WCW ongoing thread

[artDDP]

I remember watching the tag match at Havoc. Anyone could tell how it was going to end but the way it was done was so grand that I went completely bonkers cheering for Flair when he stomped Sting.

 

To contrast, that night ended with the comically atrocious beyond-insulting Hogan-Giant-Luger-Yeti angle. Which ultimately went nowhere.

[Kronos]

5488100[/url]']

I remember watching the tag match at Havoc. Anyone could tell how it was going to end but the way it was done was so grand that I went completely bonkers cheering for Flair when he stomped Sting.

 

To contrast, that night ended with the comically atrocious beyond-insulting Hogan-Giant-Luger-Yeti angle. Which ultimately went nowhere.

That's the thing: watching the buildup, it was clear where the story was headed. But this match was textbook storytelling. Everything is done so beautifully. Did anything more come of this angle with Sting's involvement? It seems perfect for a tag or singles match against Flair on the next PPV.

You mention that abortion of a main event. For more good, though, I wonder how DDP vs Johnny B Badd was? I know I really enjoyed their WW3 match around this time.

[Loss]

Flair and Sting had one of their better matches on Nitro the week after Havoc, but they were back to their normal routine by World War 3.

[Kronos]

5488129[/url]']

Flair and Sting had one of their better matches on Nitro the week after Havoc, but they were back to their normal routine by World War 3.

Sounds about right.

Speaking of Nitro, I am randomly watching the 9/11/00 episode. It's the one with the wedding of David Flair and Stacy K. 30 min in, and I have to shut it off. It's so very awful. It's exactly like TNA, if impact were in a large arena with a real crowd. It's ADD and ridiculous and has just about done my head in. I thought I might enjoy some so bad it's good. But no.

[artDDP]

That's the thing: watching the buildup, it was clear where the story was headed. But this match was textbook storytelling. Everything is done so beautifully. Did anything more come of this angle with Sting's involvement? It seems perfect for a tag or singles match against Flair on the next PPV.

You mention that abortion of a main event. For more good, though, I wonder how DDP vs Johnny B Badd was? I know I really enjoyed their WW3 match around this time.

Pretty much what Loss said about the Flair-Sting feud. They had a routine match at World War 3 the following month. The only thing that really stood out to me was Flair slapping Sting around while he trapped him in the figure-four.

 

I haven't watched the Badd-Page match in years. I remember it being very well-worked opening-card stuff with a white-hot crowd. WCW managed to kill it off by following up with a too-short match between Jerry Lynn and Sabu and the boredom of Meng vs. Lex Luger.

[Kronos]

Rick Martel vs Silver King -- Worldwide, Feb 1998?

 

Sub-5 min match, so not a whole lot to go on. but they work well together, and I wouldn't have minded seeing 10 or 15 min. Some stretching, some chain wrestling, an "I'm crazy!" bit with the camera by Silver King. Good times.

 

Rick Martel vs Eddie Guerrero -- Nitro, Feb 1998?

 

Ahh, Nitro Girls. :-) Eddie's so awesome in his entrance, making like he doesn't care even a little bit about the fans or the match. This one's another 4.5 min match. Martel looks really good here, press slamming Eddie and coming off the second rope for a lariat. Eddie does a great bit where he distracts the ref by complaining about Martel's allegedly pulling his hair during the armdrags, demonstrating on the ref what Martel supposedly did. EG was such a master of the little things.

 

I am going to watch Martel vs Booker T later tonight. Both of these matches, I believe, were leading into that PPV match. I'm curious how Martel holds up for 10+ minutes. Based on these matches, he looks really healthy.

[Mad Dog]

I watched the whole run a couple of weeks ago on Youtube. Martel looked pretty good throughout the whole run and appeared to be in fairly good ring shape by the end of it. People overrated it a bit but he really showed a lot. It's too bad really, I wonder what he would've done with a longer run with the company.

 

I thought he meshed well with Saturn in the ring too.

[Kronos]

I watched the whole run a couple of weeks ago on Youtube.

That's what I love so much about Youtube. I wasn't looking for Martel matches in WCW. I just noticed one, and there I went.

 

I'll keep an eye out for the Saturn matches. I didn't get a chance to see the Booker T match yet, either.

