Vince McMahon vs. The World

[thebrainfollower]

Shawn did it. I can see Shawn's early 92 heel work vs. Hawk or Animal in a singles quite easily. Marty did it pretty well in 96 with Leif Cassidy too.

 

Vince has always had a hard on for the "yeah but how would he beat THIS monster" when booking a monster face rather than going for the contrast and getting a much much better match out of it. Imagine a Rockers heel turn and how good Shawn and Marty might have made the LOD look as opposed to what that Disasters feud did for them.

By default, the Rockers would of had to change their ENTIRE characters and style that they work their matches, especially back then to work as heels, and them working with the dominant LOD in that capacity, at that period of time, simply wouldn't have worked.

 

[Al]

That would be one to ask KHawk about. I don't recall the Warriors being seen as a massive draw in the AWA.

 

On the other hand, one gets a sense that Vince would have done better with them than Verne or Crockett/Dusty. Though perhaps not, since he didn't do well with them when he got them.

 

The problem with the Warriors is that you do need to feed them red meat. I think putting Big Fat Guys against them, such as Quake & Typhon, was a mistake. The Warriors just didn't look impressive against guys who were bigger, and against whom they couldn't do all their Cool Shit against. It's one thing to put them up against other muscle heads (Russians and Powers of Pain), where the Warriors just come off as the baddest ass of that type. Big Fat Guys... not great.

 

John

Honestly, they should have tossed the Nasty Boys at them.

 

The Road Warriors did get a feud against the Nastys that nearly lasted six months.

 

Looking at Cawthon's site, you essentially get these feuds:

 

Demolition (Smash & Crush)

The Orient Express

The Nasty Boys

The Natural Disasters

The Beverly Brothers

 

After Summerslam, who knows. Probably against Money Inc. as I get the feeling the Nasty Boys turned face to replace the Warriors. But what killed the LOD in the end was Hawk's unreliability more than anything else.

[Johnny Guitar]

I don't think people were ready for The Rockers too turn heel as a unit. It was a different time then. I know Shawn turned, but that was a breakup angle, which made sense.

 

Everyone expected demolition, The Harts and even the Bushwackers to switch before the Rockers did.

[Dylan Waco]

Well looking at the numbers city by city it looks like the AWA's numbers dropped pretty hard around the time the Roadies left. Maybe that's just a coincidence but I have my doubts.

 

The AWA slowed down or stopped booking Sarge, Blackwell and The Roadies all around the same time IIRC.

 

If you go back and look at 84 and 85 cards from top to bottom the guy with the closest correlation to cards coming up when he's there and down when he's gone is Blackwell.

[thebrainfollower]

Okay but it does seem that when other promotions (Memphis for instance) is holding a "hold Vince off at all costs mega card" the Roadies are the common theme.

 

Well looking at the numbers city by city it looks like the AWA's numbers dropped pretty hard around the time the Roadies left. Maybe that's just a coincidence but I have my doubts.

 

The AWA slowed down or stopped booking Sarge, Blackwell and The Roadies all around the same time IIRC.

 

If you go back and look at 84 and 85 cards from top to bottom the guy with the closest correlation to cards coming up when he's there and down when he's gone is Blackwell.

 

[khawk20]

Okay but it does seem that when other promotions (Memphis for instance) is holding a "hold Vince off at all costs mega card" the Roadies are the common theme.

That makes sense if the Roadies are "special attractions" on those cards, and not regulars in the area.

[mookeighana]

I was working on something today that seems related to the discussion in this thread, so I thought I would post it here.

 

As part of my Kickstarter book project, I've been working on mapping WWWF/WWF/WWE events to the major media markets surrounding them.

Today, I went through about 16,000 WWF events from 1970-2011 from TheHistoryofWWE and with the help of some zipcode databases and geo-coding tools, I was able to pull latitude/longitude addresses for the majority of events. Then, using a "Spherical Law of Cosines" formula, I calculated the approximate distance between each event and the top 30 US Television Markets.

 

Notes on my methodology

(a) I used a modern television market list. 25 years ago, I imagine there are some differences. If someone finds/has a good list of major television marketplaces in 1985, please share it with me.

( Graham's site often lists events that weren't WWF promoted, but maybe had a single WWF titleholder on them. For the most part, I ignored these events and did not count them as WWF events. So, I excluded a lot of Pittsburgh 1970-1974, Canada 1976-1987, St Louis 1974-1980 and FL results (Tampa/Orlando/Miami) 1973-1980. Some of these events probably should have counted, but if they didn't have a WWF in the name and the workers seemed to be mostly non-core WWF people, I didn't include them.

