Vince McMahon vs. The World

[KrisZ]

Well for years in the big markets, the WWF would always announce the matches on the next show there so you knew going in what the big matches were unless there were injuries something Crockett never did as far as I can remember.

[Strummer]

It's a copout but I can see both sides of the "WWF limiting big moves" debate. I can totally see the WWF side as if you save the big moves for big moments/shows they obviously mean more and can be promoted as major events in future angles. Plus they are more dramatic. But if you're a fan who loves workrate and highspots than you obviously weren't going to be satisfied. I tend to agree with the WWF side of things but I can totally see the other point

[Log]

You can say that in the end Vince's philosophy won out, which is a point I'll halfway begrudgingly accept, but I think more than that, his preparation and organization won out.

I do think his organizational skills were a factor in his winning. Watching a lot of World Class lately, and I'm always amazed at that one older guy that is the ring announcer at times (not Mercer, the dude who actually introduces the wrestlers). He seems to not be clear on who the wrestlers are at times or what the stipulations are on matches. Even little things like constantly announcing the Von Erichs as "The FABULOUS Von Erichs". Their opponents are widely known as The Fabulous Freebirds. Why would you insist on using Fabulous on the Von Erichs?

 

I know it's nit-picky, but it's little stuff like that that Vince would've corrected. To the average Joe just getting into wrestling, Vince's product comes across as more polished and "big time" than his competitors. As a kid, that's the way I saw it. Vince's show was more colorful, with cooler-looking guys and better graphics, etc. As I got older, I appreciated Crockett's and other's presentation as it was closer to gritty sport or something.

 

I just don't think you can underestimate how all this stuff and things like having announced cards ahead of time really made the WWF seem more "legit" as a business to fans at the time.

[Matt D]

Since I was looking at it, the 84 Yearbook (Jan. 85) issue of the observer was really down on WWF expansion, saying that WWF were retrenching, a lot of the guys they had brought in (re: Freebirds, for instance) had already left, and they had basically failed save for hurting the drawing power of some other organizations (like the AWA). I'm looking forward to seeing things a few months later.

 

Also re: Dave in the Wrestler of the year voting:

 

"If the WWF had lost Hulk for whatever reason, whonever(sic) his replacement would have been could do every bit as well at the gate."

[Matt D]

This might just be my gut but looking at results and Dave's comments you get the feeling that the House Shows were better by late, late 84. Piper was healthier again. Windham and Rotunda had shown up and along with Bret were in the undercard. Tama was showing promise. Buddy Rose was back in. Heenan had arrived. The Briscos were in matches.

[Matt D]

So I've been watching Southwest from 83, and one of the things I find interesting is the USA ad. This is early Jan, right after the tournament that Tully one.

 

they announce as the stars on their own in-house commercial: Bruiser Bob Sweetan, Cowboy Scott Casey, the Turk, and the masked Grapplers.

 

I'm still trying to figure out if the guys they brought in for the tournament are sticking around or not, but Adonis, Tully, Mike Graham, Ken Lucas/Ricky Morton seem to be the guys featured.

 

It's not a bad show from what I've seen so far (and the Lou Thesz commentary on the first show was great), but you do kind of think "Wait, THIS is the show on USA? And THIS is how they're promoting it?"

[jdw]

Missed these earlier...

 

Since I was looking at it, the 84 Yearbook (Jan. 85) issue of the observer was really down on WWF expansion, saying that WWF were retrenching, a lot of the guys they had brought in (re: Freebirds, for instance) had already left, and they had basically failed save for hurting the drawing power of some other organizations (like the AWA). I'm looking forward to seeing things a few months later.

Dave, and a lot of hardcores at the time, were actively rooting against the WWF. Hell, I was for years after that as well. But it did get in the way of some of the early business analysis of the WON holding up. I think as we can see in this thread, the WWF wasn't really retrenching. They always, throughout Expansion:

 

* moved into new cities

* if it popped, they stayed

* if it didn't, they'd move out

* if it was one they Really Wanted, they'd find ways to stick around or re-try

 

Also re: Dave in the Wrestler of the year voting:

 

"If the WWF had lost Hulk for whatever reason, whonever(sic) his replacement would have been could do every bit as well at the gate."