[El-P]

So, basically, after Flair feuded with Ricky Steamboat, Terry Funk, Sting and Lex Luger he's now engaged against.... JYD, with the whole deal being that JYD wants to be the first black world champion. Not exactly turning the world on fire, although I guess it was supposed to be just a transitionnal feud before Flair would face Sting at the next PPV anyway. Also, Woman just vanishes after Capital Combat, without any mention of her. So, basically, she didn't do anything between this time and 94 when she showed up in ECW ? I never realized before she went a good 3 years without being seen on TV.

The post Capital Combat scene really doesn't seem very interesting. Steiners vs Doom again, why not. But the idea of Sting ganging up with Tommy Rich, JYD and the returning Paul Orndorff (who I still can't buy as a face at all) against the Horsemen isn't very appealing to me.

[Loss]

Now you're knee deep in Ole Anderson booking. Ole brought in JYD, along with a few other guys like Buddy Landell and Paul Orndorff who were names a few years before this but hadn't meant anything in a while -- mainly because they worked cheap. It showed how out of it Ole was that he still thought race-baiting would draw this late.

 

They got rid of Woman because they decided that they liked Missy Hyatt better, and the thought was that there wasn't room to get two women over at the same time. They wrote her out by suspending her over bringing a foreign object into the ring at Capital Combat.

[El-P]

Now you're knee deep in Ole Anderson booking.

Oh, Lord help me.

 

Ole brought in JYD, along with a few other guys like Buddy Landell and Paul Orndorff who were names a few years before this but hadn't meant anything in a while -- mainly because they worked cheap. It showed how out of it Ole was that he still thought race-baiting would draw this late.

The most WTF and uncomfortable moment so far is hearing Cornette explaining that Flair would be humiliated by losing to the first black world champion, when no other black man could do it for the last 86 years. Hum... what ???

Flair did cut a decent promo talking about how he would have Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul (oh, the cultural references of the early 90's) at his arms and they would not talk about JYD.

 

They got rid of Woman because they decided that they liked Missy Hyatt better, and the thought was that there wasn't room to get two women over at the same time. They wrote her out by suspending her over bringing a foreign object into the ring at Capital Combat.

Well that was stupid since they were doing nothing with Missy except having her looking super hot next to JR on the Main Event and be a cunt. No room to get two women over at the same time ? Bringing back JYD to do the "first black world champion" deal (which was kinda odd since Doom just got the world tag team belts anyway) ? Hum... feel the progressive booking here... I have the feeling I won't enjoy the next months of TV as much as I did the first 5 of 1990...

[Loss]

You won't, although when the gauntlet concept starts in fall, you'll at least have that.

 

Which WCW shows are you watching? Power Hour? Worldwide? Pro? Saturday Night?

[El-P]

You won't, although when the gauntlet concept starts in fall, you'll at least have that.

 

Which WCW shows are you watching? Power Hour? Worldwide? Pro? Saturday Night?

Saturday Night & Main Event, plus Clashes & PPVs.

[Frankensteiner]

WCW takes a massive nosedive right around the summer. Instead of giving Sting some solid guys to work with, he had feuds with Sid and the Black Scorpion. Arn, who should have been carrying the TV shows as TV champ, had some of the most boring matches imaginable with dudes like Allen Ironeagle, Terry Taylor, and Tom Zenk. The tag scene was the only thing worth watching for the rest of the year.

 

As I wrote earlier in this thread, you will see a bunch of new guys debut but all of them will be really bad.

[El-P]

So, the build toward Clash 11 sucked (apart from a nice little Rock'n Roll vs Doom match), but the show itself was pretty good.

Good opener of Southern Boys vs Fabulous Freebirds, too short for the Freebirds to stall and waste time, and Hayes got most of the in-ring time. The Southern Boys clearly were the new blowjob tag team, as Pillman & Zenk got slip up just after losing the US titles to the MX, and they were awesome in that role. In term of offense, they really make the Rock'n Roll look like a thing of the past. So, nice little match, and the Southerner get the upset, I'm glad to see the Freebirds used to put younger teams over.

Some meaningless filler like Bam Bam vs Tommy Rich and Rotunda & Zenk vs SST (why did they went back to the SST name after being called the Wild Samoans once Samu left, I have no idea), but nothing offensive.

