Matt D

Babyface control? See the heel control segment has some obvious functions and its rationale is pretty clear: - generate heat for the heel - generate sympathy for the babyface - build the crowd to the point where they are ready to pop big for the comeback For a babyface control segment there is no such obvious function. The only one I can think of is: - kill time What else is a babyface control segment in the middle of a match really doing? Not a whole lot. You see it more as a version of extended shine which basically gets over the idea that the heel is formidable and has to be grounded for if he gets up, it's all but over for the babyface. The best recent version of this I saw was Race vs Martel from Portland and I wouldn't even call that all that good. On the other hand, there's a Rogs/Demolition match where it sort of raises the tension for when Demolition might get their hands on the babyfaces again.

I recommend them if you want to fall asleep.

"Control" exists but it's not always compelling.

Or it's a good indicator of what to expect. It's like a relationship. If trust is broken, it can be earned back. It's just not easy and takes time. But it's wrestling. An entertainment that constantly changes. Nickel back may do a good song and McDonalds may make a good sandwhich. You never know, and taking pre emptive strikes on anything is again, highly illogical. You keep using that word.... One uses logic to derive patterns from preexisting information in order to make decisions in life when it comes how to spend your time, money, etc. That's how we interface and understand the world around us. Moreover, it's insane to continue to do the same thing and somehow expect different results. I always try to explain why i like or don't like something though! I spend lots of time doing that. I'm generally consistent too. Sometimes we like things for the same reasons, I think. Sometimes we like or dislike them for different reasons. That's a testament to Buddy, by the way. If there's something we find common ground on, whether it's Buddy or Bock or what, it has to be pretty damn good.

You can take pre-existing information and extrapolate possibilities. I think you may actually use logic to do it. Sometimes you might even go "hey, this sounds great. I want to see it."

It's like anything else. You have to admit and understand your bias and then use that as a gauge to how far you want to go with things. The more you know about a topic the more confident you might be in arguing the point. At the same time, you have to be wary about the fact that you might be wrong. Everyone on this board is capable of having a pretty legitimate opinion from reading spoilers, I think. I can go "Hey, Will, do you think that Smackdown is going to be good based on the spoilers and how the shows have been over the last few months?" and I would respect his opinion. I could also ask. "So based on your years of watching wrestling, what do you think about that booking decision in the main event," and again, I'd be interested in what he would have to say. Would I take it as gospel? No, but I also wouldn't if he had seen it. We're not arguing truth about this stuff. A booking decision can't be objectively good (unless, I guess, it draws? and even then). It's all opinion and I'm going to factor in what I know about the person and some of that is whether or not they've actually seen it or not. I also factor in that Johnny has been positive about every single thing over the last 9 months. Some of that i'm sure is to combat people have been negative about every single thing over the last nine months. It doesn't mean I discount him or accept him out of hand, but I keep it in mind.

Boo. I love Stan Stasiak with the right opponent.* *Buddy Rose.

It's Pro Wrestling, not advanced trig. You know what you're talking about, you can pretty much figure out booking from reading about it. On the other hand, if you are a poster who is a snarky douche who thinks you're funny, then you can watch it all and still have a moronic opinion. Watching it helps, but there isn't exactly a ton of nuance. Someone gets heat on someone else. Who, why, how? It's not rocket science.

"Big match feel" is something that matters less to me than almost any other factor, but it's something I think has always been important to Dave.

You know what would really put this angle over the top? If they brought in Sean Waltman to just stooge in the background of all of Hunter's promos.

I think height is an issue way more than body type. What Bill Dundee accomplished really can't be overstated.

Daniel Bryan could totally be a Mike Graham in Florida sort of guy or a Denny Brown in Crockett sort. I think he could be okay in the Danny Davis role in Memphis (which is sort of like the Bill Dundee role but with smaller crowds).

I think Cena vs Edge from Summerslam 06 is an interesting match because Edge's offense looks way better than usual. I'm not sure if it's the stage or if it's Cena making it look good or what.

Thirty points to NintendoLogic for getting on the Arn Anderson, Super Agent bandwagon.

Flair's stuff looks pretty damn good, usually.

Just the ones on Verne in Bockwinkel in 86-7 or all of them?

To be fair, if you've been watching wrestling all your life, you can pretty much figure out if something's booked well or not by reading the results/comments/catching youtube links. I don't think your opinion is going to wildly change if you saw the whole show. If anything, you'll probably like it less since you just sat through three hours of it. I don't think that's unreasonable for people who have been engrossed in this their entire life. Often times those same people would say that they liked the sound of something if it looks good on paper too. It's a cost/benefit. The chances that someone's opinion will differ is probably pretty minimal from seeing, well, I don't know what? How the pacing of a R-Truth match fifteen minutes before affects the tenor of the youtube clip that they saw? How that commercial break airs out the segment?

Neither here nor there, but one guy who was exceptionally good at making Edge's offense look worthwhile was Cena.

I am. Absolutely. He's one of my favorite guys on the WWF roster in 91-92. His offense looks king-sized compared to most of the roster. He bumps huge, all over the ring. He has the manic energy that Brody wished he had. There's a six minute sprint(yes, sprint) vs Bulldog on youtube. Watch the way he bumps on his missed dropkick, over the rope, off of Bulldog's armdrag, the energy in the opening clubber exchange, the rope running. How good his transition headbutt to the chest looks, his flying tackle, his early big boot, his constant frantic motion between his stomps, with his later punts looking actively good. Even his chinlock makes for a solid visual (though some of that is bulldog's selling, but some is the yanking back and the hus-ing). He keeps stuff pretty interesting too, switching up his offense briskly. Bulldog's comeback is led by Nord taking a huge bump over the top rope, and they work a pretty damn good finishing sequence for a early 90s syndi show. Watch the match.