Dave would admit now he was wrong, and probably by 1986 was regularly explicit on Hogan being the key thing in the WWF.

 

In 1984... Hogan was the Antichrist and Vince was Satan. Granted, Hulk & Vince long held onto those roles in the WON... but there became increases willingness to address their successes.

 

I think Wrestlemania was a double turning point for Dave:

 

#1 - It initially made his want to get away from covering wrestling because he hated the direction it was going.

 

#2 - in short time, he realized he still loved a lot about wrestling and that writing about it / covering it was something he really enjoyed

 

It forced him to come to terms with the WWF: it was a monster within the business he covered. He didn't like a lot about it. But if he was going to cover the business, he had to cover the WWF and be more realistic about it.

 

John

[khawk20]

They always, throughout Expansion:

 

* if it was one they Really Wanted, they'd find ways to stick around or re-try

This is what they did in the Twin Cities.

[jdw]

Yeah, the AWA was really an area that I had in mind when writing that. Being able to pull in all those big cities in the Midwest was a huge part of expansion. This was before the Growth of the South, and where pulling in Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin and Minnesota was huge.

 

Using the 1980 Census Data...

 

WWF Pre-Expansion Base

17,558,165 - New York (#2)

11,864,720 - Pennsylvania (#4)

7,365,011 - New Jersey (#9)

5,737,093 - Massachusetts (#11)

4,216,933 - Maryland (#18)

3,107,564 - Connecticut (#25)

1,125,043 - Maine (#38)

947,154 - Rhode Island (#40)

920,610 - New Hampshire (#42)

638,432 - District of Columbia (--)

594,338 - Delaware (#47)

511,456 - Vermont (#48)

Subtotal: 54,586,519 (24%) of the US

 

Midwest Expansion

11,427,409 - Illinois (#5)

10,797,603 - Ohio (#6)

9,746,961 - Florida (#7)

9,262,044 Michigan (#8)

5,490,210 - Indiana (#12)

4,705,642 - Wisconsin (#16)

4,075,970 - Minnesota (#21)

Subtotal: 45,758,878 (20%) of the US

 

And let's just ignore all the other places they expanded into in 1984-86 and add just two states where the focused a lot of attention starting right in 1984:

 

Other Key Expansion

23,667,764 - California (#1)

4,916,766 - Missouri (#15)

Subtotal: 28,584,530 (13%) of the US

 

Total: 128,929,927 (57%) of the US.

 

Game over. Basically the critical mass for WWF Expansion was:

 

* take the Midwest (while damaging off the local promotion)

* take the largely wide open West

 

California was there for the taking, and the had the Hogan led product to do it. The Midwest would be a war, but it was the one key war they were willing to fight to the death.

 

Mizzou had some strategic value in addition to the pure numbers: hurt the NWA at it's heart while also making it easier to take the metros in Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska. Not huge metros, but additional numbers Vince could add to his bigger picture.

 

Of the Top 20, all that was remaining:

 

14,225,513 - Texas (#3)

9,746,961 - Florida (#7)

5,880,095 - North Carolina (#10)

5,462,982 - Georgia (#13)

5,346,797 - Virginia (#14)

4,591,023 - Tennessee (#17)

4,206,116 - Louisiana (#19)

4,132,353 - Washington (#20)

 

Washington was part of the Western expansion: once you have California, you have a base to run shows on a "swing" up into Washington (#20), Oregon (#30) and across to Colorado (#28), Arizona (#29), Utah (#36) and Nevada (#43). The positive about those six other Western states is that a large chunk of the populations are in one or two major cities. They're relatively easy to promote in for a national promotion. In CO, you can throw your focus on winning Denver.

