WWF Ongoing Thread

[El-P]

Kwang was the guy who entered #2 with Scotty? Lord in heaven, was he ever a lame Kabuki/Muta wannabe. (ironic, since Kabuki himself was in the fucking rumble)

No, I think either Samu or Fatu entered #2. Man, I remember way too much useless stuff. Kwang entered later and was eliminated by Diesel. Yeah, not a good gimmick at all for Savio.

[Kronos]

Kwang was the guy who entered #2 with Scotty? Lord in heaven, was he ever a lame Kabuki/Muta wannabe. (ironic, since Kabuki himself was in the fucking rumble)

No, I think either Samu or Fatu entered #2. Man, I remember way too much useless stuff. Kwang entered later and was eliminated by Diesel. Yeah, not a good gimmick at all for Savio.

 

That's right. I was Scott Steiner, then a Headshrinker, then Rick Steiner, then Kwang (who misted Rick immediately).

[Death From Above]

Or maybe the crowd just likes making the dog noises when Rick enters.

I always thought Rick Steiner would make the most AMAZING junior high school/middle school gym teacher.

[Kronos]

I always thought Rick Steiner would make the most AMAZING junior high school/middle school gym teacher.

He looks a lot like the guy from whom I studied jujitsu in 2009 before I went back to being fat and lazy.

[Kronos]

Ultimate Warrior vs Sgt. Slaughter - Royal Rumble, 1/19/91

 

Sarge looks fat and slow, and he's saddled with a difficult gimmick. His prematch promo is crazy over the top, though, and I kind of love him for it. Warrior cuts yet another of his insane promos. I don't know how the Mean Genes of the world handled him without laughing or shaking their heads in amazement. The match itself starts really strong, with Warrior destroying Adnan and his flag. Sarge bumps like crazy for him, until Sherri and Savage run in and cause havok, leaving UW beaten up and struggling to crawl back to the ring. This segment and the bearhug soon after threaten to bring the match to a screaming halt, though, which is too bad because it's been exciting until then. Warrior gets his hulk-up bit, Sarge shows off his Iron Sheik boots, and things start rolling some more. Sherri proves she's crazy and wonderful when she gets thrown over half way across the ring, over the top rope, and onto Savage on the floor. And then the ending, which is supposed to be all shocking but really is kind of a letdown.

 

Slaughter's skills at pacing the match and working the crowd carry things here. But because he's not in his physical prime, they definitely need Warrior's coke-infused energy to keep it rolling. For the most part, Slaughter is able to harness that energy and make things work. I am not one of those people that hates Warrior. And I like him here. But he needed Slaughter's experience to take his wild, flailing enthusiasm and use it for some actual storytelling.

 

A good match which does a nice job of setting up the Savage/Warrior feud into Mania. Incidentally, is that a "Bullshit!" chant after the match?

 

Ultimate Warrior vs. The Macho King Randy Savage, 1/21/91

Savage: "Lord Alfred Hayes, you're everything that you think you are. But you're a figment of your imagination!" Doesn't that sound like something Foley would say a few years later? I love Sherri's freaky makeup and her wild bouncing around in the background. I love Sherri Martel in general.

 

The beginning is batshit, with Savage hiding behind the chairs and ambushing Warrior, leading to a brawl outside the cage. Once they get into the ring, I have to agree with OJ that the bulk of the match is downright dull. It takes them a good 10 min to remember they even have a cage, and then we get the ridiculous conclusion with Warrior reaching through the cage and holding Savage my his hair.

 

Because it's Warrior, we will get some misogyny. Sherri gets choked, stripped, and later gorilla slammed. (I think I remember her saying in her shoot that it hurt quite a lot when he dropped her on her tits.) This match is important for the feud, but it was pretty damned boring.

[BBscout]

How about the cut to the back with Kabuki and Tenryu laying a beat down on somebody. The look he gives the refs that are breaking it up is priceless.

[ohtani's jacket]

Watched a couple of things, none of which really grabbed me. The Doink vs. Marty Jannetty 2/3 falls match was okay for a 1993 WWF match but I didn't get the sense that it was some kind of hidden gem. Watched the Regal vs. Austin strap match from 2001 as well and thought that was also predictable. After that, I tried to get some kind of Savage tribute going and watched a match against Steamboat from Houston, but it was after Wrestlemania III and I didn't see much point in a match after the blow off. It was also a pro-shot match with no commentary which was a bit weird.