Mean Mark vs Flyin' Brian. Yeah, how goofy do those name look without any last name ? Pretty decent short match, but it's kinda sad to see Pillman go from feuding with Lex for the US title last year to be reduced to a glorified JTTS after the split with Zenk. El Gigante is clearly promoted as a special attraction freak, which is what he should be. The interview in espagnol was rather cool though.

Barry Windham vs Doug Furnas was a good short match. Barry is a bit fatter than when he left for WWF, but he's still awesome in the ring, smooth as hell. They do a good job puting over Furnas uncany strenghs, with some brutal tackles to which Barry takes great bumps. Furnas probably could have good single stints in WCW if he never went back touring with Kroffat in Japan. Here he took one of the greatest bump ever off a clothesline I've seen, just amazing.

Rock'n Roll Express vs Midnight Express never gets old, and it's an excellent match, but like I said, the Rock'n Roll appear dated with their offense at this point, while the MX are as relevant as ever. The usual good shit from these two teams, you feel they could have the same match in blindfolds. Not much heat put on Ricky, not much comedy, lot of action. MX are protected, obviously to feud with the Southern Boys.

The rip-off of the night was Luger vs Sid, a whopping 30 seconds, Luger upsets Sid. Yawn. I guess it protects Sid in more than one way since he was just surprised by a quick counter attack from Luger, and it kept him from having to work a consistent single match (which he has never done in WCW at this point), but still. Rip-off.

Doom vs Steiner Brothers : these two teams throwing bombs at each other just never gets old with me. This project really opened my eyes to Doom. Scott Steiner is a monster, here he does a backflip while holding Simmons (then Reed) in his arms. Usual match from these two teams, stiff, suplexes, questionnable babyface selling. Much better than the Doom vs RW matches.

Arn Anderson vs Paul Orndorff was another good match, with Orndorff looking crisp. The thin arm always distract me from time to time, but Orndorff's work was really solid, which was surprising after 3 years of layoff. Arn was Arn

Of course, Ric Flair vs JYD sucked, despite Flair's bumping, but at this point JYD was way beyond hope (although to me he always pretty much sucked, including in Mid-south). He no-sold a lot, Flair bumped around him but it was not a match, just a pinball around an immobile fat guy. Horsemen jump, the "Dude with attitudes" (worst name ever) show up, Sting challenges Flair for the Bash. Yaddi yaddi yadda. (and I hope Rocky King will disappear from my TV. Seriously, why a complete jobber got TV time to put emphasis on JYD ?? Because he was.... black... I guess... Oh, Ole...)

 

Some changes : Kevin Sullivan, Eddie Gilbert are nowhere to be seen, Norman is off TV too, Cactus is a jobber. The Road Warrior have left.

 

I was never a big fan, but the more I watch Sting, the more he comes off cheesy as hell and annoying. I know he was aimed at kids, but I get the feeling I would have hated him as a kid. Ricky Steamboat was cheesy in a "gentleman family man champion" way, but Sting just comes off like an overexcited clown who tries way too much to be fun. And really, "Dude with attitudes" ? Who's the brain surgeon who came off with that name ? After one year and a half of great feuds on top, yep, it has taken a nosedive.

[El-P]

Good things during the build to Great American Bash :

_Buddy Landell is on TV and gets a match with Pillman at the PPV. Landell's squashes are great.

_Good little Steiner Brothers vs Barry Windham & Arn Anderson TV match, which ends in a DQ like it should, but it's very solid, Arn & Windham really show as tag team specialists whoever their partner may be.

_Paul Orndorff looks really good all the time he's working, even in squashes, he's the saving grace of this ridiculous "Dudes with attitudes" faction.

_Sting finally getting serious on interviews.

 

Bad things : more Rocky King. This is ridiculous now, why is this jobber suddenly getting a role in pissing off the Horsemen and getting promo time ?

_More squash matches and less competitive matches on TV. Like Loss said, less Cornette and Teddy Long on color, and more Tommy Rich or whoever boring face shows up.

_Dutch Mantell is just teaming up with jobbers, which is a complete waste.