 

Florida... we had a lot earlier in the thread about Vince & Hulk eventually taking that one. They put a good deal of effort into it, and the local promotion didn't stay strong very long even if it took until 1987 to die.

 

Vince put some effort into Texas, but Dallas was a problem due to the Von Erich-centric nature of the fans. For much of the decade, Vince would eventually turn his attention to winning Houston... which he did. Houston *alone* is as valuable as a lot of states in the contry.

 

NC, GA, VA, TN, LA... some attempts, then tossed in a lot of the towel.

 

WWF Base + Midwest + CA = Victory

 

Adding just the Midwest & CA, Hogan anchored a move from states with a population of 54,586,519 to add states that had a population of 74,343,408, a 136% increase in the size of the WWF. Again, that's not even touching the other states and/or metros they added in the Hogan Era.

 

Stone Cold Who?

 

And that's coming from a big Stone Cold Fan, and someone who historically didn't like Hogan. What Vince and Hogan did was pretty mindnumbing.

 

John

[jdw]

Looking at it another way, here's JCP pre-expansion:

 

5,880,095 - North Carolina (#10)

5,346,797 - Virginia (#14)

3,120,729 - South Carolina (#24)

Total: 14,347,621 - 6% of the country

 

That's not a terrible base, but... Vince quickly cuts off roads of expansion by taking the Midwest.

 

JCP gets a skin in the game by taking Atlanta onces Ole & Co die:

 

5,462,982 - Georgia (#13)

 

That's not a bad add. Relative to Vince, it's the same size as Indiana... roughly half the size of IL, OH and MI each... and it would take 4.33 GA's to add up to CA. But not a bad add.

 

Looking at what JCP *should* have done:

 

9,746,961 - Florida (#7)

 

The problem is it was an NWA territory, and as an NWA promotion they couldn't have invaded it. I don't recall the ownership of Florida at the time when Vince started coming in, but it really is the one where JCP should have cut a deal to take over. Screw the local shows, run JCP TV, and you've got Dusty.

 

The problems are timing. They couldn't take GA until Ole was ready to throw in the towel, and couldn't take FL until they started expanding. But in hindsight, they should have focused a core on:

 

9,746,961 - Florida (#7)

5,880,095 - North Carolina (#10)

5,462,982 - Georgia (#13)

5,346,797 - Virginia (#14)

3,120,729 - South Carolina (#24)

Total: 29,557,564 - 13% of the country

 

Yikes... that's still small. With some of the best avenues of Southern Expanson Cut off:

 

Von Erich Ville

14,225,513 - Texas #(3)

 

Lawler Land

4,591,023 - Tennessee (#17)

3,660,324 - Kentucky (#23)

 

Watts World

4,206,116 - Louisiana (#19)

 

You kind of get the sense of just how Game Over it was if Vince took the Midwest and the West. For one of the NWA territories to shoot the moon it would have to:

 

* kill off several of the other local promotions for smaller amounts of eyeballs

* then try to win regions where Vince had already gotten established

 

Both are hard.

 

Vince basically targetted:

 

#1 - the biggest Rival

#2 - the biggest Open Territory

 

That first one is pretty fucking ballsy when you think about it, and brillant. Combine the WWF + AWA territories (I haven't even included Denver in these AWA calculations), and you're huge. Then add CA...

 

We bounced around a list of the Metros earlier in the thread. It's really hard to see where a JCP could have (i) first built a stronger core, then (ii) expanded into a new carveout core to build up before (iii) trying to expand into strong WWF cities. Things like having the Von Erichs, Lawler and Watts in decent cities and not exactly wanting to hand over the keys to them... that's a block. Then having GA and FL linger rather than say in mid-1984 quickly being gobbled up into JCP... that slowed things as well.

 

Vince & Hulk were good... very good.

 

John

[KrisZ]

The deal with Florida was that after Eddie died, Mike took over and we all know about how Mike is so that's why it took so long before he finally sold out.