[Frankensteiner]

Randy Savage vs. Bret Hart, Saturday Night's Main Event, 11/28/87

 

I just got done watching & cataloging all of my Pro/WWW discs from 86-88 so maybe I'm overrating this match because it's such a contrast to Crockett matches of the time but wow, is this match terrific. It's a really well focused match and I felt there was no wasted time at all. Both guys bump around huge in the first part while the focus becomes Savage's leg after the commercial break.

 

I guess you can also say this match is a testament to WWF production at the time because everything on these SNME shows was so well laid out, produced, and booked that most of the matches were at worst at least somewhat entertaining. But this is still a great match and every bit as good as anything I've seen on NWA TV that year save for Flair-Windham.

[Victator]

Because it's Warrior, we will get some misogyny. Sherri gets choked, stripped, and later gorilla slammed

You mean he beat up the person who has attacked him on numerous occasions unprovoked, including costing him the WWF championship days before? How is that misogyny?

[Frankensteiner]

Randy Savage vs. Ted Dibiase, SNME 3/12/88

I recall liking some of the matches in this feud (a couple from MSG and Milwaukee) so I was excited about the match-up but this was disappointing. The match really had no purpose other than to set up the Hogan-Savage/Dibiase-Andre situation for WrestleMania. The wrestling was non-descript for the most part. The transitions were middling and this never got out of 2nd gear.

 

Randy Savage vs. One Man Gang, SNME 4/30/88

On the other hand, this was a fun all-action match billed as Savage’s first televised WWF Title defense. Really well laid out. I like the way Gang moves around, the way he sells damage and just carries his weight around. Savage was impressive, looking like he was going 100 mph on offense.

[El-P]

Because it's Warrior, we will get some misogyny. Sherri gets choked, stripped, and later gorilla slammed

You mean he beat up the person who has attacked him on numerous occasions unprovoked, including costing him the WWF championship days before? How is that misogyny?

 

Simple. A man beating a woman is misogyny.

[MJH]

Pah. Chivalry is sexist .

 

Actually, isn't it about time wrestling had a serious man vs. woman feud based around the man being feminist/egalitarian and turned the whole "cooking, cleaning and making babies" sexism storyline on its head?

[Victator]

Because it's Warrior, we will get some misogyny. Sherri gets choked, stripped, and later gorilla slammed

You mean he beat up the person who has attacked him on numerous occasions unprovoked, including costing him the WWF championship days before? How is that misogyny?

 

Simple. A man beating a woman is misogyny.

 

So Sherri was guilty of misandry?

[El-P]

Because it's Warrior, we will get some misogyny. Sherri gets choked, stripped, and later gorilla slammed

You mean he beat up the person who has attacked him on numerous occasions unprovoked, including costing him the WWF championship days before? How is that misogyny?

 

Simple. A man beating a woman is misogyny.

 

So Sherri was guilty of misandry?

 

What ?

 

A 270 pound man beating on a woman is just wrong, I don't care if she's a heel. Any man beating on a woman is fucking wrong, and babyface should not touch women.

 

That was the whole deal about Chyna and what made her cool at the beginning, she was a amazonian female, but babyface wouldn't touch her because she was a woman. Then the first time Austin stunned her the pop was huge because it finally meant something and came after a one year build of Chyna fucking up men without ever getting a receit. You'll tell me I'm hypocritical then taking this example, but Austin at this time was a unique case of an asshole babyface, and Chyna was sold as being as strong as tough as any men.

 

Warrior bullying Sherri Martel is different, it's just stupid shit that a babyface should never do. Remember how much heat Jake got for one slap to Liz. That worked and was sold as an heinous act. I wish things had stayed that way. That's one of the worst thing ECW brought to wrestling, making babyface violence again women totally acceptable. Of course It had been done in the 80's already but not to the point of becoming banal and even cool. The Duds putting women through tables and getting huge pop was everything wrong about the Attitude era audience. I hated that.

[El-P]

Actually, isn't it about time wrestling had a serious man vs. woman feud based around the man being feminist/egalitarian and turned the whole "cooking, cleaning and making babies" sexism storyline on its head?