_And the production really sucks, with tons of people having no music at all, and Vader's arrival pimped by showing the same clip of him with his helmet in NJ over and over again with generic music instead of a kick-ass edited video of him killing people.

_Ole booking tons of stipulations to insure the Horsemen won't interfere, to the point of stacking up the odds really in favour of Sting. Well, not exactly the best way to build heat and anticipation to have your heel in a clear-cut defavorable situation. Kinda undermines Sting's victory to me...

[El-P]

Great American Bash 1990.07.07

 

Really good show overall thanks to strong tag matches and a cool under-undercard.

First 45 minutes was comprised of the most random, thrown together matches you can find at the time, with zero build. Buddy Landell vs Brian Pillman was really good, as expected. Landell is a guy I wish I could see more off, but he never had a really strong stint anywhere, it's a shame, as he was as good as anyone when he was on. Dutch Mantell vs Doug Furnas was pretty good too, although Furnas did look lost in some occurence, screwing up the last transition. Dirty Dutch is another of those super solid worker, and you can see the ring general guiding down Furnas, who's better off in tags with a smart guy like Kroffat. Mike Rotunda vs Iron Sheik was as good as a Shiek match can be in 90, I was shocked to actually enjoy it as much as I did; lots of suplexes which makes senses with these two, stiffness, really decent considering the Sheil's physical state. And Tommy Rich vs Harley Race was shocking in how much Race could still go at 47. He delivered about 90% of the offense (thankfully since Rich has none), basically kicking Rich's ass, and winning to boot. No idea why they threw that match in the card. Race was sporting his old "king" trunks, which was odd. Vader vs Z Man was the perfect way to introduce Vader, who got over big time.

The real strenghts of the PPV were the tag matches. I don't care if ot's an accepted fact by now, but Southern Boys vs Midnight Express is a fucking great match. One of the best of the decade in WCW. EVerything they try works, even the goofy karate contest. Great near-falls, great work, shitload of heat. A thing of beauty. Then you got the Steiner Brothers vs Fabulous Freebirds, which consist of the Steiner throwing the Freebirds around and not letting them rest. The Freebirds were basically dressed like Christmas Tree, and they got "Faggot "chants from the crowd, which is kind of uneasy. At some point, a small group of fans was clearly chanting "Michael is a bitch". Whaou. The Freebirds are climbing back into my good graces after letting the Steiners beat their ass like that, and I have to admit they got tons of heat. Doom vs Rock'n Roll Express was clearly a very good match, but they oddly got no heat whatsoever. Maybe it was because the crowd was spent, because it was the last match before Sting & Flair, but despite all their effort, they couldn't get the crowd into their match. Kinda sad. Doom's victory gets its share of cheers, the team was getting toward "they are so kick-ass we're chearing them anyway" territory.

The six man between the Horsemen and Orndorff, Gigante & JYD was an exercice in how to work around useless workers. Whenever Orndorff was in, the match was good, but when he got out, it quickly went nowhere. They milked Gigante a lot, but as soon as it's obvious he can't do anything you can feel the disapointment from the crowd. Lex Luger vs Mean Mark was decent at first, but Mark just doesn't do much in term of offense, and Luger just stopping selling to make his comeback kinda negates the idea of a big mean monster. Not good, but Luger was clearly the better of the two. I remembered Sting vs Flair not being anything special, but it was worst than that. Sting sucked, he no-sold left and right all match long, including no-sold the attack on his knee injury that nearly put him out. Stupid stuff. Flair was good, but STing acting like a superhero ruined the match to me, nothing made sense. He also applied the worst Scorpion ever. JYD match aside, this is probably one of Flair's worst title match ever at this point. I'm pretty sure Flair had much better matches with Hogan in 94 despite the hulking up.

[El-P]

How dull was the Summer of 1990 ? No fun heel color man along Ross or Caudle, so we get Ross by himself, which is not nearly as good as with Cornette. Or Ross with Caudle, which is boring.

I understand they didn't run as many angles back then, but still, seemingly nothing happens. Doom and the Rock'n Roll wait for a match together. The Steiners and the Samoan work some half-ass angle waiting for a match which I don't think will happen anyway as the Samoans were going to leave soon.