 

The thing about Crockett was when he expanded into Philly & Chicago, he did really well there and like we've seen in posts earlier in the thread they would win some battles in those cities which if they could have maintained that it would have put Vince on his toes.

[jdw]

They did very well in Philly and Baltimore, and an inconsistent-well in Chicago (in the sense of not as consistently well as Philly).

 

I had those three cities in mind when writing:

 

It's really hard to see where a JCP could have (i) first built a stronger core, then (ii) expanded into a new carveout core to build up before (iii) trying to expand into strong WWF cities.

And that they were limited.

 

Core was the Carolinas and VA, which is a pretty small core. They did do strong business, but it was... small in geography and population.

 

By Carveouts, I mean a territory where the promotion is dead or in deep shit. California was a Carveout for the WWE: dead territories in NoCal and SoCal. There is no opposition going in, and so the WWF was simply able to carveout a new territory for themselves *if* they had product that could draw people. Hogan.

 

Carveouts were limited to GA and FL, which were dying. Watts, Lawler/Jarrett/Von Erichs weren't going to merge, and weren't dead yet.

 

If they got strong in the Core and were able to get strong on the Carveouts of FL and GA, they then would have a strong base to opperate. To me the key would have been firming up Florida into as much of Crockett Country as Atlanta eventually became, so that Vince and Hogan would bomb and quickly withdraw. That's a major, huge, big "if". Florida was so valuable to Vince that he probably would have kept trying. But to be a sustain, strong #2, I tend to think taking and holding Florida before Vince would be key to JCP.

 

Then it's the expand. The issues with JCP is that they expanded everywhere, didn't do it very organized, and cost a lot of money. Running monthly / near monthly in Los Angeles was a bad idea. They shoud have had the 90s WWF plan of hitting big cities like Los Angeles four or so times a year. I think for Crockett, I would keep it down to 2-3, but very well planned out "Western Swings".

 

Instead of expanding everywhere, I would have been more focused on moving slightly up the coast: test Philly, test Baltimore, test DC. If you do well, add them to the cycle of VA and NC. You're not traveling all over the country, having no shows, running up bills, etc.

 

I don't think NY was an option since Vince had MSG, the Meadowlands, and Nassau. I don't think I'd even worry too much about Boston.

 

Don't know if it would have been sustainable. We talked in another thread that Mania III was a game changer among game changers. JCP's only hope would have been to reach all this (especially capturing Florida) prior to Mania III.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Well basically what Crockett did was add Philly & Jersey to the circuit that Georgia already had lined up with Baltimore, Ohio, Michigan, West Virginia, & Western PA so he had a NE circuit set up in 1985 after buying out Ole. The deal with going out west a lot was simple in that Flair & Dusty wanted to go there as much as possible because of their love for Vegas especially Flair. They would camp out in Vegas then travel from there every day.

 

The problem with the Southwestern circuit was you still had Fritz & Watts maintaining a stronghold although you had Crockett sending talent to Watts for big shows to knock out Fritz for leaving the NWA but Watts was very smart to get Flair to come in during 1985 building a relationship with him & Crockett for the future war with Fritz.

 

If Watts would've been smart he would've tried to group up with Crockett proper instead of trying to run national on his own. Another thing that definitely should've been taken care of was Houston and Crockett really should've buttered him up because not getting Houston with the Watts buyout was a huge detriment. They get Houston and the TV with Boesch still around doing what he did and they have some big momentum because Vince was struggling there.

 

The biggest problem in everything of course was the stubborn promoters which Vince didn't have that problem with because he just took them out directly.

[jdw]

I know GA was running in Ohio, Michigan, West Virginia, & Western PA. Just don't think they were running very well in those cities.

 

Given the choice of trying to run in Ohio head to head with Vince, or trying to take over Florida after Dusty joined JCP... I'd try to take Florida. If you do well enough in it, you might block Vince from getting over there. Ohio... I don't think there was anyway that you've ever be able to block Vince from linking up between WWF Base and the AWA Territory. Michagan was also something he was going to take.