Maybe. And time for an arab muslim babyface. And a gay angle that actually makes it allright to be gay and doesn't involve rubbing you own body. It's wrestling though. Dream on.

[MJH]

Of course.

 

But the only difference between Warrior/Sherri and Warrior/Heenan is that Bobby was male and Sherri female. Hell, Sherri was actually presented as a wrestler - as much as being a woman's wrestler means anything in the States. There's a big difference between hitting Sherri, who'd interfere constantly and kick guys when they were down, and beating up a woman for the sake of beating up a woman.

 

You missed the Richard Dawkins inspired atheist, by the way.

[El-P]

There is a difference, and that's why it was "acceptable". But still, I have an issue with a 270 pds male babyface doing anything physical to a woman.

I did not have a problem with Sunny getting slopped. That's basic comedy stuff, and that was a great payoff. Sherri getting bullied, well, even when Terry Funk does it, I don't like that very much. Of course she was so good she would make it fun to watch thanks to her bumping and selling. But in strict kayfaybe sense, I didn't like it, it felt wrong.

The valet is interfering ? Fuck up her guy. Make her look stupid.

[MJH]

I understood what you meant, and that's fair enough, everyone has their individual level of where their lines of acceptance lie. I haven't got a problem myself with a guy hitting a woman if he'd hit a guy for doing the same thing. Maybe I'm alone in that. I don't know if I could do so personally (and I've had girl friends stare all hell at me for saying so) but I'm not going to disagree with them, either, when they say "anytime you treat women as weaker than men you're being sexist". I've certainly no problem admitting I know a fair amount of girls who - even if I were to try and fight them - could handily kick my ass.

 

There was a match in ARSION some time, I forget when or where, only I'm pretty sure it involved Apache, Hidaka I think, and maybe Mika Akino. Presumably the other girl was one of the Apache girls, and as far as I recall, they didn't play up the gender thing. Apache wasn't doing his surprise kisses or anything; they just did their match as if it were 4 guys or 4 girls, and I thought it was great that they did.

[El-P]

I don't know if I could do so personally (and I've had girl friends stare all hell at me for saying so) but I'm not going to disagree with them, either, when they say "anytime you treat women as weaker than men you're being sexist".

That's PC feminism bullshit. Women are physiologically weaker than men. Of course women who do combat sports or who are though girl could kick my weak ass in a snap, but on average, women are smaller and weaker than men, it's just a fact. Thousands of women die every year because they are beat down by men. Sometimes you just can't argue against nature.

 

And I know what I'm talking about. I've slapped my girlfriend under the influence of alcohol (both of us drunk). She didn't mind, because she's that kind of girl, but still, makes you feel like a complete and utter shitbag.

I've also been in the situation where a hysterical woman under the influence can drive you crazy to the point of you wanting to beat the crap out of her just so she would calm the fuck down and shut up. The only reasonnable thing a man should do is punch the wall, hurt your fist and get the fuck out of the room. Or if you're able to control yourself, physically hold her down without hurting her until she cools off, which usually isn't easy, and results in you getting hit multiple times.

 

You don't hit a woman, period.

 

There was a match in ARSION some time, I forget when or where, only I'm pretty sure it involved Apache, Hidaka I think, and maybe Mika Akino. Presumably the other girl was one of the Apache girls, and as far as I recall, they didn't play up the gender thing. Apache wasn't doing his surprise kisses or anything; they just did their match as if it were 4 guys or 4 girls, and I thought it was great that they did.

I don't have an issue with those kind of serious intergender matches because they are treated like just an athletic contest, and if done right, especially when you work a lighter lucha influenced style, it can work fine. Those ARSION matches with Apache were lot of fun. I loved him working with his daughters too.

[Kronos]

Mark Henry vs The Rock, Judgment Day: In Your House 10/18/98

 

Henry opens with a terrible promo dedicated to Chyna, including a poem expressing his desire to have children with her. One thing Henry had going for him then -- and he sometimes still does today -- is that when he's not being a badass angryface, he often has an expression that seems to say that he can't believe he's getting to do this.

 

Rocky comes out guns blazing. He looks thicker here than in his chiseled later years. Henry doesn't know many moves, as JR and King repeatedly point out. It's not a squash match -- if only because he gets the pinfall following interference by D-Lo -- but Henry does essentially get beaten up for 6 min.

