Matt D

There may be enough Boris Zhukov out there where you could do that.

Buddy Rose vs Butch Miller - 2/3 Falls - June 7, 1980 First and foremost, the blowoff Tag between the Sheepherders and Piper/Martel was great. I loved it. I loved the way the heels got their comeuppance through the falls with the faces still looking vulnerable. That match ended with Buddy accidentally whacking a Sheepherder with the flag and hilariously continuing to attack him post match behind the other's back. Buddy got caught and I have to admit, as much as I looked forward to the Martel vs Rose matches, I am really, really looking forward to seeing Crazy Butch Miller get his hands on Buddy, even if this happened 30+ years ago. Buddy is taking the match under protest because the sponsors demanded it. Bless those sponsors. They had been wrestling in the loop over the last week, with the Herders getting the advantage but we don't have those matches. We have this one. Crowd is hot for Miller and Bonnema sort of plays it up as bewildering for the Sheepherders. Buddy immediately takes a powder. He's still wearing the match/wig. In one of the previous matches in the loop Miller got it off and Buddy took the countout to the back. In another match Buddy teamed with Ivan Volkoff, who from the one match I've seen is pretty rough. Buddy is stalling like he's never stalled before. The crowd is chanting for Miller. He finally gets his hands on him and Buddy sells all around the ring. He tries to escape and Miller hangs on to the tights causing a full moon which is actually not a spot they went to often up until now. Big kneelift and back body drop. Miller stooges for the fans but keeps on Buddy leading to a bump right into the ring post. Buddy tumbles out and sells like he's been killed for twenty minutes, not three as the fans eat it up. Miller rolls out and bites Buddy before stooging for the crowd again. Flying back elbow in the middle of the ring and three elbow drops and the pin. This is seriously the most I've ever seen Buddy squashed and it was the perfect time to do it. Great moment and the crowd loved every second of it. Buddy just made Miller as a babyface in that fall. Butch tosses him out post-pin. Between the falls, Rose tries to loosen the turnbuckle. Miller starts the second fall with a bunch of great kidney shots before he goes after the mask as the crowd erupts. It costs him though as Buddy's able to clap his legs around his head. It's just a blip as Miller hits a few throat shots and goes right back to the mask. Buddy gets another cheap shot (eyerake), but Miller reverses a whip into the corner, calls to the fans again, and eats another eyerake. Buddy slaps on a desperate chinlock to contain Miller as the fans chant for him even louder than before. Ref raises the hand twice, but Miller goes right back to the midsection and then throat. Then he starts doing some grade A clubbering to the face/skull. Rose capitalizes on Miller putting his head down with a kick and hits a flying back elbow of his own only to get chucked off at a two count causing more fan eruption. Buddy does these forearm smashes to the skull like Miller had been doing. I've never seen Buddy do them before but they look great. He follows up with a bite. Rope-Jerk to the throat and a nice looking knee drop but Miller chucks him off again. Two corner whips. The second Miller reverses but Buddy gets his knees up, Flairs his feet onto the second rope and gets the lightning pin. He keeps on Miller after the fall. This is pretty simple stuff but it's great due to the heat and due to the sheer vulnerability Buddy is showing. He got out of that fall by the skin of his teeth and it's all in his ringwork. He no longer has back up. He's on his own against a beast in Miller and he's fighting for his life. Third fall starts with the fans chanting for Butch. Buddy tries to fire away but he can't stand toe to toe with Miller and immediately begs off. Buddy gets a lucky kidney shot in the corner, ducks out and slams a leg into the corner from the outside. He then pulls Miller out and slams his head against the pole. Buddy is a shark who smells blood, just battering the hell out of Miller on the outside however he can, occasionally rolling in to break the count. You can't beat a Sheepherder this way though and Miller fights back enough that Buddy can't roll back in and both guys get counted out. Miller's opened up and the two guys are just brawling like crazy. The undercard guys try to break it up and this is really good, really heated stuff. The image of three guys holding back a bloodied Miller is awesome and he gets away anyway! They end up in the ring again. Great brawl post-match. This made Miller look like a million bucks, Rose utterly desperate but still tough enough to get his licks in and definitely made ME want to see more and I'm sure the crowd as well.

If you accept Dave's view, then you should not watch old footage. You should just accept his word on what was good and what sucked. And if you happen to see old footage, just like what Dave liked because that is the right thing to like. But of course you should watch old footage because that perspective is fucking stupid. The entire 80s DVDVR project and 90s Yearbook project blow that whole fucking thing out of the water. We are discovering so many fucking great matches, when the entire thing is done, I probably never need to watch anything but 80s sets and 90s yearbooks again and be happy to be a wrestling fan. And people are disagreeing about what was good and what was bad on those too. I find it really strange that when Dave disagrees with somebody, he pulls out such a lazy defense. We can't believe our lying eyes? Fuck it, I call dibs on a Brody podcast. Anyone want to join in? We should have a Brody symposium.