 

The only part of the GA Territory that was worth the immediate focus was where GA had a history of good success: GA.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Yeah but at the time they already had access to the buildings until Vince put the squeeze on the owners and that was easier than trying to get Mike to sell out. GCW had success running Columbus & Cleveland along with the main cities in West Virginia. Michigan wasn't as strong but they still ran there and they dipped their toes in Altoona and while I don't have numbers they were doing better there than WWF did in that same building.

[jdw]

I'd be interested in what buildings they were running in Clev and Colombus. I don't think they were doing any kind of business in Michigan until "relaunching" in 1987 with the Flair-Garvin title change, and even then it was limited success. I just don't think it's worth the time to run in Ohio averaging 4000, if they even averaged 4000.

 

I don't know what they could have done about Florida. Vince moved into Florida in mid-late 1984, then with a vengence in 1985:

 

1984 - 7 shows

1985 - 34

1986 - 24

1987 - 28

1988 - 22

 

Those are "at least", since Graham probably doesn't have all of them.

 

I think when Barry & Rotundo left, it should have been the handwriting on the wall for Mike Graham. Mike was/is such a prick that I don't know quite how you handle it... but you've somehow got to get across to him that he's fucked unless he "merges" with JCP. I don't know what you can give him, or how much to buy him out. It wouldn't be political to simply move in... and in 1984, JCP had enough worries about their own territory: they weren't exactly red hot, Valentine & Piper split, Sarge was gone the year before... Flair was still touring quite a bit... a freaking mess.

 

If you're JCP, do you simply have the balls to pull out of the NWA, name Flair the champ of "whatever", and move into GA and Florida? When Black Saturday, do you lobby Turner hard for either the Sunday slot (that went to Watts) or the Saturday slot (that went to Ole)? Do you get an emergency meeting of the NWA where Crockett twists arms to be given GA (since GCW effectively died as an NWA promotion when Vince bought it) and Florida given Vince's invasions? Or GA first, then work on setting up Florida next?

 

Like you say, they were a bunch of bastard promoters who were doing good business in 1983 and into 1984 and thought Vince would fail. A smart JCP would have hedged against that...

 

John

[Mad Dog]

Columbus native here. I believe they were running at the Ohio State Fairgrounds and they might have done some shows at Veterans Memorial. I can check on Veterans Memorial.

[Mad Dog]

Got you a little info. It looks like they ran the Ohio Center primarily in the early 80s. That building eventually was expanded and became the Columbus Convention Center.

[KrisZ]

They ran the Ohio Center in C-Bus and the Convocation Center in Cleveland so big buildings in those markets.

 

As we've seen WWF went for the Miami market heavy at first and didn't really go to Tampa until late 85-early 86 when CWF was starting to tumble.

 

The deal with JCP was they were having one of their worst years in 1984 and you could actually make the case that GCW was doing better than they were before the Vince buyout. Dusty comes in as booker in July and they start doing a little bit better but it doesn't pick up until Starrcade so around Black Saturday time, CWF was just as strong if not stronger than JCP although Dusty going to JCP hurt them hard.

 

Watts not getting TBS was the X-factor in the whole equation. Watts was ready to open up an office in the ATL and everything but Crockett being the smart businessman saw what was coming and wrote the check.

 

I just don't think Crockett would've dropped the NWA name he just wanted to take over the NWA for his own.

[jdw]

Hitting Florida first:

 

As we've seen WWF went for the Miami market heavy at first and didn't really go to Tampa until late 85-early 86 when CWF was starting to tumble.