 

Mark Henry vs Undertaker, SD! 2/10/06

 

Solid TV match. Henry shows himself to be a monster early on, particularly in a great shoulder block spot that puts 'Taker on his ass. They try to trade hiptosses, but Taker can't lift Henry. It takes Henry to slip up and crash to the floor, which leaves him dazed enough for Taker to get the momentum (watch for a gorgeous kick to Henry's head). Henry does a great job of selling the shots to the head, stumbling around the ring. He gets a few good shots in, but eventually Taker has enough momentum that he gets a pinfall after a chokeslam. It's a bit weird that he can't do a hiptoss early, but he can do a chokeslam? That's Taker for ya, though.

 

There's a chaotic run-in from MNM. It's amusing how much smaller Nitro and Mercury are compared to Taker. Davari gets chokeslammed from about 7 feet in the air. And then Angle comes into the ring and german suplexes everyone. A silly ending, apart from Davari getting slammed. But Henry looked really good in this match. He felt a bit like Vader, selling well for his opponent but still coming across as a Supertough Big Guy.

 

Mark Henry vs Undertaker, Unforgiven 9/16/17

 

I am not sure of the story here. I guess Henry put Taker out of action for several months? (the recap is clipped on the video I am watching) This match is Taker's big return. Start s out strong, with Henry backing down from the faceoff and getting punched like a heavybag in the corner. Henry kick's Taker in the face and is rewarded with a serious look which screams "shoot pissed off". Taker doesn't look as fluid here as he did in the Feb 06 match. The momentum is off. Things wake up towards the end when Taker starts to hit his signature spots leading to a nearfall. I like Taker breaking out of the bearhug by choking Henry. Very nice modified Last Ride for the win.

 

It's not a sloppy match, but it's a bit of a boring one for a PPV Main Event.

 

Aside: I love JBL on commentary. The crowd is pretty quiet, and he sells it like a sign of respect. "They are just sitting here watching." Normally, I enjoy him for his insults, but that was some good broadcasting right there.

 

Aside Two: Undertaker has perhaps the most epic entrance in rasslin history. And it takes frakkin forever. I always fast forward it these days.

 

Mark Henry vs Batista, SD! 1/18/08

 

I like Batista a lot more than I used to do, though this match isn't anything special. Some pretty basic back and forth. Batista does this bizarre shoulder attack in the corner where he kicks his leg back behind him first. It looks like a knee strike, but the announcers call it a shoulder strike (and I am inclined to agree). There's a good spot where Dave goes for the pin after a spear, and Henry doesn't just kick out; he throws Batista off of him.

 

Throwaway 6 min match, but the crowd is lively. BTW, what is with Henry squeezing his eyes shut tightly to show he's angry?

 

Mark Henry vs HHH, RAW 6/23/08

 

Apparently, Henry is only good for 5-6 min on free TV, because that's all he keeps getting. This match is basically Haitch's babyface formula of getting beaten up for awhile and then coming back to win at the last moment. But it works, keeping the crowd involved. Henry throws a Vader Bomb and goes for the pin with that goofy smile I mentioned above.

 

I like how much Henry is willing to sell for his opponents. Watching these matches, I don't think it ever makes him look weak. And it allows a bit of drama.

 

Mark Henry vs Rey Mysterio, SD! 4/29/11

 

Crazy Heel Henry is pretty awesome, and modern Rey is a good punching bag to get a heel over (see also: Batista last year). Fun squash that builds on the story of Henry's heel turn and then feeds into the Cody story as Rey is stopped from his comeback by a run-in.

 

Terrific energy from Henry.

[Kronos]

Unforgiven 1999

Really solid PPV almost top to bottom. And Vince has got to dream of crowds that blazing hot. King's juvenile commentary got annoying at times. Also random: D-X were really obsessed with dicks and gayness. From X-Pac's bronco buster to "suck it" to Road Dogg acting like he was gonna buttfuck Edge. Very weird.

Val Venis vs Steve Blackman - fairly forgettable opener.

Mark Henry vs D-Lo - I was shocked at how good this one turned out to be. Henry moves like a guy half his size, and it's really the first time I've ever liked Brown.