I was a big Shane Douglas fan in late 90-early 91, but I think people who end up HERE might be exceptions.

I Also think that he thinks that if it worked back then (Drew, popped crowds, inspired fear, etc), then who are we to say otherwise?

Only if Morton or Smothers win?

Why wouldn't they have paid for Barry. He's absolutely the sort of guy they'd pick up the cost for. He was a back office guy for a few years as a video producer or what not in the 00s. They've used him on a number of DVDs. His nephews are currently in the company. So far as we know it wasn't immediately due to drugs. Even without the HOF thing, considering what they do pay for, I don't see why they wouldn't cover that.

They didn't kill it. They gave the fans something they wanted and snatched it away in order to make them hate the heels and root for the babyfaces. It's what the chase is all about, tugging on the heartstrings. It matters a lot more on a narrative level for good to beat evil. Bryan beat Cena, sure, but that was fair and straight and even. He won and he won clean like very few people ever get to do against Cena. Then it was snatched away. Now, he has the legitimate higher ground so when he finally vanquishes evil, it'll matter even more.

I don't really see why there's some special case for Brody to be honest. Fans were hot for the Road Warriors. Fans were hot for Ultimate Warrior. Fans were hot for Sid. Fans were hot for George Steele. Fans were hot for Brutus Beefcake. Fans were hot for Ice Train. What's the big difference with Brody? Only one as far as I can see: he had a lot of influential friends, backstage pull and Meltzer was high on him back in the day. 1) Brody got to name his own terms which made a lot of guys in the business envious and even proud 2) It seems like Brody did help a number of young guys when it came to neogitation lessons and what not or with Japan 3) He died relatively young and tragically and in a way that was as pro wrestling sleaze legend as it gets 4) He thus never had a chance to sell out to Vince (or Crocket, or really anyone) 5) A whole generation of fans basically only heard of him instead of seeing him 6) Basically, he makes a great symbol

Which again, would be a massive issue if we were primarily comparing stuff from today against it instead of stuff from the same era, a ton of which (even of the same style of matches) holds up amazingly well.

Are there Brody matches on Wrestling Gold that Dave does commentary on? it's been a while.

Stevie or Davey? Who doesn't like Stevie Richards?

Or may, maybe people's tastes can change and wrestling can be not just about the business but about the aesthetics. That's not even the case here though. It's so amazingly plain to see what's on tape. It's not even a shades of grey thing like Michaels or a stylistic thing like someone like Richards. The things that people say Brody did amazingly just aren't there when you watch.

Could any of this mean just more content such as Superstars and Saturday Morning Slam? I love the C shows these days.

I will say that the more lucha I see the more I come to appreciate it and it's not all stylistic. The more Satanico I watch the more I come to understand his MO, what he likes to do, why he likes to do it. For the Sami Zayn vs Cesaro 2/3 falls match, I went back and saw the first two matches in the series and that added so much, because on the macro, it helped to see why Cesaro was so pissed at him between the promo work and the lightning win in the first match and on the micro, they went back to previous matches and that was a huge part of the build of the match both in the use of the chinlock and some specific counters. As for Bryan vs Cena, I had missed the promo the previous Monday so the slapfight meant SOMETHING but it sure as hell didn't have the resonance it would have if I had seen them talk about it for two minutes before. Etc. etc.

