Matt D

Stevie or Davey? Who doesn't like Stevie Richards?

Or may, maybe people's tastes can change and wrestling can be not just about the business but about the aesthetics. That's not even the case here though. It's so amazingly plain to see what's on tape. It's not even a shades of grey thing like Michaels or a stylistic thing like someone like Richards. The things that people say Brody did amazingly just aren't there when you watch.

Could any of this mean just more content such as Superstars and Saturday Morning Slam? I love the C shows these days.

I will say that the more lucha I see the more I come to appreciate it and it's not all stylistic. The more Satanico I watch the more I come to understand his MO, what he likes to do, why he likes to do it. For the Sami Zayn vs Cesaro 2/3 falls match, I went back and saw the first two matches in the series and that added so much, because on the macro, it helped to see why Cesaro was so pissed at him between the promo work and the lightning win in the first match and on the micro, they went back to previous matches and that was a huge part of the build of the match both in the use of the chinlock and some specific counters. As for Bryan vs Cena, I had missed the promo the previous Monday so the slapfight meant SOMETHING but it sure as hell didn't have the resonance it would have if I had seen them talk about it for two minutes before. Etc. etc.

Ok enough random lucha. Onwards. Buddy And the Army (Buddy/Sheepherders) vs Savage/Martel/Piper - 2/3 Falls - May 24, 1980 Pre Match they have a little flag waving contest. The crowd's pretty heated for this already. Buddy tries to destroy Martel's roses again and gets nailed for his trouble. Savage tarts out slamming heads together and clearing house. Meanwhile people are walking around the crowd with that US flag. I remember well our war with New Zealand. Savage drops down and Williams runs into Martel's forearm on the apron Miller hit a kidney shot on Martel but that just pisses him off. He's doing these giant downwards chops to a prone Miller and the fans are loving it. Piper comes in and unloads with a flurry. Bonnema took some time to go on about how Ricky and Roddy were the biggest babyfaces in the territory since Snuka or even Mayne. Buddy is a presence on the outside, breaking up a pin over the top rope but then no one wants to tag in vs Roddy. Buddy delegates Luke in and Savage shows them his ass. Buddy's willing to go in there vs "the old fella with the bad leg though." Buddy goes for it but misses a seat drop in the rope selling it in the stoogiest way possible. Buddy gets the advantage with a kick to the leg, though, and the heels start to really take over on it, cutting off hope spots with ample targeting. Ref is distracted as Williams tries to go in without a tag and Savage hits a low blow and making the hot tag to Martel. Williams gets a knee up on a back body drop though and the heels start on Martel. Despite dirty tactics and smart tags they can't keep him down and he gets advantage, tagging Savage in. Right back to the leg and then into the heels' corner. Faces distract the ref in anger and they put Savage into the ringpost, shoulder first on the outside. Buddy holds back the Sheepherders and despite Martel and the fan trying to explain to the ref what happened if, he counts Savage out for the first fall. Heels celebrate by running the NZ flag around the ring. Buddy pretending to play baseball with it is hilarious and it pays off as the flag flies off and the Sheepherders get incensed. Second fall has the heels back on the same page for the most part. Savage has to start the second fall since that's how it works in Portland and the heels immediately work over the arm/shoulder.Dutch fights back by biting the ear in desperation (Bonnema says it's a thumb to the eye but I see what I see). Buddy makes the quick tag to cut off the hope though. Savage is awesome in roughing hs way out of thee, this time fishhooking Williams in the face. Heels cause the ref to miss the tag to Piper though. Tag to Miller to cut off the hope. Back on the arm. Savage hits a punch off the rope but Buddy reaches in to cut it off. Tag to Williams. Good heat segment. Collision with Williams but both guy are out of position. Savage rolled across the ring and make the hot tag to Piper. It breaks down in a big way until Piper slaps on the sleeper ("Martel has taught Piper the sleeper). Martel gets Buddy in one on the outside and Savage ties up Miller. That's the second fall. Good stuff with the great image of Rose and Williams both unconscious in the ring. They drape the US flag over the heels then fold it up properly before taunting the NZ flag. Rose comes along but the heels can't get Williams awake and the crowd laughs and laughs. Between falls Martel finally wakes him up. The Third fall starts with Piper unloading on Williams. They draw Piper into the corner and try to jam the arm but Piper slaps a sleeper right back on. Miller runs in to break it up and the heels take over momentarily. Buddy tries to punch it out with Piper and pays for it. Piper start on the mask and it all breaks down again. Ref is distracted allowing Miller to hit Piper with the flag and Buddy gets a very quick win. This wasn't at the level of a lot of the other stuff I've been watching but it was sure as hell fun and definitely set up things for the future (Dissension, including the fact that Miller has the next Title shot on Tuesday, which then gets cancelled to set up a six man coal miner's glove match because Savage is so pissed off over the flag finish and the way the Sheepherders were bragging about it).

I had missed the promo setting it up. I do mean to rewatch the match at some point.

That is fun, of course. But it also would have been fun if Austin went.. "Ah, come on you jackass. You weren't there!" in his Austin voice and they both had a big laugh about it. I don't think anyone was actually think Austin should have started to contradict him like it was some sort of presidential debate. That's what we're for.