Chyna vs Jarrett - JJ obviously carried the match. But he bumped really well for Chyna, and I had always heard how he refused to make her look good. Fun ending, especially with Mae and Moolah "suplexing" Jeff. I am not comfortable with Chyna beating up the ref afterwards. It's not a good guy thing to do, and she was definitely the face in the match.

Acolytes vs Dudley - acceptable but dull tag match. I have never been a Dudley fan, except in their feud with Beer Money.

Ivory vs Luna - hardcore match took place backstage. Physical and more vicious than some IWA-MS matches I've seen.

NAO vs Edge + Christian - great fun, and I can't believe how OVER Road Dogg was. E&C were actually a bit bland here.

Bossman vs Al Snow - dog kennel from hell. DUD. Easily the most boring match of the night.

Jericho vs X-PAC - nice fast paced cruiserweight exhibition.

6Pack Challenge - insanely great! Edge of your seat excitement and great performances from everyone. Even a bit of payoff with the refs on strike angle they ran all night. It never ceases to amaze me how well Kane and Show moved in those days. And again, Vince should be so lucky to get crowds half that excited these days.

Interesting that Taker was on the poster. Did he get hurt, and then not come back until BikerTaker after the first if the year? I know they lost Austin not long after this. Hard times for them.

[artDDP]

Yeah, Bulldog was a late scratch for 'Taker from what I remember.

 

Similarly, wasn't X-Pac a late scratch for Ken Shamrock, who I think just quit the promotion a week before that match?

 

I remember Wade's review of that match for some reason. He was upset that X-Pac audibly called a spot and Jim Ross brushed it off as "talking trash". He said in this day and age the announcers should just say that the wrestlers are calling spots.

[Kronos]

Yeah, Bulldog was a late scratch for 'Taker from what I remember.

 

Similarly, wasn't X-Pac a late scratch for Ken Shamrock, who I think just quit the promotion a week before that match?

 

I remember Wade's review of that match for some reason. He was upset that X-Pac audibly called a spot and Jim Ross brushed it off as "talking trash". He said in this day and age the announcers should just say that the wrestlers are calling spots.

They sold it as Shamrock being injured. I can't possibly imagine Shamrock would have had a better match with Jericho than Waltman did, so it's for the best. I didn't notice the spot being called. But your brain does become tired 2+ hrs into a show.

[Ricky Jackson]

What the hell, I'll fire this puppy back up with:

 

Bob Backlund vs Harley Race, WWF title vs NWA title, 9/22 1980 MSG

 

Just watched this for the first time. Really good match. I'm surprised it doesn't get pimped more often as one of Backlund's better MSG matches. Great crowd heat, no commentary, both guys juice, and yes the finish is weak, but its WWF title vs NWA title, so you know it's not going to end decisively. And for whatever it's worth, nobody could work a headlock spot like Bob. Definitely track this one down if you're a fan of Backlund and/or Race.

[NintendoLogic]

Jake Roberts vs. Ricky Steamboat, MSG 5/19/86

Jake Roberts vs. Ricky Steamboat, Spectrum 5/31/86

 

I forgot that Steamboat's original WWF theme was Sirius. That's such a kick-ass theme for the intro to a grudge match. Steamboat looks AWESOME waiting for Roberts in MSG. These are essentially the same match with the same ref spots and the same finish. The Spectrum match is a bit longer for no other reason than it's slower than the MSG match, but the brawling looks a thousand times better than MSG because of the camera set-ups. One of the things I noticed when we did the WWF poll over at Smarkschoice was how shitty the MSG camera work was, but here it makes Steamboat look like a woman. Everybody knows that you have to shoot punches and most other contact in wrestling from an angle that hides the daylight, but it seems as though the MSG guys didn't know how to shoot wrestling. It's a shame really because MSG usually had better heat than Philly. Neither match is great, but fun in a continuation of the feud kind of way. They have a pull apart at the end where they keep doing Lou Thesz press takedowns and punching each other while midcard acts coming running out to separate them. That reminds me of how excited I used to be when people came running out to help. There was always that anticipation of "Who's it gonna be? Who's it gonna be?"

Have you seen their 8/9/86 Boston Garden match? The last time I saw it, it blew me away. I'd rate it as a top 20 match in company history, possiibly top 10.