow too so it's sort of his week.

Is that online somewhere? A quick google search gave me a dead link. I think I found the Ray Mendoza one though.

So we don't have every episode of Portland TV, right? What we have is great. What we're missing is this: 3/8/80 Portland - Handicap Match - Andre The Giant & Roddy Piper beat Buddy Rose & Ron Bass & Butch Miller & Luke Williams God dammit.

From what I remember from shoots and what not, both guys thought they'd be getting runs with Hogan or Warrior when they broke up and it just never happened.

Can we have one focused on the specific wrestling fetishes housed within PWO? Apparently we all REALLY like Nicho el Millonari or something. I always liked Psicosis mask.

Rene Goulet, circa 1984.

Warlord was really great in Survivor Series 90 vs Jannetty. At least he had moments. Crush isn't someone I can defend much but I will say that when the crowd was really into him in late 92, it was fun to watch the reaction he got at least.

Oh god, you guys going through the 4 way elimination is the best. It's like listening to Abbot and Costello.

On second thought, I just want Bockwinkel and Rose and no one else. It'll be more like a cabinet of fame.

I'm actually pretty cool with the Goodhelmet hall. I might want Satanico instead of Dandy but that's just because I haven't hit the back end of the 80s set yet.

I like him as fired up babyface, actually. And Big Show is one of the best wrestlers on the roster and has been for the last many, many years.

There's the insane sprint with Bock. I personally think the match with Scott LeDoux is a great little carry job with the stalling/pacing really paying off. The Regal series of course. Charles and Will would be happy to go on about that. I like a lot of the Enforcers stuff from 91 and his brief babyface run from 92.

No way. Larry's had way too many great performances and matches. He knew exactly what he was doing. Now, Bulldog Bob Brown...

I'm not entirely sure. From what I understand, Piper claims that George Scott who was booking mid-atlantic invited him to the Carolinas. Vince Sr. called Martel after seeing him a while before from his Atlanta work, so with those two it was just new opportunities. I have no idea why the Sheepherders left or where they went next, especially leaving right after Boyd came in. It started to become a running joke, Owen getting more and more frustrated as loser leaves town matches kept happening.

Army (Rose/Oliver/Cortez/Destroyer) vs Youngblood/Lightfoot/Buzz Sawyer/Boyd - Last fall of a 2/3 Falls match - Nov 22, 1980 My mysterious source (a really easy to find youtube channel) only seems to have the clipped third fall up which is a bummer as I was really looking forward to this. We work with what we have though. They're using a wide camera angle to get all of the guys so it's a little hard to see what's going on. They start with Buddy working on Lightfoot. Destroyer in and Lightfoot fights back but gets cut off. Rose takes him to the heel corner, goes for a turnbuckle treatment, but he slams Oliver and Cortez' head together and makes a hot tag to Youngblood who starts the war dance on Destroyer. Youngblood misses a dropkick, eats a grounded headbutt by Destroyer(I love how that's his primary offensive move) and the heels tag Oliver in and cut off the ring. Heels are working well here. Lots of double teaming where one guy holds Youngblood and the other one hits him. Which sets up Oliver accidentally hitting Cortez and Youngblood scoring the pin. Oliver slaps Cortez post match and fights back, including doing this hilarious thing where he turns around in a circle to get the fans excited. The army swarm and use the Castro Head on a Pole to just decimate Cortez, with Oliver doing most of the dirty work. The faces finally make the save. Post match Cortez does a pretty impassioned bloody promo. Yep, the guy who walks around with a Castro head on a stick is turning face. I think after watching two years or so of Portland I'm finally starting to see some angles replay. Buddy being afraid of Youngblood was something we'd seen before with Stasiak and the heart punch. This was reminiscent of the Piper/Brooks turn on Piper, though the execution was different with the faces helping Cortez after the match. It almost felt like the Gagne/Blackwell hug. This sets up Oliver vs Cortez around the circuit. Boyd and Rose is still the main match with Rose/Oliver vs Lightfoot/Youngblood being the other big match. Shame we didn't have this full match here.

So who would be the best #2 choice for the Million Dollar Man? Who debuted around that time? Warrior? Rude?

The closest I can think of is after Bagwell turns down Paul E's offer for a match with Austin.

Killjoy. It's like watching mommy and daddy fight, except for instead of daddy it's some vagrant instead.

I still don't think you guys should break your backs over this like you do. I get that it's the "best we have" but it's so haphazard. Watching this is great popcorn internet viewing, though, so I'm kind of glad that you do.

Welcome to the board! Vaguely off topic, but still, enjoy: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=18167

That's put really well, actually, though he does have epic matches in there too. I'm only quoting because that consistency and ability to do his job to sell tickets and draw eyes week after week is endlessly more important to me, personally, than "great matches." Little things and the right things, consistently, over time matter way more to me than being in the right place at the right time for a great match. If you watch dozens and dozens of matches of a wrestler, you can figure out how good or not they were, even if they weren't headlining for 30+ minutes or whatever (which Buddy was). But I know I'm a big minority on that.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling. No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor. What does that make Cena?