© Each event was mapped to: (i) one of the top 30 markets if it was within a set radius (ii) Canada, if in Canada (iii) international (if else).

(d) Radius was set at 75 miles. In reality, it might be appropriate for some markets to have wide radius and others more narrow, but for the sake of this, I just kept it steady at an arbitrary 75 miles.

(e) Includes events with no results/cancelled events. I could refine this to other events with results, but that would exclude some of the events that did take place and probably not sway the overall results much.

 

 

Average number of events per year

Radius				  70-82 	83-91 	92-11 	% of TTL					
Other US City	   	PRE   	DURING	POST	  PRE   	DURING	POST  
Other US city	   	69		222   	117   	21%   	38%   	38%   
NYC				 	65		43		15		20%   	7%		5%	
BOSTON				  65		28		11		20%   	5%		4%	
PHILADELPHIA			56		17		8	 	17%   	3%		3%	
INT'L			   	0	 	12		42		0%		2%		14%   
CANADA				  0	 	49		25		0%		8%		8%	
PITTSBURGH			  20		17		6	 	6%		3%		2%	
HARTFORD				20		15		5	 	6%		3%		2%	
BALTIMORE		   	18		14		4	 	6%		2%		2%	
WASHINGTON, DC		  14		10		3	 	4%		2%		1%	
LOS ANGELES		 	0	 	13		6	 	0%		2%		2%	
DETROIT			 	0	 	16		5	 	0%		3%		2%	
CHICAGO			 	0	 	14		5	 	0%		2%		2%	
SAN FRAN				0	 	10		4	 	0%		2%		1%	
CLEVELAND		   	0	 	11		3	 	0%		2%		1%	
MIAMI			   	0	 	11		3	 	0%		2%		1%	
ST LOUIS				0	 	7	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
SACRAMENTO			  0	 	6	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
SAN DIEGO		   	0	 	7	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
INDIANAPOLIS			0	 	6	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
DENVER				  0	 	6	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
HOUSTON			 	0	 	5	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
MSP				 	0	 	6	 	1	 	0%		1%		1%	
TAMPA			   	0	 	4	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
PHOENIX			 	0	 	5	 	1	 	0%		1%		1%	
NASHVILLE		   	0	 	3	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
RALEIGH-DURHAM		  0	 	0	 	3	 	0%		0%		1%	
SEATTLE			 	0	 	4	 	1	 	0%		1%		1%	
ORLANDO			 	0	 	3	 	2	 	0%		1%		1%	
ATLANTA			 	0	 	3	 	1	 	0%		1%		1%	
DALLAS-FT. WORTH		0	 	1	 	2	 	0%		0%		1%	
PORTLAND, OREGON		0	 	3	 	0	 	0%		1%		0%	
CHARLOTTE		   	0	 	1	 	1	 	0%		0%		0%

 

 

I think the Canada number is misleading; they were aligned with Tunney's Ontario promotion prior to 1984, right? However, I didn't call the Ontario promotion WWF in the pre-1984 phase.

 

You can certainly see McMahon breaking into rival's territories when he's running Detroit, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Fran, Cleveland, Miami, St Louis, Indianapolis, Houston, Minneapolis-St Paul, Nasvhille, Atlanta and Charlotte.

Meanwhile, the number of shows he ran in his old hotbeds of Greater New York City, Boston, Philly all declined dramatically.

 

As you see in the graph, the % of time spent in major markets actually drops during the expansion, but that's because absolute # of shows went so high.

It goes from 79% of shows (261 shows) to 51% of shows (327 shows) from 1983-1991 to 41% (119 shows).

 

-C. Harrington

[Guest Nell Santucci]

One thing this thread did reinforce for me is how deserving of legendary status the Road Warriors are. If Vince had signed them in January 84 with everyone else you can knock probably 35% of the AWA's numbers through mid 86 and a ton of numbers as well for super shows where they came in as a special attraction. I'd place them with Flair, maybe above him as the 2nd major attraction of the expansion era.

 

This isn't true at all. If you follow the big picture on The Roadies there were as many disappointments with them as drawing cards in the AWA than anything else. The consistent link with stronger crowds in 84/85 isn't The Roadies - it's Blackwell.

 

That's an interesting interpretation. Do you see the Road Warriors as a HOF act? If not, which teams would you rate higher as historical candidates?

 

KrisZ, again, this is the greatest thread of all time.

[Dylan Waco]

One thing this thread did reinforce for me is how deserving of legendary status the Road Warriors are. If Vince had signed them in January 84 with everyone else you can knock probably 35% of the AWA's numbers through mid 86 and a ton of numbers as well for super shows where they came in as a special attraction. I'd place them with Flair, maybe above him as the 2nd major attraction of the expansion era.