They did run a bizarre angle with Luger showing up late with teared up clothes, and Tommy Rich saying the Horsemen beat him up. In the following weeks, Luger would say nothing but would show up to watch the Horsemen in the ring. His silence and the way it was put together would make you think about a swerve and an eventual Luger heel turn, but maybe my mind has been polluted by modern wrestling booking. Anyway, in the end, nothing special comes from it, Luger is going to fight Flair for the US title at the early september Clash. Mmkay... Well, it meant that Flair was a step back from the World Title at this point, as they prepared Sid to feud with Sting. Did they think Flair had passed the torch successively to Sting and that he could be brought down the card a bit ?

And then you've got the beginning of the Black Scorpion angle. Really seems like they were already trying to outcartoon WWF all of a sudden. Did they have any idea of who should be put into the role, or did they just booked it Russo style with no idea of where to go ? I don't believe Flair was supposed to get the part at first. Anyway, I didn't know this shit started so soon in the year. I fear a burn out before the end of the year...

The summer was carried by undercards feud or mini-feud like Tommy Rich vs Buddy Landell (in which Landell was basically a JTTS), who had two fun matches, Arn Anderson having good matches with Pillman, Zenk and Luger, by Dutch Mantell having solid JTTS matches with Scott Steiner and Sting, and by the Midnights opposing Pillman & Z Man and the RnR. The best feud of the Summer actually involved the Freebirds, which was a shocker to me, against the Southern Boys. A cool three match series for the bogus "Southern Title" that the Freebirds supposedly won against the Southern Boys. It all ends with the surprise intervention of Buddy Roberts, and the involvment of Bullet Bob Armstrong showing up to back up his boy. Final 6 man match at the Clash. Solid matches, cool little feud, well built.

On the "WCW brainfart" series, Tim Horner worker as Starblazer (what was the idea ?), The Pearl (there the idea was very clear, create a nise-Great Muta actually played by Ranger Ross under a costume, needless to say, it failed) and most of all, Brad Armstrong new gimmick : the Candyman, as he's giving away candy to kids and his dressed with sugar cane candy motives on his trunks and boots. No logical explanation on why Brad Armstong is giving out candies. I guess the idea was that he was a pedophile of something.

More teams coming up, it's scary how many teams they were at the times. Nasty Boys debuting. The New Fantastics (with Jackie Fulton in place of Tommy Rogers, not exactly the same beast). The Master Blaster coming up... Ugh...

And Bob Holly in a competitive jobber squash, which gave us a cool Ric Flair vs Bob Holly match (cool in a curiosity kinda way, not in a good kinda way).

Going into Clash 12. WCW burn out looming.

[Matt D]

And then you've got the beginning of the Black Scorpion angle.

 

Going into Clash 12. WCW burn out looming.

Whatever it was. IT WORKED.

 

Re: Meltzer:

 

Highest drawing wrestling show on TBS through at least the end of 94 or so: 9/90 Mountain Madness Clash of Champions headlined by Sting vs. Black Scorpion and Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger which drew 2,769,000 households

[Frankensteiner]

Speaking of pedophile gimmicks, wait until the Juicer debuts.

 

This period from right around the Bash to probably January/February of '91 is the dark ages of WCW. I don't think I recall the company being this bad at any other point (although I stopped watching in early 2000 so it's possible that was worse).

 

The upshot is '91-'94 WCW is just awesome.

[Loss]

And then you've got the beginning of the Black Scorpion angle.

 

Going into Clash 12. WCW burn out looming.

Whatever it was. IT WORKED.

 

Re: Meltzer:

 

Highest drawing wrestling show on TBS through at least the end of 94 or so: 9/90 Mountain Madness Clash of Champions headlined by Sting vs. Black Scorpion and Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger which drew 2,769,000 households

 

Dave is right that watching that show, Flair and Luger come across as way bigger stars than Sting due to the crowd reaction and match quality difference between their match and Sting's match.

 

Yes, the thought in 1990 was that Flair's days on top were over after dropping the belt to Sting.

 

It's a shame you don't have Pro (not even the NY, Chicago versions, but the version hosted by Russell and the Freebirds), because more of the Freebirds/Southern Boys stuff played out there, and it was pretty fun.

