Matt D

Honestly, I think they could probably market Swagger vs Del Rio at this point higher than either Orton or Henry. It has the sort of exploitative story that'll get coverage while the other matches wouldn't.

All Gorilla really got was free rein to shit on all the wrestlers he wanted.

WWF/AJPW - Jumbo/Haku vs Perfect/Martel - 4/13/90 I have my doubts. If this was a super fun match I probably would have heard about it already, but let's go. Well, if you ever wanted to hear Mel Phillips announce Jumbo, there you go. Martel + Hennig is such a cool team, even the WWF heel versions. Haku is weirdly short. Martel and Hennig clear house with a double dropkick and a double clothesline before Hennig starts on Jumbo. Jumbo hits a boot out of the corner and Hennig does seventeen rotations on the sell of the big knee. It's nice to see Perfect bump for Haku too, big kicks and chops and the best shoulder breaker you will EVER see. Then a hugely high dropkick that gets another rotation sell. Double clothesline takes his head off, and he propels himself up so high for Jumbo's slam. Martel interferes to break up a stretch and Hennig takes over with strikes as the fans boo. Double team punches and kicks int he corner. Then the snapmare/head whip which impresses the announcers. Clumsy punch block and a big slam to allow the tag to Haku who hits a huge kick. His stuff just looks awesome here. He misses the running sommersault senton and we get the drag to the corner and tag to Martel. Couple of slams and a bunch of quick elbows, but the difference in complexity between the offense Martel used in the last match and this one are nuts. He does hit a rana into a pin. Hennig does a bunch of punch/kicks as Haku tries to fight back but a boot rake ends that. Then we get the assisted slingshot suplex by hennig for two. Martel tries for another rana and eats the top turnbuckle hard. Hennig breaks up the hot tag attempt though and this is a pretty good heat segment. Nice dropkick by Hennig but it's amazing how much both guys dumbed down their act. Double slam which leads to a well fought Boston Crab. Jumbo breaks it up and then does his hand raise thing. Hennig comes in and does a stretch of his own on Haku. Jumbo distracts the ref and Haku punches out but Martel jumps in and takes over. He hits a suplex and knee drop for at two count. Martel and Hennig are working really well as a unit. They do another hope spot where Haku fights back out of clubbers with a nasty blow but Martel rakes the eyes from the corner and then comes in as the ref is distracted. Haku gets his legs up on a second rope splash and they rush for the corners. Jumbo clears house with a back body drop whip and slams on Martel and then Hennig. Then it breaks down with all four guys in. The heels get tossed into each other then eat a bit Haku kick and flying knee. Jumbo hits the Saito Suplex and gets the win. Pretty good (And surprising) southern tag. Haku played a really good FIP and Hennig bumped well for everyone.

Flair/Martel vs Jumbo/Tenryu A war between Jumbo and Martel over armwork to begin. Martel is really good at working from the bottom and trying to fight out. We get the same with Flair which doesn't look quite as good but is still fun. It culminates with chops in the corner by Jumbo and a tag to Tenryu. This gives us a chopfest with Tenryu getting the best of it and Flair retreating to the corner. Flair hit a shin breaker out of a headlock and Martel starts doing his great varied offense on the leg. Within a span of a minute hes doing leg yanks, stomps, elbows, kicks, a knee, and whatever else. But Tenryu counters only to get countered back and out into a ... Inverted deathlock? Is that what you call that, then a modified STF. It's amazing how much stuff Martel can just throw out like it's the smoothest thing in the world. Tenryu sneaks out again and makes the tag. Jumbo beats the crap out of Martel til he hits a flash spinning crossbody off the second rope and tags flair in. Americans dominate for a bit but Jumbo comes back with strikes and out chops Flair again, hits a back body drop and Flair begs off. Tenzin in, chopping away, but Flair counters with a kick on another back body drop attempt. Martel hits a cool punch as Flair tosses Tenry into the corner and then tags in, clubbering on the back. Martel does some good and varied back offense. Flair hits a back suplex and forgets about the back to put the figure four on. Boo. Flair reaches for martel, gets the tag and he puts on a quick figure four. Tenryu lifts the leg up and forces a pin attempt which is neat sort of battle. Martel gets the tag, but flair eats a sloppy small package on a figure four attempt and we get a hot tag to Jumbo. Big clearing house clothesline. Fight for a pile driver but Flair gets to the rope and they go back and forth for a sec til Tenryu hooks the sleeper. Flair REACHES for the tag in the sleeper andit's pretty great. Martel finally gets it and pummels Jumbo in the corner. Jumbo reverses a whip and Martel gets backdropped. Another HUGE clothesline. tag to Tenryu. Big double suplex. Another back suplex. Big back brain kick. A tag and a huge double strike off the rope.This sets up Jumbo hitting the pile drive but just for a two. Neckbreaker for another two. Tag in to Tenryu but Martel comes off the rope and nails a lightning forearm, then takes him from pillar to post and finally into Flair's knee on the outside. Flair in. Big suplex. Martel in for the knee drop. And the story is really clear here. Tenryu is the weak link and Flair/Martel take over whenever he's in. If there's a secondary story it's that Flair plays dirtier than Martel and he finally gives in and they get on the same page. Flair assists the the Martel slingshot splash but just for a two. Martel hits a rib breaker and then sells the leg (awesome insertion) for a second as he hops to the ropes before hitting the huge Flying Body Press. Jumbo breaks up the pin and it breaks down. He hits his big knee on Flair who came in to leaving Martel and Tenryu in the ring. Tenryu gets the better of it with another back brain kick. Martel ends up outside and posted, then leaped upon and there is brawling outside. Tenryu gets in at the last second and that's the match. Decent story. Fun work. Neat to see Flair and Martel team. It's not a super match but I'm glad I saw it.