 

This isn't true at all. If you follow the big picture on The Roadies there were as many disappointments with them as drawing cards in the AWA than anything else. The consistent link with stronger crowds in 84/85 isn't The Roadies - it's Blackwell.

 

That's an interesting interpretation. Do you see the Road Warriors as a HOF act? If not, which teams would you rate higher as historical candidates?

 

KrisZ, again, this is the greatest thread of all time.

 

 

It's actually not that interesting an interpretation aside from the fact that it goes against the narrative that The Roadies were huge draws all the time everywhere. I like Matt Farmer but one of the more cringeworthy things in recent HoF related debates was Matt's contention over at Classics that The Roadies often tripled attendance in the AWA - in a thread filled with results that showed no such thing.

 

The Roadies are in the HoF and should be. Influential team, draws in a many different places, hugely over act, et. But the AWA run was not a high point. At their best moments in the AWA they were part of a successful package with other other entities. I see little evidence to indicate they were the driving force behind AWA successes during that period.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

One thing this thread did reinforce for me is how deserving of legendary status the Road Warriors are. If Vince had signed them in January 84 with everyone else you can knock probably 35% of the AWA's numbers through mid 86 and a ton of numbers as well for super shows where they came in as a special attraction. I'd place them with Flair, maybe above him as the 2nd major attraction of the expansion era.

 

This isn't true at all. If you follow the big picture on The Roadies there were as many disappointments with them as drawing cards in the AWA than anything else. The consistent link with stronger crowds in 84/85 isn't The Roadies - it's Blackwell.

 

That's an interesting interpretation. Do you see the Road Warriors as a HOF act? If not, which teams would you rate higher as historical candidates?

 

KrisZ, again, this is the greatest thread of all time.

 

 

It's actually not that interesting an interpretation aside from the fact that it goes against the narrative that The Roadies were huge draws all the time everywhere. I like Matt Farmer but one of the more cringeworthy things in recent HoF related debates was Matt's contention over at Classics that The Roadies often tripled attendance in the AWA - in a thread filled with results that showed no such thing.

 

The Roadies are in the HoF and should be. Influential team, draws in a many different places, hugely over act, et. But the AWA run was not a high point. At their best moments in the AWA they were part of a successful package with other other entities. I see little evidence to indicate they were the driving force behind AWA successes during that period.

 

Is there any evidence that they drew well in WWF? In 1990, their main event program involved being paired with the Ultimate Warrior against Demolition. I've never seen evidence that Warrior was a failed draw as champion beyond the circumstance except that Dave Meltzer insists that he was because sources in WWF said so. What did WWF expect by pairing Warrior against Rude and Perfect, where the former had already feuded with him and then got jobbed out to Piper, and the latter was basically a midcard act who got jobbed out to Brutus Beefcake. That's tangential, but is there any evidence that the Road Warriors helped Warrior's drawing ability in six-man tags?

[Loss]

They were an upper midcard act in the WWF at best, so no, they weren't draws. Their drawing was in the NWA and All Japan, with possible brief success elsewhere at times.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

They were an upper midcard act in the WWF at best, so no, they weren't draws. Their drawing was in the NWA and All Japan, with possible brief success elsewhere at times.

Yes, but they headlined the B-shows in 1990. That puts them in a position to draw. No? Granted, they were six-man tag matches, so that might not count, and they were against opponents whose credibility by 1990 was no longer there.

 

Thinking about it, it's actually baffling that Demolition dropped the belts to the Hart Foundation in 1990, given that the Road Warriors had been hired. Losing the belts, despite the cheating on part of Demolition, really made them lose credibility as heels against a team that looked like total bad ass shit-kickers.

[KrisZ]

Maple Leaf Wrestling was aligned with Crockett from 1978-84 but used WWF talent at times and it increased in 1982-83 but it was still a Crockett satellite group until Summer 1984.

[JerryvonKramer]

How much credit would anyone give the Road Warriors for some of the numbers WWF were drawing on their 91 and 92 European tours? Royal Albert Hall shows, big crowd at Wembley Arena, 19,000 in Barcelona. A lot of those shows seem to be headlined by them defending their titles, typically against the Nasties.

[mookeighana]

Maple Leaf Wrestling was aligned with Crockett from 1978-84 but used WWF talent at times and it increased in 1982-83 but it was still a Crockett satellite group until Summer 1984.

Thanks for the clarification Kris.

