Matt D

Alright, I can get behind this mentality, but only in this specific situation (though of course, it IS what we're talking about). If we're talking about something other than a HOF, I still don't feel confident with "great matches" as the indicator since opportunity is a huge thing. Tito Santana, for instance, if he had spent his career in Memphis or Crockett or Mid South might have had a slew of much better matches.

WCW Prime has Solie/Dusty for a while in 95 before he had a hissy fit over Angelo Poffo entering the HOF and drunkenly stumbled out of the company. (Or is that just a wrestling myth too) I want to hear some Solie/DDP from Florida for some reason.

I'll say this. Sometimes when working, especially if doing a tedious task, I'll hop on youtube and put on an old PTW or Wrestling Challenge or something and just listen to it while doing stuff. And it's entertaining enough that I enjoy the experience. I couldn't imagine doing that with a Tony Schiovane/David Crockett show (though I'd probably be okay with Mid South so long as Watts was there; he was so frigging entertaining). Wrestling is more than just the matches. Wrestling announcing is more than just calling and explaining and putting in context what happens in the ring.

Isn't "being a better worker" a trait?

Re: Savage Heel turn in 89. On the shows after the Main Event, Savage wrestled Warrior a few times, but then he went RIGHT back to wrestling Bad News Brown on a Canada sweep and then a few other spots. There's one report that Brown played the face in these and that makes sense in Canada I guess? But in NM and CA? To me it's weird they didn't immediately pair him with Beefcake, since it was Brutus who shielded Hogan and told Savage to go away after the Elizabeth incident. There's no footage of face Brown vs Heel Savage, right?

Actually, Miz should do that as a heel antic. Or even Ryder as a face one. I think it'd get over fairly well.

Anyone who wants to see a really good Kane performance, just watch Backlash 2008 vs Chavo. After Mania where he beat him in 9 seconds you wonder how the match could be anything but a joke, but they went out there in had a really strong match based on legwork and so much of that was Kane's selling. What impressed me the most is how well he sold while on offense, making it seem like it took more effort to hit things than usual and making sure to sell getting up and moving around after every move. And it built into the story since it was how Chavo kept getting back on offense, the best bit being Kane being unable to hit his top rope clothesline properly late in the match and Chavo capitalizing by recovering more quickly and snapping his rope off the top. It was a smart, logical, believable ten minute match. Good stuff and Kane more than held his own.

We always take crap much too seriously. Still do. Folks who say that we shouldn't take crap too seriously are usually the folks who take crap too seriously and are upsets about people disagreeing with the crap they take too seriously. John Trust me. I'm sure that in 97 I would have gotten pissed about dusty making fun of luchadors and not calling Chris Benoit matches well. Now, my single favorite thing in all of wrestling in 1995 is Dusty wearing a witch's hat on WCW Prime.

Gorilla/Polo is the most entertaining commentary team of all time. In 2012, I'd rather listen to them than anyone. I'd probably rather watch a bad match with them than a good match with no commentary as a way to spend my time. That said I'm not sure I'd really want to watch a good match with them, if that makes sense.

I think we need to break off to have Sid talk. EDIT: also, how the hell did Monsoon win worst WON announcer in 93 when Rob Bartlet did at least a quarter of the year on Raw. I am just BOGGLED by that. Also, we all took crap way too seriously in 97. Dusty won worst announcer then.

I only like Superstar and Lord Alfred together and then it's not in a "they're good" sort of way but in a "what the hell are they talking about?" entertainment sort of way.

Also, the end moment was Ziggler getting heat on Punk. I think it's generally better to put over the opponent right before a title match than the authority figure, no?

Would there be any argument for the team of Race and Larry Hennig? I'm totally ignorant here, but I know they had a fairly long and I thought successful run.

I wrote up over thirty matches! I don't care if they disagree, but I'd rather not they be confused about it! As for Dino, I fully believe that he was a hell of a draw/super over in Montreal, and the talk of them canceling the match with Hogan would prove speak to that too, but he was probably the worst/laziest pushed guy from a work perspective in the WWF during the late 80s and that's a pretty tough post peak to get over. Slightly related, as for WON voting, how they could put Fuji over Frenchy Martin for worst manager is beyond me. WWF Dino vs. Montreal Dino are two completely different animals. Dino was certainly the go-to guy in Quebec in the first part of the 80's. No question. He was mostly the champion of the area, and the top heels would come in and fight him for the title. Sorta reminds me of Backlund's title reign, except the heel challengers would get the title once in a while, sometimes even keeping it for a bit and making Bravo the chaser. Masked Superstar and King Tonga are the two that spring immediately to mind. Robinson is another one I think had a run with him. I think Patera and Bravo have similar hurdles to get over in general, because a huge majority of the audience base are going to remember sad, sickly, out of place post-prison Patera and blonde, plodding, selfish Bravo over all else. I buy the argument for Patera being both a huge draw and a great worker and he had a relatively short post-peak before dropping off the face of the earth (But boy does it ever stand out. He is the most out of place guy in the WORLD in the Survivor Series he's in). Bravo on the other hand was all over the place in late 80s WWF. And while I buy he was a draw in French Canada, I don't buy that he had the level of work a guy who was also top draw in a limited geographic area, like, let's say Buddy Rose, had, to make up the difference. But then my non-dyed Bravo exposure is pretty limited relative to Patera or Rose. Pimp me a match or two?

I wrote up over thirty matches! I don't care if they disagree, but I'd rather not they be confused about it! As for Dino, I fully believe that he was a hell of a draw/super over in Montreal, and the talk of them canceling the match with Hogan would prove speak to that too, but he was probably the worst/laziest pushed guy from a work perspective in the WWF during the late 80s and that's a pretty tough post peak to get over. Slightly related, as for WON voting, how they could put Fuji over Frenchy Martin for worst manager is beyond me.

Demolition were kings of psychology and structure. Say what you will about their lack of diverse offense (and there's an argument there), but Eadie knew exactly when things should happen and why. And since no one was going to argue with him, Demos matches tend to have that stuff.

With Kane, it's so easy to look past all the things that REALLY make it great and revolutionary, because they're things we take for granted now.

I can fully understand someone not liking Rip Rogers, but I also have no idea how I could find common ground with that person. Rip is basically everything about wrestling I love.

For just a moment there, I thought you were saying this.

John I remember when the true history of Wrestlemania DVD came out and we were all talking about Basil Devito as a guy we didn't really give much thought to before that. Honestly, I bet if someone asked Finkel about who did what on twitter they might get some answers.

My bias against ventura is, in part, that I think if he DID get in, it would be for all of the wrong reasons.

I'll be honest. I've always likened John's posts more to War and Peace than A Tale of Two Cities

For anyone interested (and someone can knock this down if it's either A ) not allowed in this section of the board, though I'm not sure anyone even sells it. That'd go against the spirit of the thing from Jesse's pov, I'd think, or B ) a faulty link or just the wrong file; I can't double check it at work): http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5A9PYQC1 This is a fascinating off the cusp, impromptu Ventura chat from 93 or 94, between smarks and Ventura, at a convention or show or something.

I think everyone's underestimating the sheer amount of hours Finkel put in backstage in the 80s too.

Shouldn't we be comparing Hunter to Larry Z?