Ok enough random lucha. Onwards. Buddy And the Army (Buddy/Sheepherders) vs Savage/Martel/Piper - 2/3 Falls - May 24, 1980 Pre Match they have a little flag waving contest. The crowd's pretty heated for this already. Buddy tries to destroy Martel's roses again and gets nailed for his trouble. Savage tarts out slamming heads together and clearing house. Meanwhile people are walking around the crowd with that US flag. I remember well our war with New Zealand. Savage drops down and Williams runs into Martel's forearm on the apron Miller hit a kidney shot on Martel but that just pisses him off. He's doing these giant downwards chops to a prone Miller and the fans are loving it. Piper comes in and unloads with a flurry. Bonnema took some time to go on about how Ricky and Roddy were the biggest babyfaces in the territory since Snuka or even Mayne. Buddy is a presence on the outside, breaking up a pin over the top rope but then no one wants to tag in vs Roddy. Buddy delegates Luke in and Savage shows them his ass. Buddy's willing to go in there vs "the old fella with the bad leg though." Buddy goes for it but misses a seat drop in the rope selling it in the stoogiest way possible. Buddy gets the advantage with a kick to the leg, though, and the heels start to really take over on it, cutting off hope spots with ample targeting. Ref is distracted as Williams tries to go in without a tag and Savage hits a low blow and making the hot tag to Martel. Williams gets a knee up on a back body drop though and the heels start on Martel. Despite dirty tactics and smart tags they can't keep him down and he gets advantage, tagging Savage in. Right back to the leg and then into the heels' corner. Faces distract the ref in anger and they put Savage into the ringpost, shoulder first on the outside. Buddy holds back the Sheepherders and despite Martel and the fan trying to explain to the ref what happened if, he counts Savage out for the first fall. Heels celebrate by running the NZ flag around the ring. Buddy pretending to play baseball with it is hilarious and it pays off as the flag flies off and the Sheepherders get incensed. Second fall has the heels back on the same page for the most part. Savage has to start the second fall since that's how it works in Portland and the heels immediately work over the arm/shoulder.Dutch fights back by biting the ear in desperation (Bonnema says it's a thumb to the eye but I see what I see). Buddy makes the quick tag to cut off the hope though. Savage is awesome in roughing hs way out of thee, this time fishhooking Williams in the face. Heels cause the ref to miss the tag to Piper though. Tag to Miller to cut off the hope. Back on the arm. Savage hits a punch off the rope but Buddy reaches in to cut it off. Tag to Williams. Good heat segment. Collision with Williams but both guy are out of position. Savage rolled across the ring and make the hot tag to Piper. It breaks down in a big way until Piper slaps on the sleeper ("Martel has taught Piper the sleeper). Martel gets Buddy in one on the outside and Savage ties up Miller. That's the second fall. Good stuff with the great image of Rose and Williams both unconscious in the ring. They drape the US flag over the heels then fold it up properly before taunting the NZ flag. Rose comes along but the heels can't get Williams awake and the crowd laughs and laughs. Between falls Martel finally wakes him up. The Third fall starts with Piper unloading on Williams. They draw Piper into the corner and try to jam the arm but Piper slaps a sleeper right back on. Miller runs in to break it up and the heels take over momentarily. Buddy tries to punch it out with Piper and pays for it. Piper start on the mask and it all breaks down again. Ref is distracted allowing Miller to hit Piper with the flag and Buddy gets a very quick win. This wasn't at the level of a lot of the other stuff I've been watching but it was sure as hell fun and definitely set up things for the future (Dissension, including the fact that Miller has the next Title shot on Tuesday, which then gets cancelled to set up a six man coal miner's glove match because Savage is so pissed off over the flag finish and the way the Sheepherders were bragging about it).

I had missed the promo setting it up. I do mean to rewatch the match at some point.

That is fun, of course. But it also would have been fun if Austin went.. "Ah, come on you jackass. You weren't there!" in his Austin voice and they both had a big laugh about it. I don't think anyone was actually think Austin should have started to contradict him like it was some sort of presidential debate. That's what we're for.

"I didn't get smartened up until I was out there for my first match." is pretty common for older guys.

Alright. So I saw both singles Lucero vs Hechicero matches, and now that I've heard Dylan really talk about it, i think everything he mentioned about the first fall of the title match was so much more pronounced in the first match. Lucero's holds were so much more simplistic in gritty in the earlier match than in the title match. He'd would just cruelly wrench a leg or something and then Hechicero would do something very elaborate. Lucero's holds in the title match were far more complex and I think it made for a much less well-defined and complete story (especially if the story is as Dylan was presenting it). Then, in the first match, it all builds to the brilliant moment in the second fall where Lucero just gets pissed and hits that amazing punch out of nowhere, which was such a great payoff. I get that the matwork and escapes were more complicated in the title match and in a vacuum might have been more compelling but I can't see at all how the first two falls told a better, more interesting story relative to the earlier match. I thought there was something else I was missing (and Dylan's mentioned body language throughout the fall and what not) but from what you said in the podcast, everything you talk about with the gritty holds Lucero was using and his frustration with the more elaborate stuff Hechicero was doing was so much more pronounced and interesting in the first match than the title match. Now if you wanted to put forward the idea that Lucero was trying to do more elaborate stuff to keep up with Hechicero in the title match, I might have been able to see but from the story you presented in the podcast, that's shown much more in the match the week before. Of course, the third fall in the title match is absolutely it's own beast. Edit: I explained that really poorly. Mainly, I thought that a lot of the things Dylan mentioned in the first fall were more pronounced in the match that came a week before the title match. Maybe it was the nuance that made the Title match more special and those things were still there and my neophyte lucha watching made me grasp on to something simple instead of something more complex, mind you. Edit 2: Finished up. Great show. There's so much to like right now, even if I'm only tuned into a relatively small amount of it. One great thing in our hobby is that if you miss stuff it's not hard to catch up weeks or even years later.

If you only saw this set, you might think Zhukov is a Tier 4 guy or something. I'm not even totally kidding. It's nuts.

Khawk, I think that the stock of the AWA, at least in our part of the internet, has risen hugely over the last year. You have to be glad about that.

Not to bring it back to me, but I do thoroughly enjoy wrestling, certainly. I've dug the Buddy Rose matches I've been watching a ton, I think, and I would imagine that stuff would come through in what i write (since it's generally train of thought and for my own use later on), even if the ultimate essay I wrote was more analytic. THAT said, PWO is its own animal and I'm going to be more analytic here than even DVDVR because the level of people I'm talking when it comes to knowledge and breadth of watching and just experience in talking about pro wrestling is incredibly high.