Matt D

My general feeling is that the big draw in Europe at that time was "The WWF," not any specific talent.

I've watched a lot of 84 Piper lately, which doesn't help matters, even if Deano's probably watched a bunch too.

Totally subjective. You had to go and toss Demolition in it though! I can respect that you feel that's a part of the act that isn't over the top. It strikes me as trying too hard, but even that is better than not trying at all. I honestly think that the blandness of elements of the roster are such that he doesn't need to go nearly as far to stand out. I also don't think the roster is nearly as bland as it was a few years ago.

By doing something fundamental soundly and logically in a sea of shitty heel-in-peril wrestling instead of doing kahraazzzzy jazz hands in a sea of boring guys who do nothing to stand out? I don't totally see the comparison here. Everyone else that cares about Demolition cares about the shtick. I care about other things. Ambrose is mostly Shtick. I think he does it mostly well. I think he goes over the top sometimes and the hand things are one of those times.

Moreover, they wasted the brawling on HHH vs Brock when it's really what Cena vs Rock needed.

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 11, 1992 (9,000) Owen Hart & Koko B. Ware defeated Skinner & Barry Horowitz when Koko pinned Horowitz The Mountie pinned Tito Santana WWF Tag Team Champions Natural Disasters defeated the Beverly Brothers Shawn Michaels pinned Virgil Razor Ramon pinned Randy Savage after Ric Flair came ringside (Razor's MSG debut) Bret Hart pinned Papa Shango The Undertaker defeated WWF World Champion Ric Flair via disqualification WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 28, 1992 (12,300) Lance Cassidy pinned the Brooklyn Brawler Crush defeated Repo Man via submission with the head vice Bob Backlund pinned Rick Martel with a small package (Backlund's MSG return after more than an 8 year absence) The Nasty Boys defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification when Dibiase shoved Jerry Saggs off the top The Big Bossman pinned Kamala after Kamala accidentally hit Kimchee; after the bout, Kamala chased Harvey Wippleman and Kimchee backstage Max Moon defeated Terry Taylor The Undertaker defeated Nailz at the 12-minute mark with the chokeslam Looking at this, why do people think the second card drew so much more than the first? Is it just the Thanksgiving proximity (which was the 26th)? Did that matter still in 1992? Backlund? I guess the Nasty Boys turn just happened, but I hardly think that was THAT hot an angle. the first card had Savage vs Ramon and Flair vs Undertaker, plus Bret. It was probably just the Thanksgiving weekend thing, right? EDIT: there's a bump like that for that weekend in MSG compared to the last show in 1990 and 1991 too, so that's probably the case, card be damned.

I have no clue why that bothers people. I think it's a distinct, neat part of his act I don't buy it. It comes off as him trying to come up with a distinct, neat part for his act instead of actually being a distinct, neat part of his act.

It was an okay segment but Ambrose's weird hand motions as he entered the ring drove me nuts.

I assume it's a verb form of asperger's like how the verb form for my ADHD is.. hey, now that they're supposedly doing medical tests on Sami Callihan, do people think they'll put him with Brodie Lee as Bray Wyatt's minions? Because that'd be pretty amazing.

He knows a lot about Roller Derby too!

Madusa got a "Where are they now" feature on wwe.com in the last year

That's true, of course, but how many people out there can be expected to vote on that stuff?

The thing with Watts is that he usually had a guy booking for him and he just cleaned the stuff up.

What's most important? Varied offense? Focused offense? Offense that fits a character? Offense that looks believable? Innovative offense? Is Lawler punching someone for ten minutes better than Nova doing a powerbomb where he elbow drops someone in the groin at the same time? Which guy has better offense?

Nah. Warrior, Johnny Ace. The guy I've never heard anything against was Bobby Eaton. Even Steamboat has a few guys who aren't big fans like Honky. But Eaton, I'm scratching my head and can't find one reference of a guy speaking badly about him. Johnny ace is pretty bad, and it's really varied how bad he is. Warrior, on the other hand, most people say that he was quiet and just kept to himself.

Is Vader the most universally reviled guy in shoots?

