Matt D

Buddy Rose vs Moondog Lonnie Mayne - 2/3 Falls - 10/1/77 Apparently young Will was in Portland and convinced Dutch Savage to book this second fall, because proto-DeBeers interferes in a great timed spot in the second fall, slamming Mayne's head on the corner. He gets color and Buddy spends the rest of the fall targetting the cut, pinpoint, wearing him down until he gets the pin. First Fall is all lightning quick and all shtick around the fall and last one is all comeback, and all to set up the streetfight the following Tuesday, but it's Buddy so it's all hugely entertaining stuff.

Sorry for the delay in response. as I said, my work filter was upset with you mentioning Regal and Buck and seemed to think it was objectionable content. I am at home and away from HAL now, so I can respond. I don't REALLY think that you guys just want lighttube matches. And yes, serving the narrative is subjective, but everything in wrestling is. It's art. Also, hitting someone hard if you hate them is logical and it does make sense, but there are matches on the set with a bigger, broader story that's both compelling and interesting with the execution of said story done well, and I see you guys repeatedly placing higher things that are often times straightforward so long as the violence is there and it isn't completely absurd. To be fair, the selling on the set is, in general, good, so that helps. I think I'm just expressing my frustration in a certain trend having listened to a lot of these now, and it's a trend that isn't wrong by any means. It just is a minor factor in what I care about. I see that you said blood is a tool to illustrate violence, but I was arguing that the violence itself is a tool for a greater end, and sometimes I think due to the format of this you guys are a little too into the trees and miss the forest. A lot of times you don't. And maybe, matches are meant to be watched in that way and I take note of way too much stuff, sometimes literally. Now I think we're late enough in the process that a lot of people have already seen the set. Personally, I'm using these as a) entertainment while at work and a way to figure out if there's anything I should rewatch. So I don't think this is going to move the needle too much one way or another, but I think the format might not be the most analytic way of watching this stuff.

HITC isn't even in contention unless people are saying it's a great Foley match because Funk worked a chunk of it and Funk is better than Foley.

From comments, I'm expecting this one to be pretty frustrating for me. Let's find out. I love that Kris has an answer for Condrey's nickname. Kris, what the hell are you saying about Bock not changing his style when he became a face? He changed his style on almost every match on the set. His Hansen match is totally different than his Larry matches which are totally different than the Hennig matches. Will's dedication to wrestling over childrearing is refreshing. I need to rewatch Hansen vs Hennig. I have it as my working #22. Oh hey, my passive aggressive talking point. I need to put the other headphone in to make sure I catch all this. Ok, it's not necessarily the brawling that is akin to a highspot match but the way you guys RESPOND to the brawling and (probably 2/3 legit) punches and blood and violence is akin to how ROH fans respond to the highspots. I think if there's steady violence and blood, you're going to respond no matter whether the story is compelling. What I hear when listening to these podcasts at least with Will and Johnny is that violence is enough, no matter whether or not it creates a narrative. It is an end to you and not a means to an end. It's "enough." That reminds me a lot of the action/high spot mentality. It's all about execution and intensity to you. Not always, of course, but when it comes up, that's enough. A match is great if it makes you go "OHHHHHHHHHHHH!" a lot. It just so happens that punches and blood make you do that instead of headdropping (or someone getting hit by a lightfixture). It's okay, though! I mean that's fine. People like different things. It's just the feeling I get and it's why that sometimes, on some matches, we can find common ground, and other times, we really can't. Kris (and I don't necessarily include him in this) goes at one point. "Hansen is covered in blood!" with massive excitement, and for me, that's not enough to get me excited. At that point, I think "Alright, so what does it mean?" And if I look at the match and it works and it's part of the means to the end that they were going for, great. I'm all for it. If not, that by itself isn't going to move me any more than any other well-executed dangling "means" would. To me, going "OOHHHHH" because you see an amazing high spot and "OHHHHHH" because you see some great punches are in the same category. That's what I'm trying to say. I do go "OHHHHHHH!" sometimes, but it's usually for a great bit of selling or a smart embedded transition that builds on something, or a call-back that I wasn't expecting that was used really well, or some really strong bit of character work in the match. If that makes sense. I think that's a different category. Let me know if that doesn't make sense. I could be wrong. I'm just going off what I'm hearing and your comments and the matches you like relative to the matches I like. I feel like that might not have done the trick, so a little more. I feel like you guys can watch a match and go "That was extremely violent." At that point, I will say. "Great, but was it good match?" and then you'll look at me like I'm crazy. Someone can have an amazing punch, but it's how they use that punch to serve the narrative that matters to me. Obviously, if someone has a good punch it will be a more effective tool in serving the narrative than if they have a shitty punch, but someone can have a shitty punch and use it in a way that it means more than someone else's really good, but poorly utilized great punch. I'll stop and keep listening, but let me know if that doesn't make sense. Wahoo vs Bock and Hansen vs Blackwell, to me, on the criteria that i judge wrestling which is very much "Narrative and the Tools Used to Serve the Narrative," were well-executed and exciting, but they weren't nearly as good as a lot of other matches. If you guys feel differently, that's ok. I'm just trying to explain myself and in a project like this, I think different viewpoints are important anyway. It's more important to me that you understand where I come from and why I feel like I do about what I perceive to be your biases, than me trying to convince you of anything.