"I didn't get smartened up until I was out there for my first match." is pretty common for older guys.

Alright. So I saw both singles Lucero vs Hechicero matches, and now that I've heard Dylan really talk about it, i think everything he mentioned about the first fall of the title match was so much more pronounced in the first match. Lucero's holds were so much more simplistic in gritty in the earlier match than in the title match. He'd would just cruelly wrench a leg or something and then Hechicero would do something very elaborate. Lucero's holds in the title match were far more complex and I think it made for a much less well-defined and complete story (especially if the story is as Dylan was presenting it). Then, in the first match, it all builds to the brilliant moment in the second fall where Lucero just gets pissed and hits that amazing punch out of nowhere, which was such a great payoff. I get that the matwork and escapes were more complicated in the title match and in a vacuum might have been more compelling but I can't see at all how the first two falls told a better, more interesting story relative to the earlier match. I thought there was something else I was missing (and Dylan's mentioned body language throughout the fall and what not) but from what you said in the podcast, everything you talk about with the gritty holds Lucero was using and his frustration with the more elaborate stuff Hechicero was doing was so much more pronounced and interesting in the first match than the title match. Now if you wanted to put forward the idea that Lucero was trying to do more elaborate stuff to keep up with Hechicero in the title match, I might have been able to see but from the story you presented in the podcast, that's shown much more in the match the week before. Of course, the third fall in the title match is absolutely it's own beast. Edit: I explained that really poorly. Mainly, I thought that a lot of the things Dylan mentioned in the first fall were more pronounced in the match that came a week before the title match. Maybe it was the nuance that made the Title match more special and those things were still there and my neophyte lucha watching made me grasp on to something simple instead of something more complex, mind you. Edit 2: Finished up. Great show. There's so much to like right now, even if I'm only tuned into a relatively small amount of it. One great thing in our hobby is that if you miss stuff it's not hard to catch up weeks or even years later.

If you only saw this set, you might think Zhukov is a Tier 4 guy or something. I'm not even totally kidding. It's nuts.

Khawk, I think that the stock of the AWA, at least in our part of the internet, has risen hugely over the last year. You have to be glad about that.

Not to bring it back to me, but I do thoroughly enjoy wrestling, certainly. I've dug the Buddy Rose matches I've been watching a ton, I think, and I would imagine that stuff would come through in what i write (since it's generally train of thought and for my own use later on), even if the ultimate essay I wrote was more analytic. THAT said, PWO is its own animal and I'm going to be more analytic here than even DVDVR because the level of people I'm talking when it comes to knowledge and breadth of watching and just experience in talking about pro wrestling is incredibly high.

I wasn't necessarily saying analysis should be fun for Austin. Just for me in direct response to Johnny's line. I do think Austin does really love wrestling though and he really loves figuring out what works and what doesn't. He's well known (even past what he says) for being a guy who always watched all the matches on the card early in his career even when other guys would be doing anything else.

I think the pop for the We're Here would be insane, but I can't see it happening.

Can you imagine the HHH promos on Hero?

Given the roster, who would you introduce? Hero? Ritchie Steamboat? I don't know. Styles? When's Rey due back? It shouldn't be a small guy like Styles or Rey. Having two underdogs vs the World makes no sense in the DB storyline. The perfect candidate would actually have been Kane if not for the Wyatt storyline. I didn't realize Sami Callihan was only 5'10". I got nothing. They obviously wasted Brody Lee's debut.

Given the roster, who would you introduce? Hero? Ritchie Steamboat? I don't know. Styles? When's Rey due back?

Analyzing wrestling is fun.

It's tricky because we're a lot broader than we used to be. I'd maybe say Goldberg in 98 relative to the internet wrestling community at the time that very much hated him?

Nah, what Austin does generally in those situations is just move on rather than be a dick and argue. It's part of why he's such a great host. That's why he's a great host? Because of letting inaccuracies slide? I've heard his podcast. There's nothing there that would make me suspect he would have any idea whether Flair was in Puerto Rico that night. That's true of 99% of the people who will ever interview Flair. What makes him a great host is him not arguing and moving on so the show has a flow and stays fun. When Flair was saying hardcore wrestling started when Funk pile driver him on the table, and that no one had ever done that before, Austin just moved on. That's a great host. I don't want Austin playing Mike Wallace, I want the fun enjoyable show he does. Remember folks, some people like to think, analyze and discuss.

2012-2013 poor cardio Rock then?

I still think you guys are sort of missing the mark. If you wanted a really big WWF guy, then maybe Bobby Lashley in that he had a very high profile match that had a decent amount of media attention but an ultimately forgettable run. Glacier's tempting but I'm not sure how well known he was despite the marketing campaign. (Kiss Demon would maybe fall on this level too).

My general argument is that the first few times out were very fun since he was making guys run past him, the vignettes were great, but most of all, adding El Paso de la Muerte to his offense made his matches so much more interesting. Since he stopped using the Figure Four post-Strike force, every tito singles match would have him hit the flying forearm in the finishing stretch but the heel would get to the ropes or out of the ring. At that point you knew Tito was going to lose since he already hit his finish.

I hate that they don't show a picture of Tito in the matador book.