Matt D

Frigging Angle. Uh, but in general, yeah, after that I think I'm done arguing about Sting except for in the meta way, because figuring out why we feel like we do is way more interesting to me.

FWIW Lawler uses that same joke on the 7/24 Superstars.

In June 93, right around the time that they switched the graphics for Superstars and Wrestling Challenge and added Savage to Mania, I think there was a sense business was down and they were trying to respond. All American had much more of an "identity" than in years past, and Heenan and Savage pushed their shows on other shows. They were also going out of their way to hype big matches on their shows. Traditionally if there was going to be a spotlight match on a syndi show, they'd do a quick interview with both wrestlers right before the end the week before. They shifted that to a quick and dramatic "NEXT WEEK" promo that actually made things feel important. That's how they set up the Doink/Crush blow off, the Money Inc/Steiners blow-offs, Crush vs Yoko, Bret vs Bam Bam, etc.

Nasty Boys had some really quite good matches vs Money Inc in late 92 in WWF after they turned face. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a good match vs the Headshrinkers too.

All they need to know is what their audience knows and would respond to. Vince has never exactly created nuanced foreigners.

Kind of what I was saying and kind of not. There are levels of availability. You, tape trader, man in the loop, show-goer, acquaintance of Konnan, were monastery trained. I, on the other hand, can watch a million billion hours of wrestling on YOUTUBE and DAILYMOTION right now. And if I wanted to. I could buy a WHOLE SEASON of something for pennies compared to what it probably would have cost me 20 years ago. With a whole lot less effort.

Here's the thing: The majority of WON readers thought the majority of WWF product in the 80s was boring. The AWA wasn't alone, at least in terms of hardcore fans. In turn, I suspect that a majority of 80s JCP "non-hardcore" fans thought that the WWF was boring as well, since they were JCP fans and you tend to like what you like and hate the enemy. Lots of people thought the AWA was boring in 1986-87. The reality is that *few* fans didn't, given their attendance tanking and the WWF frankly eating up their entire territory for good by that point. :/ So... it's really nothing to get bent about. That we can find 30-50 AWA matches from 1986-87 and say, "Hey... these are good / watchable / damn fine matches" is cool. Same for the WWF. John I still think a lot of it is our tastes changing. I know that a lot of the stuff I like now I wouldn't like ten years ago.

There are a few youtube channels with a lot of stuff: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIkg6oQTM4...grid&view=0 http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm1Agigv7k...grid&view=0 For instance.

Would have you liked it more if it was Luke Gallows?

I did a quick search before saying that. But you're right. I was probably thinking about Will again. I think you like Flair WAY too much though! So there. ... No I've got nothing. I'm just going to blame Will for everything from now on. -Part of why I don't want to get back into this is that I don't even LIKE Kane all that much. There were just some pretty extreme statements bandied around last time.

* The Windham series (Battle of the Belts, Worldwide and Crockett Cup) * The Morton series (TBS match, Pro match, World Pro cage match, and Horsemen DVD cage match) 1987 isn't as strong as the other Flair years during the 80s because he was working through an injury and was put in lots of 8-man tags. These are good choices and it'd be a fun argument. I'd have to rewatch a lot of the Windham stuff though. I've seen the Morton series more recently. My gut says that the gradual narrative told in Bock/Hennig and just how they switch up the individual narratives of the matches put it on top but it'd be an argument.

Explained it in the other note but I was getting Loss and Will confused. Which I occasionally do here. Sorry! my main point was that we really didn't need to do this again.

Yeah, this was me. I must have been getting your disdain for Demolition and Will's for Kane confused. And for that I am terribly sorry. Though at least you're in decent company. I was JUST looking this thread up too, but you see why we don't have to go around this circle again, right?

And lo, the circle continues.

I get the public perception but Bock was frigging awesome in 86-87. He has the Flair match. He has some great stuff with Larry. He has the Debeers match I love. He has the match where he is a super god face against Hansen. He has the Hennig series which are brilliant. I'm curious. What does Flair have in 86-87 that stand up to the Hennig series?

Where would you like the conversation to move? Lead the way. I just don't want it to go back to Kane. We've been there already. Maybe seven months ago. You said the same things. People contested them because you went in with SUCH extremes. You didn't give a damn. So no, I don't want to revisit that conversation. How about we regroup. Meltzer has always cared about what Wrestlers thought about their peers. I really, truly think a lot of his views developed like they did through talking to Flair in the 80s. And a lot of those viewpoints impacted the evolution of our "community's" perspective over the years, but ... Actually, alright, what about this. The sheer amount of footage out there now and the ease of accessibility is sort of like the Reformation. At one point Meltzer and a few others were reading to us in Latin since none of us knew it. Now we have the means to make decisions for ourselves and every now and again Dylan goes on the Wrestling Classics board (or even better now, the WON board) and posts up his theses.

Duly noted. Let's move on.

The AA looks like crap and always has. I don't think the execution of one signature move, especially one that's always been pretty over, is really what we're talking about here on either extreme.

His peers have an entirely different view. I think that aspect has to be acknowledged. I personally like him in once in a while small doses. As a footnote maybe? I'm not sure that's entirely useful to what we discuss around here?

Actually. WWF @ San Francisco, CA - Cow Palace - June 9, 1990 (8,400) Koko B. Ware defeated the Genius The Warlord defeated Brady Boone (sub. for the Red Rooster) Jim Brunzell defeated Al Perez Haku defeated Paul Roma The Big Bossman defeated Ted Dibiase WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition Smash & Crush (w/ Ax) defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart Dusty Rhodes & Sapphire (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Randy Savage & Sensational Sherri (w/ Brother Love) They actually ran it quite a bit through August. Including once on a Superstars taping dark match so it probably exists taped.

I really hate that cage match, Dylan.

The Steiner Screwdriver just showed up for the first time. Heenan: "Wow... that was.. that was like a vertical pileplex!"

Aha. I missed the classics background so I was left scratching my head. I can see Patera being "remembered" as a mid-carder.

This is obviously why Sting got betrayed so many times.