There may be enough Boris Zhukov out there where you could do that.

Buddy Rose vs Butch Miller - 2/3 Falls - June 7, 1980 First and foremost, the blowoff Tag between the Sheepherders and Piper/Martel was great. I loved it. I loved the way the heels got their comeuppance through the falls with the faces still looking vulnerable. That match ended with Buddy accidentally whacking a Sheepherder with the flag and hilariously continuing to attack him post match behind the other's back. Buddy got caught and I have to admit, as much as I looked forward to the Martel vs Rose matches, I am really, really looking forward to seeing Crazy Butch Miller get his hands on Buddy, even if this happened 30+ years ago. Buddy is taking the match under protest because the sponsors demanded it. Bless those sponsors. They had been wrestling in the loop over the last week, with the Herders getting the advantage but we don't have those matches. We have this one. Crowd is hot for Miller and Bonnema sort of plays it up as bewildering for the Sheepherders. Buddy immediately takes a powder. He's still wearing the match/wig. In one of the previous matches in the loop Miller got it off and Buddy took the countout to the back. In another match Buddy teamed with Ivan Volkoff, who from the one match I've seen is pretty rough. Buddy is stalling like he's never stalled before. The crowd is chanting for Miller. He finally gets his hands on him and Buddy sells all around the ring. He tries to escape and Miller hangs on to the tights causing a full moon which is actually not a spot they went to often up until now. Big kneelift and back body drop. Miller stooges for the fans but keeps on Buddy leading to a bump right into the ring post. Buddy tumbles out and sells like he's been killed for twenty minutes, not three as the fans eat it up. Miller rolls out and bites Buddy before stooging for the crowd again. Flying back elbow in the middle of the ring and three elbow drops and the pin. This is seriously the most I've ever seen Buddy squashed and it was the perfect time to do it. Great moment and the crowd loved every second of it. Buddy just made Miller as a babyface in that fall. Butch tosses him out post-pin. Between the falls, Rose tries to loosen the turnbuckle. Miller starts the second fall with a bunch of great kidney shots before he goes after the mask as the crowd erupts. It costs him though as Buddy's able to clap his legs around his head. It's just a blip as Miller hits a few throat shots and goes right back to the mask. Buddy gets another cheap shot (eyerake), but Miller reverses a whip into the corner, calls to the fans again, and eats another eyerake. Buddy slaps on a desperate chinlock to contain Miller as the fans chant for him even louder than before. Ref raises the hand twice, but Miller goes right back to the midsection and then throat. Then he starts doing some grade A clubbering to the face/skull. Rose capitalizes on Miller putting his head down with a kick and hits a flying back elbow of his own only to get chucked off at a two count causing more fan eruption. Buddy does these forearm smashes to the skull like Miller had been doing. I've never seen Buddy do them before but they look great. He follows up with a bite. Rope-Jerk to the throat and a nice looking knee drop but Miller chucks him off again. Two corner whips. The second Miller reverses but Buddy gets his knees up, Flairs his feet onto the second rope and gets the lightning pin. He keeps on Miller after the fall. This is pretty simple stuff but it's great due to the heat and due to the sheer vulnerability Buddy is showing. He got out of that fall by the skin of his teeth and it's all in his ringwork. He no longer has back up. He's on his own against a beast in Miller and he's fighting for his life. Third fall starts with the fans chanting for Butch. Buddy tries to fire away but he can't stand toe to toe with Miller and immediately begs off. Buddy gets a lucky kidney shot in the corner, ducks out and slams a leg into the corner from the outside. He then pulls Miller out and slams his head against the pole. Buddy is a shark who smells blood, just battering the hell out of Miller on the outside however he can, occasionally rolling in to break the count. You can't beat a Sheepherder this way though and Miller fights back enough that Buddy can't roll back in and both guys get counted out. Miller's opened up and the two guys are just brawling like crazy. The undercard guys try to break it up and this is really good, really heated stuff. The image of three guys holding back a bloodied Miller is awesome and he gets away anyway! They end up in the ring again. Great brawl post-match. This made Miller look like a million bucks, Rose utterly desperate but still tough enough to get his licks in and definitely made ME want to see more and I'm sure the crowd as well.

If you accept Dave's view, then you should not watch old footage. You should just accept his word on what was good and what sucked. And if you happen to see old footage, just like what Dave liked because that is the right thing to like. But of course you should watch old footage because that perspective is fucking stupid. The entire 80s DVDVR project and 90s Yearbook project blow that whole fucking thing out of the water. We are discovering so many fucking great matches, when the entire thing is done, I probably never need to watch anything but 80s sets and 90s yearbooks again and be happy to be a wrestling fan. And people are disagreeing about what was good and what was bad on those too. I find it really strange that when Dave disagrees with somebody, he pulls out such a lazy defense. We can't believe our lying eyes? Fuck it, I call dibs on a Brody podcast. Anyone want to join in? We should have a Brody symposium.

I was a big Shane Douglas fan in late 90-early 91, but I think people who end up HERE might be exceptions.

I Also think that he thinks that if it worked back then (Drew, popped crowds, inspired fear, etc), then who are we to say otherwise?

Only if Morton or Smothers win?