There doesn't seem to be a bunch online.

I remember liking the stuff with Cactus when I saw it a couple of years ago. But you've seen it much more recently than I. Which of the two had the run in memphis vs Lawler? Canterbury?

Did you dislike the mini feud with Cactus Jack and the the Lethal Lottery match when they were put up against each other (which surprised the hell out of me)? I thought that stuff aged pretty well and they have one or two good matches with Scorpio/Bagwell. I haven't seen any of their WWF stuff in forever though.

I think Papa Shango was pretty over until Bret beat him on TV. The live crowds were full of kids scared shitless.

I want to know the answer to this. Surely someone's seen stuff.

I'll definitely rewatch the Lawler tag. I didn't love the Lawler/Dundee tag from later in the set, but I tend to love Lawler. Lawler vs Kerry is in my top 20. I just think his best AWA-related matches might have occurred in Memphis.

I will second the notion that Payne is one of the most frustrating things in 1993 as well.

Who was a bigger WWF star? Duggan or Beefcake. To me, Beefcake being in the WWE HOF is a no brainer. He was a long time tag team champ, one of the top babyfaces in 87-90 and was super over. Sure, he was terrible in the ring but that doesn't matter. I'm not sure which of the two had the bigger feuds, Duggan had Sheik and Volkoff, Andre, Bravo, Haku, Savage, Earthquake, Slaughter, Nasty Boys, and Yoko, basically. Beefcake had Valentine, Honky, Bass, Rude, Savage, Dibiase, Martel, Perfect.

I'm not even sure I noticed the crowd in that match. I did in the Hogan + High Flyers six man, so it's not like I never do, but a crowd might only work as a positive to me and not a negative. Neither here nor there, but when JvK hits the hour long Bock vs Hennig match, I want him to break it down with all of his academic trope tools. I'd want to read that.

King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter (Cage Match) (4/21/85) is sitting at #3 for me. I have the second Rockers vs Rose/Somers cage match, which does all the things the first one did right but fixes the brutally egregious structure issues at #10 currently. Of what you've seen so far, I've got East-West vs High Flyers (Cage) as my working 50.

I get why people would like the Cage match, absolutely. It's not like the Rockers/Loverboys one from 86 which is an actively terrible match due to the creative decisions they made. This just isn't much of a match. It's a spectacle. Guys beat on each other without much rhyme or reason. Sure it's full of hate, but there just isn't direction to it. They don't use the hate and the violence to do anything interesting. To me, hate and violence are means to be used create a good match and not ends unto themselves. There is no difference to me between violence/stiffness/blood and spots/movez. They're all things to be used to tell a story. Just like selling and bumping and stooging and everything else. Just a tool. If used well, excellent. But I'm not going to rate a match highly against other great matches just because they're used at all and because they make me mark out in the moment. Obviously, other people feel differently. That's ok. It's like cotton candy with broken glass in it. I like story. It's not there. I won't fault anyone for liking the Da Crusher/Gagne cage match because it's visceral and violent. Some people dig that. It might even have been the right match for the moment. That doesn't, to me, make it better than matches that have better structures and more interesting narratives even if it was the RIGHT match for the time. I'm well past the point of worrying, Parv. Wrestling isn't objective. I value things differently than other people do and like to think I back up my opinions for the most part. I'm consistent if nothing else. I'm glad you enjoy reading the views and I hope they at least make sense and you can track them. I have two cage matches in my working top ten and they are the two that tell the best story and also two that use the cage to tell a better story with better execution than at least 140 other matches.

