Matt D

I think Xenophobia in 95 wasn't a terribly bad way to go. It was just piss poor execution. The fact Bobby Heenan "sold" a part of Worldwide or whatever was a joke. The fact that Sonny Onoo's name was a bad pun was a joke. The fact that there was never anything really on the line made it pointless. I remember going back and watching a bunch of PPVs on Video in 98 or so and Starrcade 95 really stood out as being different in the Hogan era, but I think my favorite thing then was the triangle match anyway. My main argument is that I don't think some tournament or more sports-feel reasoning behind the PPV would have necessarily done better than blatant xenophobia all things equal, but that the execution of the xenophobia angle was really bad.

I think I'm never going to like either Holly or JBL. There's just too much stuff there. Too many stories. Some build on others and it's all a circle of bullshit probably, but I don't really care enough to dig and debunk each and every one of them. I'm way more content just thinking they're both jerks and assholes and bullies. Not enough time in the day.

The ratings were already up into 95-early 96, pre NWO (though it was Flair/Savage that seemed to pop things, and maybe even the Luger stuff which was pretty compelling in early 96). They had to get those people from somewhere. Do we have Hogan merch figures from 94/95? or any idea of them? I know they pushed his stuff over everyone else's but was anyone buying it? I feel like you could spot the foam fingers in the crowd, at least. I think that by the end of 95 you had lost some of the traditional core WCW/JCP audience due to the Hogan stuff and it had already been partially replaced. That's what I was trying to express there. Regardless, I wonder if something more Crockett Cup-like would have done better or worse than blatant xenophobia.

How could it have been promoted to better appeal to the hybrid core WCW/Hogan audience

I'd rather cheer for a heel being a heel than a face being a heel.

This is probably not worthy of its own note, but I was trolling Graham's site before and came across this: WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Gardens - September 25, 1994 (4,000) Sparky Plugg defeated Steven Dunn Abe Schwartz defeated Jim Powers Owen Hart defeated WWF IC Champion Razor Ramon via count-out WWF Tag Team Champions Shawn Michaels & Diesel defeated Fatu & the 1-2-3 Kid (sub. for Samu) WWF Women's Champion Alundra Blayze defeated Bull Nakano WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Jim Neidhart The Undertaker defeated Yokozuna in a casket match Now, you have to understand. Growing up, I had a friend of the family who was a special needs kid, really loved wrestling, and I looked out for him somewhat, just socially. His uncle worked for Titan and it meant that during the early 90s, I could have probably gone to any show at the Garden comped. It also meant that I got to meet Bret Hart when I was 9 in a Mean Joe Green, just out of the showers, sort of moment. However, between 93 and 98, I just wasn't interested in wrestling at all. I watched Bash at the Beach 96 in scramblevision just to see who the mystery man was (I think the advertising for that PPV is something we don't talk about enough). But past that no wrestling. Basketball cards. Other geekier things. No wrestling. But then I look at some cards that I missed that I KNOW I could have gone to, and yeah, I get frustrated. That's a really cool card. Madusa vs Bull, obviously. They didn't run Bret vs Neidhart one on one as much as you'd think. I love the substitution team of Fatu and Kid, especially against Michaels/Diesel. Owen vs Razor. That card was 5 days before my 13th birthday. I absolutely could have hit it.

Savage has a ton of 6 minute tv matches against guys that on paper sound great in this period (see: Bunkhouse Buck). And they're all formula and frustrating and terrible. Beat down, bodyslam, elbow. This is amazingly good compared to those. Lots of energy. A lot more back and forth and comebacks by Savage. Counters and some good believable brawling. I wouldn't call it a great match, but RELATIVE to most of Savage's 95/first half of 96 TV output it's great.

Down all day for me. This and similar sites are handy for occasions like this: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ I think too many people tried to post the gif of Davey Richards and the Superplex at once in response to the WON awards

Can you imagine if he had been born a decade later and introduced his gimmick during the upsurge of the vampire craze? Talk about being born a decade too soon... Well, 1, they were capitalizing on Blade, and 2, they did have Kevin Thorn.

Gangrel maybe, although it didn't carry him any farther than a European Title shot. He had that awesome music, the entrance with flames, the blood-spitting, his own stable, and the bloodbath routine, and people seemed into it. I can't remember anything that he did, though. He had no memorable matches (maybe a product of the time), and I don't know if he ever got to cut a promo. Anyway, he wasn't carried very far by his gimmick, but he strikes me as a guy who was over solely because of the gimmick he was given rather than because of anything that he did. Someone (And I think it's Christian) tells a story about how they had HUGE plans for Gangrel. They loved the entrance and the look and everything else, but the first time he had a chance to do a major promo, he froze and that was the end of their faith in him.

It's not like Beefcake brought a lot with his promos either. Also, fans love a bully.

Is Beefcake the guy who was most carried by his gimmick? The haircut thing was super over and he has less to back it up than anyone I can think of.

I think there are some DBS/Warlord matches which are more coherent than most of Sid's body of work, but they did have a year to work out the match.

I swear at one point in the last day I heard him call a near fall as "1. 2. Et tu, Brute!" and I have no idea why. But it just slipped in subliminally until I really thought about it.

Sid had (spotty) charisma and look. Couldn't work a fucking lick. John Imagine if he DIDN'T have charisma though.

Obviously we need our own hall of fame.

I've head a bunch of Trongard/Superstar over the last couple of days and it's a weird pairing. I agree that he "sounded" right. And he also seemed to know what he was doing in there. It was his calling. That doesn't mean he was any good, but it sure as hell stands out when put against guys like Sean Mooney.

I knew it as a Jim Butcher novel. I think the nazi site has no space. But it does come up as the first google response with the butcher novel as the second.

Have we talked about Rod Trongard yet?

We're not just talking about a HOF but about a specific one with specific criteria that have been used over the years (for the most part at least). It's just about the only time that we, as a community, really care about drawing when comparing one wrestler to another.

Alright, I can get behind this mentality, but only in this specific situation (though of course, it IS what we're talking about). If we're talking about something other than a HOF, I still don't feel confident with "great matches" as the indicator since opportunity is a huge thing. Tito Santana, for instance, if he had spent his career in Memphis or Crockett or Mid South might have had a slew of much better matches.

WCW Prime has Solie/Dusty for a while in 95 before he had a hissy fit over Angelo Poffo entering the HOF and drunkenly stumbled out of the company. (Or is that just a wrestling myth too) I want to hear some Solie/DDP from Florida for some reason.

I'll say this. Sometimes when working, especially if doing a tedious task, I'll hop on youtube and put on an old PTW or Wrestling Challenge or something and just listen to it while doing stuff. And it's entertaining enough that I enjoy the experience. I couldn't imagine doing that with a Tony Schiovane/David Crockett show (though I'd probably be okay with Mid South so long as Watts was there; he was so frigging entertaining). Wrestling is more than just the matches. Wrestling announcing is more than just calling and explaining and putting in context what happens in the ring.

Isn't "being a better worker" a trait?

Re: Savage Heel turn in 89. On the shows after the Main Event, Savage wrestled Warrior a few times, but then he went RIGHT back to wrestling Bad News Brown on a Canada sweep and then a few other spots. There's one report that Brown played the face in these and that makes sense in Canada I guess? But in NM and CA? To me it's weird they didn't immediately pair him with Beefcake, since it was Brutus who shielded Hogan and told Savage to go away after the Elizabeth incident. There's no footage of face Brown vs Heel Savage, right?