Hollywood, FL - Sportatorium - June 16, 1984

Hollywood, FL - Sportatorium - July 21, 1984

Miami, FL - Knight Center - September 22, 1984

Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 27, 1984

Miami, FL - Knight Center - November 27, 1984

Jacksonville, FL - Veterans Memorial Coliseum - December 26, 1984

Miami, FL - Knight Civic Center - December 26, 1984

 

Miami, FL - Knight Center - January 16, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - January 29, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - February 22, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - March 15, 1985

Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - March 16, 1985

Miami, FL - April 24, 1985

West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - April 29, 1985

Miami, FL - May 26, 1985

West Palm Beach, FL - May 27, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - June 15, 1985

Jacksonville, FL - June 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - July 18, 1985

Pensacola, FL - Civic Center - August 15, 1985

Ft. Myers, FL - Lee Civic Center - August 16 or 17, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - August 17, 1985

Tampa, FL - August 18, 1985

Orlando, FL - Orange County Convention Center - August 19, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - September 16, 1985

West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - September 17, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 6, 1985

West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - October 7, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 28, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 28, 1985

Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - October 30, 1985

West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - November 25, 1985

Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - November 26, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - November 27, 1985

Miami, FL - Knight Center - December 9, 1985

Orlando, FL - Orange County Civic Center - December 10, 1985

Tampa, FL - SunDome - December 19, 1985

 

Hollywood looking like targeting Miami before they got the Miami building they wanted. I think we can say they were consistently running Miami from mid-1984 on.

 

West Palm Beach is up the road from Hollywood... an intersting place to run. They would often do it on the same swing as Miami. Polulation over over half a million in 1980, and rapidly growing. Lots of shows there:

 

April 29, 1985

May 27, 1985

September 17, 1985

October 7, 1985

November 25, 1985

 

We're probably missing shows there, possibly even shows prior to April.

 

Jacksonville:

 

December 26, 1984

March 16, 1985

June 1985

October 30, 1985

November 26, 1985

 

Again, suspect we might be missing shows. But Vince moved into Jacksonville in Dec 1984 and look to have run shows about every three months: five shows in 11 months.

 

Tampa / Orlando:

 

Tampa, FL - August 18, 1985

Orlando, FL - Orange County Convention Center - August 19, 1985

Orlando, FL - Orange County Civic Center - December 10, 1985

Tampa, FL - SunDome - December 19, 1985

 

That looks like the one they moved into in the second half of 1985.

 

This oddball:

 

Pensacola, FL - Civic Center - August 15, 1985

 

Probably best summed up by:

 

* Miami first in mid-1984 (Hollywood --> Miami then Miami + West Palm)

* Jacksonville in Dec 1984

* Tampa & Orlando in Aug 1985

 

 

The deal with JCP was they were having one of their worst years in 1984 and you could actually make the case that GCW was doing better than they were before the Vince buyout. Dusty comes in as booker in July and they start doing a little bit better but it doesn't pick up until Starrcade so around Black Saturday time, CWF was just as strong if not stronger than JCP although Dusty going to JCP hurt them hard.

 

Watts not getting TBS was the X-factor in the whole equation. Watts was ready to open up an office in the ATL and everything but Crockett being the smart businessman saw what was coming and wrote the check.

 

I just don't think Crockett would've dropped the NWA name he just wanted to take over the NWA for his own.

Agree with all of this, especially JCP not having a great year in 1984. They had been gutted as 1983 went along, and by early 1984 were thing when Flair was touring.

 

I don't know if JCP had the resources to finance an expansion. You never were going to get Ole to go along with it, though it would have been interesting if you could have gotten Ole's partners (who eventually sold out to Vince) to go along. *That* might have been the thing to do: buy them out bit by bit, then make Ole an offer for whatever shares he had. I don't recall the share structure at the time. JCP would have gotten the TBS slot, and made Ted perfectly happy. Then the questions becomes how well could you have convinced Graham to come along, and when. The attacks on Miami were obvious, though Mike probably thought he was doing okay. The move into Jacksonville strike me as Vince showing he was serious. I really think JCP needed to get into there before Tampa, Orlando and St Pete were easing to Vince... and before Miami & Jacksonville were too locked down.

 

On Ohio:

 

They ran the Ohio Center in C-Bus and the Convocation Center in Cleveland so big buildings in those markets.