Liked the back-half. Liked hearing about the WWF 80s process. I envy the obscure stuff Kris is watching. Anyway, 4. Rick Martel vs. Harley Race (4/20/86) 5. Stan Hansen vs. Nick Bockwinkel (4/20/86) 6. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (4/20/86) 7. Mike Rotundo vs. Doug Somers (5/1/86) 8. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Jesse Hernandez & Leon White (5/1/86) 13. Mike Rotundo & Curt Hennig vs. Mr. Go & Larry Zbyszko (5/1/86) 14. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Scott Hall & Curt Hennig (5/17/86) That's my least favorite finish on the set by far. I can't forgive it. Not even a little. I liked the Hernandez match more than you guys did. I get that it was "just what it was," but it was the best possible version of what it was.

Phil is instantly hilarious. I blame myself for not getting coffee or something with him since I've been working in DC for 6 or 7 years now. Oddest substitute Johnny ever. I am not a Michaels fan by any means but on this set he's almost always the poor man's Morton, not Gibson. he's the FIP in almost every Rockers match on the set. I do think this is some of his better career stuff, especially when he's got Rose and Somers to help him along. I've got this one as my working 44, right under Brad vs Martel. I'm glad I'm not the only one with an excel file of these things. I love Harley vs Martel since it really feels like Martel is one of the top stars of the world. That's also the feeling I get in the Martel + Zenk vs Dory and Terry tag, but that's another story. I also need to watch Martel vs Flair from Japan since i've never seen that. Man, swinging neckbreakers are awesome when done well. Screw that. This is my working #23. It's probably a little high but just a little. AWA crowds are absolutely reprobates. Buncha jerks. I swear in the early early 80s Verne never his heels get proper heat in the matches since he was afraid of riots. Anyway I love Bock in the Hansen match. He's basically playing Wahoo in Wahoo vs Bock. I have that as my working #26. The US Hansen match I want to see for some insane reason is this: Sting & PN News defeated the Great Muta & Stan Hansen when Sting pinned Muta after hitting him with a chair from a WCW House show in St. Louis. I don't think that was fancammed. There's also a Rick Steiner/Yellow Dog (Pillman) vs Windham + Hansen match that was probably a ton of fun, but again, Omni house show. I need to see the Hansen vs Idol bunkhouse match. I've never seen that either. And that's as far as I got before a meeting devoured me whole. Will continue tomorrow.