 

*cough* 1990 Yearbook will have it *cough*

[Matt D]

So, just to be completely clear here, it was Flair/Luger which drew over the mystery of the Black Scorpion?

 

because people freaking love mysteries.

[Loss]

IIRC, the show peaked in quarter hours with Flair-Luger, but was still high for the final segment. The point was that to the average fan watching at home, because of the crowd reactions, Sting seemed like an afterthought compared to Flair and Luger.

[El-P]

Highest drawing wrestling show on TBS through at least the end of 94 or so: 9/90 Mountain Madness Clash of Champions headlined by Sting vs. Black Scorpion and Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger which drew 2,769,000 households

Really ? Well, I would guess it's thanks to Flair vs Luger again, which did big business earlier in the year. They didn't do much about the whole Black Scorpion except a few creepy promos. That would be enough to introduce a new character, but as far as selling a main event...

 

Speaking of pedophile gimmicks, wait until the Juicer debuts.

I can't wait.

 

This period from right around the Bash to probably January/February of '91 is the dark ages of WCW. I don't think I recall the company being this bad at any other point

It is pretty bad, and after the heighs of 1989, early 90, it can get pretty hard to watch.

 

The upshot is '91-'94 WCW is just awesome.

I mostly look forward to 92 and 94. Seems a long way to come though.

 

Dave is right that watching that show, Flair and Luger come across as way bigger stars than Sting due to the crowd reaction and match quality difference between their match and Sting's match.

I'm watching this very soon. I'm not sold on Sting at all thus far, Luger strikes me as a better worker even at this point and a bigger star too.

 

It's a shame you don't have Pro (not even the NY, Chicago versions, but the version hosted by Russell and the Freebirds), because more of the Freebirds/Southern Boys stuff played out there, and it was pretty fun.

I have whatever I can get for free basically. I'm not sure I could handle a third show per week though. I'll probably get Main Event for 91 as well, but not afterward. Too bad.

[El-P]

Man, I don't know if Clash 11 was the most watched, but it was sure a shitty show. Only two things made sense, the nice opener between the Freebirds and the Southern Boys, which was a good sprint, and the Flair vs Luger match and post match attack by Hansen. Flair vs Luger really tore down the house, and depsite one military press too many at the end, it was a better match than Capital Combat I thought. I love Flair putting small touches, like before delivering a hellish chop, he shouts right at the camera "Turner, Herd, that's for you !". Great stuff. Gotta love also how Hansen just bombed Luger right when you'd think Luger just was gonna win via count-out. The seeds were planted earlier when Hansen got enraged that Luger was ahead of him in the rankings, and it puts Luger on the rail for another excellent feud, so there you go.

But the rest of the show was just a mess. Tommy Rich and Hansen feuded during the Summer : no Rich vs Hansen match, instead Rich got Bill Irwin, back as a JTTS from nowhere, and Hansen killed Zenk, which was good for what it was, but still. Rock'n Roll and Doom planted the seeds for a big tag team championship match : neither were on the card. The Steiner won the US belt on a house show and got to kill two jobbers here. WTF ? Why not put the match on TV at least ? No Arn TV title match. Hell, the Horsemen weren't even there to watch Sting or Flair. The Nasties vs Jackie Fulton & Red Rooster (oups) was decent and a good way to showcase the new team, but did we really need the Master Blasters ? Man, Nash looked jacked. Realize that this guy is still on your TV in WWE now... And a woman match between Bambi and Susan Sexton, whoever the hell they are ? Again WTF, although you gotta love how JR says "Woman's wrestling has evolved in the last few years. There aren't as many woman wrestler now, it's a little bit more isolated". Basically "This doesn't matter at all, I have no idea why this is on the card either people." Sometimes Ross is great for these kind of things. And of course, Sting vs Black Scorpion Perez sucked, and you can feel the heat die down as soon as the Scorpion undress and reveal Random Masked Wrestler #6592. The whole "The Real Black Scorpion is on the ramp" is neat in a hindsight kayfaybe way, because obviously, Sting learned from the Black Scorpion during the nWo years.

Anyway, shitty show, one excellent match. Flair and Luger were obviously the two biggest star although Sting was over, but he wasn't helped at all with this horrible angle.

Best thing to come to me is Luger vs Stan.