Matt D

and do note that I wasn't necessarily saying it was Jesse so much as "someone who caused 2% of the WWF 80s boom vs someone who caused 80% of his far smaller territory's success." Jesse and Buddy just sort of seemed to vaguely fit. I'm more interested in the general question, than the specifics, so if you can plug in someone better, please be my guest. Arn scored really high in his grouping on the poll, no?

I know this is going to be laughed out of the room but Jesse does claim to have set up the Universal tapings due to connections he had through hollywood.

I knew I was forgetting someone. For a minute I thought it was Hayes but the timing didn't work out. yeah, Piper sort of kills that argument for Jesse. but What if you run the math and decide that Jesse is somehow responsible for 2% of the success. I'm not sure you would (I actually think someone who did so much of the back office managing like Finkel might be worth more than Jesse, his ring announcing be damned). But let's say you did. How much does 2% of THAT success compare to the sort of success someone else like.. and I hate bringing it up but it's on my mind, Buddy Rose had elsewhere, where he was worth a huge percentage of the success in his territory? (and I'm sorry if that paragraph made no sense).

Part of me wonders if Jesse is beloved because he was somehow smarkier in his comments. Or maybe he was just anti-Hogan at a time where it seemed like no one else in the rest of the country was anti-Hogan except for Dave and his ilk. As if he was their mouthpiece on some level. Maybe that's reaching too far. I think he's entertaining, but part of why I like him is because, as a kid, I always felt "hey, Jesse has a point!" which has nothing to do with him being effective, just with me being contrary. I don't know, how important/extraordinary/influential/striking, relatively, is the WWF's success in the 80s? I think it's something of a valid question?

For Monsoon, I think it'd be worth looking at his promotional/managerial roles. As an announcer, his main skill, often to the detriment of matches where it wasn't needed, was to make the really, really crappy WWF mid 80s prelim matches watchable by being engaging and amusing. I wonder if people wouldn't have so willingly sat through Swede Hansen vs Mike Sharp to get to a two minute Hogan promo if Monsoon wasn't there to keep things entertaining. Is that reason enough to be in the HOF as an announcer? I doubt it but he deserves credit for it.

Alright. Moved into the new house and have been able to get on the exercise bike with SOME frequency, so I've made it to JUST before Wrestlemania in 08 ECW on hulu. Dusty has the book and It really is a lot of fun. Thoughts: The Chavo/Punk feud was great. It amazes me how much they put Chavo over. Two or three wins in a row. The matches start to blend together a little, but I think the one where Chavo won the title was best as it had two or three overlapping stories and really good execution. At No Way Out, when Punk hits the three amigos, the fans DESTROY him. The Gulf of Mexico match was fun and the Punk as a Mariachi moment is all but forgotten, but it was a great surprise. Punk in Chicago vs Vis was a cute little match. I imagine for people who had followed him since the start of his career, this stuff was a lot of fun to watch at the time. Kofi gets his start in here. Fans LOVE interaction. They love it. They want to be part of the show. Kofi was built in with the claps and the Boom Drop, and they got over REALLY quickly. The Colin Delaney thing is funny, if only because the highlight reel for him after facing Vis, Henry, Kane and Khali was pretty awesome, as was the tape being added to his body after each match. The moment where he swings the chair for the first time to save Dreamer worked pretty well. And he even got some chants vs Chavo. The Flair show was well done, down to the WWE Mobile exclusive at the end with Flair thanking Punk for the moment. Used well, a little Flair adds a ton to the proceedings. Punk was like a kid in a candy store during the tag, and the flip flop with Flair doing the babyface role as the heels were playing Flair was great. It's amazing how far Miz has come from here. I'm not saying he's even a top WWE guy but he's definitely come a long way in the last four years, just in presence and smoothness. I've been mostly tuning out when Miz and Morrison do things, I'll admit. I've also been fast forwarding through the diva stuff for the most part. I think my favorite match so far has been Jesse/Festus/Punk vs Miz/Morrison/Shelton. Some clever bits of layout where they play with perceptions, a good heat segment on Punk with a few false comebacks, a good hot tag and a nice finishing sequence. It's worth tracking down.