Buddy/Ed vs Skip Young/Jerry Oates 2/3 falls match, 2/18/78 first fall: Basic early stuff. Babyface would get on a hold (generally a headlock). Heel would try to get out. Babyface would snap it right back on. This worked with the tags too. Wiskowski would tag in and Oates would eat him right up with a headlock. Buddy's great on the apron as a presence trying desperately to find a way to help out his partner. He also does a lot if really interesting stuff working from the bottom and trying to fight out desperately. This is heel in peril stuff, down to the hope spots but they make it really interesting and it also works more because we're looking at vulnerable champs vs plucky underdogs here. Rose and Wiskowski are portrayed as extremely savvy but lacking the zing of the faces. Young does this delayed dropkick which is a thing of almost impossible beauty. They keep things interesting and varied with the heels using all sorts of different ways of escape or get a temporary advantage only to get immediately shut down through simple fundamentals and superior, singleminded speed. Buddy inally takes over on Young with sheer persistance, but they do a good job drawing it out. Some nasty double stomps from both heels. Young fights back and gets through the legs for a hot little tag. Oates clears house until he goes for the turnbuckle running headlock takeover, which he'd done twice already. Wiskowski reverses it into a belly to back and that's the first fall. Fun stuff. Almost all faces but they were kept doing really simple things while the heels made the match. The finish was foreshadowed well and logical. second fall: Wiskowski has a great flying knee. Nice reversal of the first fall as Buddy desperately tries to hold on a front facelook. Great facial expressions here and a very strong sense of fight. Wiskowski distracts the ref and Rose grabs the trunks to pull Oates back to his corner. Solid heeling. They're getting so much out of so little. Oates gets well built hope spots but the heels do quick tags and cut him off. This fall is all front facelock but it's really well worked. Second half of the second fall has the heels trying to put Oates away with cradles and thudding offense but he manages to makes it to the corner and Young blows Rose away with headbutts. Oates comes back in way too early. Fun but a little weird finish with Wikowski missing a kneedrop off the top in order to try to break up a pin and Oates using a spinning toe-hold to force the submission. I'm not sure he ever tagged in but I suppose that's what the heel gets for trying to cheat so brazenly. third fall: Oates starts on Wiskowski's knee but Buddy interferes enough he can break it up. Oates tags out and the match moves back to faces beating on Buddy. Highlight is his selling of an Oates Atomic drop. Fairly back and forth in this fall until the heels get Young in the corner and swarm him. Wiskowsi has this weird lanky offense including a body drop and rapid fire falling headbutts to the arm, which ultimately look just cool enough that you buy them stopping the match due to damage to Young's shoulder. Ref calls the match. This was good stuff but very much a "TV match." the third fall was there to put over the heel champs at the end, but I think the faces come out of this looking pretty strong, past, y'know, Young being injured.

The thing I love about Luger's is how into it he gets when a rumor is mentioned. "What! Is that what they say? I don't use the internet. Tell me what they say. that's crazy. wow." It's pretty funny.

I just thought it fit hilariously into some of the overblown discussion. Apologies if I ruffled feathers by not being clear it was satirical.

Aw, man I was just trying to lure Dylan back into the note. He absolutely wasn't talking about this board at all. I was just having a laugh. He was talking about some sort of heavily political thing, which I tried to make clear with the drone comment (his post before this was about drones, seriously). I was just goofing! Sorry. Unless he was actually talking about the board, in which case I'm an ass. But I don't think that was the case (about Dylan. I may well be an ass). I did toss the link at him right after I posted it to give him a chance to tell me I was a doofus and to edit it for whatever reason. I don't think there was any bad faith. It was a joke. I think this is generally the most reasonably open place to discuss this stuff we could hope for.

The biggest take away i got from it was that he, more than anyone else I've come across, I think, saw wrestling as a job.

I remember it from his shoot, but I found it here too: http://www.wwe.com/classics/wherearetheynow/mikerotundo "If you want to talk about Mike Rotundo's career you have to begin with The Destroyer. Born Dick Beyer, The Destroyer was a legendary masked wrestler, internationally known for his brutal rivalries with the likes of "Crippler" Ray Stevens, Giant Baba and Mil Máscaras. He was also a Syracuse University alumnus — the same college a 20-year-old Mike Rotundo was attending when the two men crossed paths. "The Destroyer spoke at one of our wrestling banquets," Rotundo recalled. "He had just returned from wrestling in Japan and he asked me if I ever thought of getting into wrestling. I told him I knew nothing about it." At this time in his life, Mike Rotundo had no interest in WWE. An incredible athlete, the Florida native was a standout in both amateur wrestling and football at his alma mater. He had spent his youth infatuated with these sports, but, with The Destroyer's urging, he began to watch WWE on television whenever he could. Impressed by young Superstars like Bob Backlund and Bruno Sammartino, Rotundo decided to give wrestling a shot. Immediately after graduating, Rotundo found himself in Germany being trained by The Destroyer in a rock-solid ring. After two weeks of intensive schooling, Rotundo was competing against young Americans and European veterans all across the country."

Depends on what the reasons were for Rotonda being let go/quitting each time, I suppose. If there was acrimony, it's a bit more curious. If it was just regular business, then it probably isn't an unusual thing. 1.) Mike got nuts on the road and went home. Barry freaked out in response and went home too. Mike came back. Barry didn't. 2.) WCW offered him a shit ton of money. To me the most interesting thing about Rotunda's career is how he got into wrestling.

"I can understand ideologues. To some degree I even understand the party line crowd, even though I find it abhorrent. But I will never understand those so obsessively committed to a single man that all criticism of him, no matter how sensible or severe, is shouted down or attacked as if it is innately heretical to question him." Dylan, on facebook. Sure his post before it was about drone warfare but we all know what he's really talking about here.

Yeah, so i need to see that goofy Darsow angle.