[khawk20]

How much credit would anyone give the Road Warriors for some of the numbers WWF were drawing on their 91 and 92 European tours? Royal Albert Hall shows, big crowd at Wembley Arena, 19,000 in Barcelona. A lot of those shows seem to be headlined by them defending their titles, typically against the Nasties.

If their European tours were infrequent or non-existent before the 91 and 92 tours, I would hesitate to give them much credit...it would have been more the fans being attracted to the event more than the individuals, getting into "the WWF experience" as a whole, anxious to see "The #1 wrestling group!!!" (or insert whatever other WWF hype they spread from 83-present here).

 

If Europe was a more regular stop in the years preceding it, then that might be a different story.

[Guest Andrews]

I think LOD deserve a lot of credit for being draws in Europe, they were huge there in the early 90's. If you watch Summerslam 92 - they were clearly the biggest deal on the card other than Bret / Bulldog.

[Matt D]

My general feeling is that the big draw in Europe at that time was "The WWF," not any specific talent.

[JerryvonKramer]

My general feeling is that the big draw in Europe at that time was "The WWF," not any specific talent.

you'd have to search about, but I remember being shot down or at least challenged when I was arguing this a year or two ago. My claim was that the extent to which Bulldog was a draw for Summerslam 92 was overstated -- that people were just turning out for the novelty of WWF.

 

I don't think it's possible to have it both ways. If Bulldog can be proven to be a draw in Europe, I think you have to give props to the Road Warriors too because they headlined a lot of cards around that time. Bret Hart probably doesn't get enough credit as a European draw.

 

If you can prove the name on the marquee was WWF and it's primarily that which was drawing, then none of them get credit.

[Matt D]

Rarity is an issue as well. And novelty. And availability of competition.

 

I might go digging. I'd be curious in seeing that argument. I also think there is something innately logical about Bulldog being a national draw which doesn't necessarily hold with the Road Warriors.

 

Summerslam 1992 was promoted with Bulldog as the returning hero going for the belt as a big thing. LOD were buried in a feudless nothing match with Money Inc. It was a trough, as you like to say. The Tag Team Title match was Natural Disasters vs Beverly Brothers (which is actually a really good match).

[JerryvonKramer]

I think their positioning on that card was more to do with their bad behaviour out of the ring. That was their first match back wasn't it?

 

Anecdottally, there was a lot of LoD merch in school around that time. As much as there was Warrior and Bret Hart stuff. I've said it before but I don't really remember Bulldog being over huge with kids in school, but I was in Wales so some of them might have been ambivalent about cheering on an Englishman.

 

I'd be interested to see if WWF tried touring Europe and the UK in particular before 1991.

[evilclown]

The stuff Chris just posted about WWF expansion is a tremendous piece of data.

[Matt D]

I think their positioning on that card was more to do with their bad behaviour out of the ring. That was their first match back wasn't it?

 

Anecdottally, there was a lot of LoD merch in school around that time. As much as there was Warrior and Bret Hart stuff. I've said it before but I don't really remember Bulldog being over huge with kids in school, but I was in Wales so some of them might have been ambivalent about cheering on an Englishman.

 

I'd be interested to see if WWF tried touring Europe and the UK in particular before 1991.

There was at least some TV build to Beverly Brothers vs Disasters. They had to earn their title shot. LOD vs Money Inc was just tossed out there. Granted, the Beverlys vs LOD feud was built up a lot better than either, but that's neither here nor there.

 

EDIT: One thing that's amazed me in watching late 1993-early 1994 WWF for really the first time is how regional it was. They'd mention what would traditionally be the C shows (high school gyms/benefits/etc.) during the normal commentary on the syndicated shows. Not even a Fink cut in or anything or a Face to Face. I'm talking about during the matches themselves and with Vince doing it, mentioning how Doink would be at so and so school gym. They'd mention some of the bigger shows during Raw. It was a major retrenching.

[JerryvonKramer]

A lot of off-camera title switches around that time too. Think they were trying to reinvigorate the house shows.

 

Also, I missed Chris's post on the page before. Wonderful resource.

[jdw]

Maple Leaf Wrestling was aligned with Crockett from 1978-84 but used WWF talent at times and it increased in 1982-83 but it was still a Crockett satellite group until Summer 1984.

They're a bit hard to define. I don't know if I would call them a satellite of JCP.

 

Toronto seemed to be its own territory: it had it's own group of guys who seemed to appear on the MLG cards.

 

It also used JCP talent, and it also used WWF talent. They also would bring in the AWA champ on occasion.

 

Backlund was there all the time up through early 1980. Graham's site is light on full card results as 1980 goes on, before getting fuller again in 1982.

 

It has more of a St. Louis feel: major city, limited local guys, largely drawing from all over the place for big matches.