We're they doing any business of note? It's not like Vince had a problem making Ohio his own, and it never was a really strong JCP market. I think Ole ran it because it was "open" and hoped to do something there, not because they were rolling in the dough.

 

I don't disagree with the notion that it would have been nice to get that if you're JCP... I just don't see it as one where Vince could lose, and that it wouldn't be a serious ass kicking. That's why I focus on GA and FL. It's clear that JCP had good success in GA, and that Vince had major issues there for ages. FL is closer to California than the other Southern states, so it's possible that it was set up to buy Vince's product. But it also has a feel as a place were, if in there earlier enough, JCP might have at a best "worst case" of something akin to Baltimore: a good area for them even if Vince does well to. A better case would be beating back Vince.

 

Of course it's entirely possible Vince would have rolled Florida anyway.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

Columbus supports wrestling in any form. WCW drew, ECW drew, TNA draws, etc. WWE doesn't draw so well anymore but they really burned us on some fucking awful shows. I know a lot of guys quit going after that awful HHH/HBK HIAC match. As for GCW, I was born in 81 so I wouldn't know first hand. The GCW crew from about 80-83 is really well known by the old timer fans around here though. They talk about those guys more than they do Crockett honestly. So I would say, they at least were drawing well enough to come back 3-5 times a year.

[KrisZ]

Those Northern tours were actually what was keeping GCW going for a while there as they were the hottest towns since the Omni was way too big for them to run so often and Macon/Columbus were good towns but not booming business like Columbus, Cleveland, or Huntington.

 

Regarding Florida another factor is maybe Dusty didn't want Jim to go there out of respect for the Graham family as Dusty & Mike were always close like brothers pretty much.

 

Bringing up why JCP didn't buyout the other partners, that's an interesting point because Jack & Jerry were working for Crockett at that time as the NWA World Tag champs so that was an easy way to go but I don't think Crockett was serious at that time or just never thought that they would sell to Vince. We have to think about that as well, who really thought the Brisco brothers would turn their backs on the NWA. I'm sure it caught almost everyone by surprise.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Couldn't it be explained as easy as "The Brisco's were smart and saw what was going to happen"? And then add in how much they hated Ole. Granted, I'm going on the stories about the relationship between Ole and the Brisco's.

[sek69]

I think the Briscos (well Jack at least) were pretty much done with wrestling at that point and just wanted to cash out and go home. Getting to stick it to Ole was probably just a bonus.

[jdw]

I don't think JCP was so well off in early 1983 as some JCP fanboys (i.e. not folks here) think they might have been. So they might not have had the funds to go into a major expansion.

 

I can see Dusty having respect for the Grahams. There also was major taboo about attacking another NWA territory. Eddie also didn't die until January 1985. I don't know how much power he passed off to Mike while he was still alive. It's *possible* that the time to deal with Florida was as Vince was just going into it in Miami, and deal directly with Eddie on a Merger. Use Dusty as a go between.

 

Problem is that Eddie might demand a 50-50 by over playing the size of his territory. I *think* the way you get around that is comparing the revenue of 1983-84, in which case JCP would drawf Florida. Graham's % of the merger would be based on that.

 

This would be after Vince bought out GA, so there's a little bit of a cloud hanging over the NWA that JCP could use: Vince was clearly expanding, going to massive war with the AWA and St Louis, taking out GA... "and the move into Miami shows you're next, Eddie."

 

Would he go for that? Don't know.

 

I'm trying to remember the details of the GA purchase by Vince. Was it Barnett & the Briscos' cut that he bought out, or were there other owners as well?

 

JCP did have a relationship with the Briscos going back a while. Jimmy had to have dealt with Barnett in the NWA circles for years.

 

Not saying any of this "should" have happened, or even "could". Though I do think that once Vince bought GA that JCP should have actively pushed to:

 

(i) get the new TBS deal(s)

 

(ii) get the NWA territory of GA (i.e. allowed to expand into it)

 

John