The Blood Diamond. I think Larry's AWA stuff is super underrated. Larry's stalling is genius since he's like a shark when he finally attacks. I LOVE Bock's charge in this match and the piledriver was huge. I think i zoned out during the Slaughter/Hansen stuff, but I agree that I would like to see the TV build for it and it's a shame we don't have it. Vader always said that he worked so stiff in his career since the first two guys they put him in with was Brody and then Hansen. I think Kris always adds a lot to the dynamic. I hate saying this but we're looking at a nitro 3 man team with the luchadors when they bring tenay in. So we have Bischoff/Mongo/Tenay. That's insulting to everyone in its own way, but I don't mean it that way. Will completely misread pissed off Bock. Johnny caught it though. Obviously I was wrong. He's Dusty not Mongo. I know you guys talk about how when you're talking about other things it means you're not as into the match, but when what you're talking about is Queen that means that the match inspired you to talk about great things. The hair ranking at the end was epic. 1. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Col. DeBeers (4/17/86) - My working #15 (I expect to have this higher than anyone else) 3. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Ric Flair (1/17/86) - My working #31 6. Stan Hansen vs. Sgt. Slaughter (2/23/86) 9. Buddy Rose, Doug Somers, & Larry Zbyszko vs. Steve Pardee, Mike Rotundo, Jimmy Snuka (4/17/86) 11. Col. DeBeers vs. Buck Zumhofe (2/23/86) 12. Stan Hansen vs. Sgt. Slaughter (Bunkhouse Match) (3/9/86) 13. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (2/23/86) (Loved it but it's just a matchlet) 15. Mike Rotundo & Barry Windham vs. The Fabulous Ones (4/20/86) - Working #135

I stopped once I hit Regal weeks ago. Starting to listen again now: Kris knows a lot of stuff. We all know this but still. It's worth mentioning. Also, he does a great evil Russian heel. I'm kind of disappointed that when Johnny brought up Regal as a Horseman we didn't get a Regal/Roma comparison which would be kind of apt. The Martel vs Boris cage match is my working #47, so it just made my top third. I think it's such a great showcase for Martel as champ. Zhukov is sort of the guy who looks the best on the set relative to the fact that he is Boris Zhukov. The cool thing about Volkoff is that he hated the USSR. He was a defector who defected during an int'l athletic competition and he saw his heel act as a way to really strike back against the Soviets. Kris continues to foreshadow the finish gloomily. This is one of those matches that is going to probably get knocked down a few slots when I reevaluate things. It's the AWA. All finishes are basically shit. The fans loved this one at least. I'm glad Kris isn't a fan of the midget match either since I have that relatively low. And I just laugh at you poor fools having to watch Regal vs Buck. And Kris is a jerk for saying "Lawler/Dundee" in the same sentence as this. I love how Buck would come out with the ghettoblaster boom box and then be playing Santa Claus is Coming to Town or whatever. That old Continental sounds so cool. Oh come on, there are plenty of AWA matches that I've seen that are LOADS better than this and that belong on the set more than this. Both with importance and quality, Hall vs DeBeers belongs. That ladies tag match no one else cares about belongs. Some of the Andre stuff belongs more than this. For historical value Bock vs Adnan maybe. Even Larry vs Ledoux because it's a great Larry performance. The Slaughter/Blackwell vs Roadies tag. One of Lawler's random defenses against Teijo Khan. ANYTHING. Anyway, this is my #147. It's functional. Boring as hell with one or two fun things. But functional at least. It was a wrestling match. Kind of. Anyway, no wonder Will's other kid wants nothing to do with wrestling. This is probably the sort of stuff he was combing through will making comps during sensitive formative times. I don't think the JIP hurts Flair vs Bock much since it's such high end stuff. It hurts it as in it could be top ten if not for the cut, but it's still top 40 with it. I always consider the leg loop in way to put on the Figure Four the "Ron Garvin" way to do it. I think Flair's way is much more visual. I need to see the Backlund vs Race match. I disagree a little about Johnny's comment "Or if you hear us going OOH OH OOOOH OH." To me that could well mean that they're just hitting each other hard and bleeding, or that it's particularly spotty. Not that it's necessarily a good match. Sometimes I think that guys punching each other hard for ten minutes is the 1983 equivalent of a headdroppy Indy Spotfest and that is enough for some people. I'm ok with Hansen vs Hennig being mostly Hennig since Hansen is a totally different animal than Hennig and sometimes you need to get over the champ strong early on. Also because this ends up part of the longer Hennig story. I think it fits well with Hansen in general. How Bock wrestles him, how Leon White does. How Hennig does next time. God, Hansen's title run is actually pretty compelling as a whole. I'm less okay because it seemed like the point of it was to get over Hall as a potential challenger. Slaughter said he gave all of his Pretty Boy gear to Jesse Ventura. Nord is really good by 91. I get that he wasn't yet here. Imagine a Brody that bumps crazy for people and has killer offense. This is my #48 3. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Ric Flair (1/17/86) 4. Stan Hansen vs. Sgt. Slaughter (2/2/86) 5. Rick Martel vs. Boris Zuhkov (Cage Match) (11/14/85) 7. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Rick Martel (9/29/85) 8. Ric Flair vs. Magnum TA (9/28/85) 10. Stan Hansen vs. Curt Hennig (2/1/86) 14. Jimmy Garvin & Steve Regal vs. Scott Hall & Curt Hennig (11/14/85) 16. Steve Regal vs. Buck Zumhofe (11/28/85) Don't think I need to necessarily rewatch any of this stuff.