My rankings for these matches 1.) Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Jim Brunzell (3/15/84) 2.) Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Billy Robinson (3/11/84) 3.) Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Blackjack Mulligan & Jerry Lawler (3/4/84) 4.) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel (12/8/83) 5.) Da Crusher & Greg Gagne vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Kaissey (Cage Match) (3/25/84) 6.) Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Steve O & Buck Zumhofe (2/3 Falls) (4/15/84) 7.) Crusher Blackwell vs. Da Crusher (No DQ) (2/26/84) The Martel finish really didn't bug me so much since it felt like a fluke, a flash thing which Martel immediately popped up from pissed off at. He got surprised and Bock got his shoulders down for three. That said, there are a bunch of better Martel matches even on this disc. Jumbo vs Brunzell is sitting at my #39. That's the only one on here in my top 50. It also came in #6 on my Disc 3 in my first rankings though i retroactively have Martel vs Brad below it, so there are matches I liked more to come on the disc. Crusher vs Da Crusher is my working #142. The 2/3 falls match is my working #127. The cage match is my working #122. The only match I'm going to rewatch out of these is the Lawler tag. I could see that edging up, though probably not because "lawler missed a top rope legdrop and hit twenty fist drops in a row." How he sold in the bear-hug might push it up though. i need to see it again. Like I said, I thought it was the best Blackwell performance on the set but I have 5 Blackwell matches in my working top 50 and none of them are this.

Virgil was pretty good by late 92, including some of the best jobber matches of that year where he was just tossing guys around, but he really shines in 98-99 on Saturday Night.

I'm pretty sure I liked the first Martel vs Bock more than the second, but then I thought the test of strength was an epic thing and you guys couldn't get over the homoerotic camera angles. Likely one of those "watching in a group" things. Regardless, they have three great matches to come. Johnny obviously read my DVDVR post from July on Crusher vs Crusher and stole my Popeye/Bluto comment. I've been Menciaed. Part of me wants to reframe my recent friendly disagreements with Will in the context of Rush. I thought the Lawler/Mulligan tag was the best Blackwell spotlight match on the set. Johnny is easily the world's best Billy Graham in 1987/Mongo but Will/Shoe is a pretty good two man team during the Jumbo/Robinson match. I liked the Brunzell match more than you guys did, and you liked the Brunzell match a lot. I will be SHOCKED if you guys don't love the cage match even though it did nothing at all for me. It's my #122. It's all violence and next to no story, but the violence is some of the best on the set. Hey, there's a call out that is actually to me. And yeah, i hate cheating babyfaces, except for in one or two matches on the set when they're really clever about it (I think there's a Fabs vs Saito/Bock match which is great because it's really smartly done). I can't get my head into a 1984 Minneapolis Reprobate who beats his wife to appreciate Gagne on that level, I guess. It just feels like Greg Gagne overcompensating and trying to get whatever heat he can because he's fucking Greg Gagne. And I like him in parts of this set, but not in any of the BABYFACE REVENGE matches. Actually, there is one Greg Unleashed match I like a lot. I forget which one it is though. It's fairly late into the 80s. It's Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens vs. Greg Gagne & Curt Hennig (6/13/85). Surreal match.

Looks like he had 7 Superstars matches in 87 between his debut in Sept and the end of the year and another 7 between January and June of 88, with five matches on Challenge in that time period in 87 and 6 in that time period in 88. 5 on PTW in 87. 6 in 88 (with #7 being the July match from MSG where Andre beats him).

Mid-South's failure due to the oil crisis? The MEGATREND as Watts calls it. Is that face-saving myth or is it true?

I think they have a pretty strong array of faces too: Cena, ADR, Jericho, BD/Kane, Ryback, Mysterio/Cara, Sheamus, Orton, Rock. with Miz, Kofi, Santino, Clay/Tensai and whoever I'm forgetting under them.

Speaking of that, he has one of my favorite WWF squashes ever. Bam Bam Bigelow vs Terry Zeller from 5/9/93 Wrestling Challenge. It's out there on dailymotion There's a 30 second span in the match where he is the most amazing wrestler in the world, who does the most amazing things. Ultimately, though it's the sort of thing that just leads to the disappointing mantle, I suppose, since there aren't enough examples of him pulling that stuff together when it really mattered.

Michaels' best year might be 86 cept for that shitty cage match.

Thanks, you're a gem.

The only talking point I am giving you guys is for Jumbo vs Robinson and that it felt like I was watching an old bickering couple fight. No one else seemed to feel that way.