There is but he's the biggest problem with the product, but that's an issue of execution, not concept.. well and Vince being nuts. And regardless of that, it was a style that lasted twenty years, at least, through two booms. I don't think you can dismiss it so easily.

I'm sure this is a silly question, but humor me. If Ventura didn't define the role of the weekly heel announcer, who did? I'm trying to think from the various stuff I've seen. Even Ole was a face when he was an announcer.

Are 80s yearbooks really doable? There's just so much more content when the territories are active.

Bobby Eaton was pretty damn good in 1980/1 Memphis. I think he was a better promo then than he'd be years later too. This is because less is more and athleticism is a crutch.

What came to mind immediately was his feelings about the MSG Demos match. It's an awesome ten minute match right before their face turn and Eadie especially gives JUST enough. Well, Michaels felt then and has pointed out since that he thinks they didn't sell nearly enough for them, but what the hell is 1988 Shawn Michaels going to do to intimidate Bill Eadie and Barry Darsow. On the other hand in 96 he could (and apparently did) threaten to have Vader fired if he didn't loosen up.

Honestly, I don't know if he was professional so much as he didn't have the clout to get his way and express himself.

I've seen tremendously little Pat Patterson (but I love hearing him talk on DVDs/Legends roundtables). He gets a lot of credit for putting together more story based WWF big matches (Royal Rumbles, but also matches like Warrior vs Hogan). Do his matches from the 70s/early 80s that have survived show a lot of narrative elements?

Well he was only above average. What did you expect?

Break it off and we can regroup and refocus?

Should we just refine it to the first few years of guys' careers?

It's a good match. Mark looks good with his sort of duck and dodge stance. His mannerisms are pretty good (especially looking to Paul E). His chain wrestling isn't even that bad. The story is smart. For instance, the shine period: Mark tries to out power Luger, gets outpowered and shifted into the corner, clean rope break. Mark tries to out out wrestle Luger, gets out wrestled, clean rope break, tries to bully him and gets hip tossed and throws a fit, shifts Luger into the corner and hits him to take over for a little bit, playing to the whole of the match so far. He hits some intense looking punches. They do some back and forth and Luger gets back on top with a body press and goes to the arm. That's all good stuff, executed well. Mark was pretty good in there. He still had crappy kicks, but he was also super athletic when he did stuff like leap frogs or lightning big boots. The mid match arm-work is nice because it gave old school a little more meaning. It didn't make any sense for heel taker to do arm work after all. Finish is a bit of a mess, I will grant you. I think at the very least the opening segment was really quite good.

Mean Mark had a really fun match vs Luger in 90.

I think at Survivor Series either Zeke or Mason Ryan(I forget which. they are interchangeable to me), had some segment where they did 3-4 slams (or press slams) in a row, and it was just starting to move the crowd, actually.

Hayes is actually a super fun color commentator before 91 or so. He starts to slip after that. The very best thing about Hayes is that he'd watch the match and pull together a narrative which had NOTHING to do with what was going on in the ring. But he'd work really hard to lace it together and it'd make sense. It just wouldn't be what you were watching. He was a really solid storyteller, just.. a bit askew. Highly entertaining.

I like Kane more than the next guy but he could have never had the Mayweather match.

Heels did Gorilla Press in Mid South, both Volkoff into the ribbreaker and Butch Reed

Also, I hate saying it, I really do, but I feel like at this point, with all the discussion about ownership of teams and salaries and evil empires and what not, we have to talk about the comparison to the BEHIND THE SCENES elements of wrestling, which is, honestly, more than half of what we talk about and follow.

You guys have gone far and wide with this. It's TERRIBLY frustrating that while wrestling SHOULD be better than reality, it's not.

That is super harsh on Christian. Yeah, he didn't draw, but each of the Orton matches were different and in my mind each was worth watching.