Buddy Rose vs Jay Youngblood - 2/3 Falls - 1977 - Special Ref: Jonathan Boyd First fall is absolutely hilarious. Jay's almost an afterthought in this thing, to the point where the fans are chanting "We Want Jay" when he's right there, in the ring. Boyd stymies Rose at every point. Fast counts against him. Slow counts for him. Allowing hair pulling by Jay. Funniest wrestling you'll see all day. The fall ends with a lightning fast rope running segment. Second fall is Buddy mauling Jay with great looking offense finishing with the Billy Robinson backbreaker. Third fall is an almost immediate DQ as Buddy gets fed up. Hugely entertaining. Buddy Rose vs Adrian Adonis - 2/3 Falls - 9/8/78 - Rip Rogers is Handcuffed to Steve Pardee Babyface Adonis is so weird to watch. This is a lot of fun, though. First fall is very back and forth with some holds and reversals, a decent amount of shtick, cool legwork from Rose, Adonis sort of no selling it, Pardee being the equalizer to prevent Buddy from taking a powder after the come back, and a great looking pinfall after a missed haymaker by Rose. Second fall is an extremely long front facelock segment that's worked very, very well. Lots of comebacks and slow and steady wearing down as Buddy finally sets up the Neckbreaker only taking too much time to go for the pinfall afterwards. Finish is Pardee forcing a missed top rope move by Buddy which isn't the best choice maybe, but Rose loses two straight falls in this and STILL ends up extremely protected. Very good stuff.

There is a DeBeers/Psicosis/Ryuma Go vs Billy Jack Haynes/Rey Mysterio Jr./CW Bergstrom match on youtube. It is from 1994. It is a fancam. It is 35 minutes. Can someone please watch this thing so I don't have to?

It's probably Dibiase at Survivor Series 90 for me, but I didn't start watching wrestling until around then.

It took a few years of lurking before I felt comfortable to talk here and that's after being on DVDVR for years and years. Now everyone wished I talked less.

In this note, he probably is. John Olerud it is. Let's move on!

Muraco vs Windham Flordia, 1980. This is an awesome 3 minute mauling. It's probably the most intense I've ever seen Don and I immediately want to see more of his stuff from 1980 Florida.

Savage makes this.

They keep investing and investing and investing over the next two years.

Kotter is all about vaudeville style wordplay. It's aged amazingly well

I would like to see Parv talk about Tony Danza for 3000 words. I would like Johnny to talk about Welcome Back Kotter next.

They turned Hughes with JYD

And the stuff that was good, like the nose-breaking angle with Steamboat stumbled into the stalking Madusa angle.

Do you ever look back and then see where we are now and wonder what the hell happened?

There were a lot of quick changes in direction too. Watts didn't really let things finish well before switching things about. I wish we had a long run of Arn Anderson challenging Sting, for instance. As a kid, the switch to Watts really turned me off. Flying Brian was my favorite wrestler at the time and I was really into the Dangerous Alliance.

It's hard to tell from the TV who was successful or not since from watching it you'd believe that almost every guy was getting over, especially Master G and Snowman. When exactly did Reed turn face. Snowman vs Jake was June 86 and I thought it was after that, but it's been a while.

With Reed, wasn't he sort of the last resort? He was a heel (and a great JYD foil) until all the other guys failed, and once he turned face Vince pretty much snatched him up? Or is my timeline off in my head?