2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[FLIK]

My biggest problem with Apter is that we really don't know how impactful *inside* the magazine he was.

I'm blanking on the details atm but about a year back Meltzer did a really long radio int with Apter whear they went into a lot of that stuff

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think Madden at the Torch is analogous to Apter at the PWI for reasons that are pretty obvious.

 

Apter taking the pictures was a pretty big deal since the sales were driven in large part by the pics on the cover. Do I know that Apter was the one with relationship with promoters? Not beyond question I guess. Can I infer it by the fact that he was both the public face of the mags and the guy that was actually on the ground taking pics/covering shows? Yes. The fact that he didn't work first hand with John on a PWI article or whatever the case was really doesn't surprise me. I don't consider Apter's strength as a candidate his editorial skills. I would vote for Apter for much the same reason I voted for Kent Walton - he got tons of talent over on a national level.

 

For the record I think Weston should have been a fiat pick in the first class.

[khawk20]

Apter was the public face of the mag, but he really wasn't the reason any of us bought those fuckers. Did anyone here buy any of those mags specifically to read an Apter piece?

I enjoyed the columns first and foremost, and I know that Apter's section was always the first one I turned to. Back in the day when all you could do was read about most of the areas he covered with his tidbits, it was by far the most impactful for me.

 

I contrast this with a magazine like Wrestling World, which had lengthy sections for several geographic areas in every magazine. Those covered every area in far more detail (in terms of wrestlers in the area, feuds, etc.), but the way it was written never made me go back to the magazine right away..it was hit or miss whether I bought it (mostly miss).

 

Given that, I conclude that Apter's writing style in those mags had to have had some draw for me, and while his column wasn't the only reason I bought those ones, it was definitely a "hook".

[FLIK]

Rocco is the guy (who we have footage of, as opposed to a George Kidd) with the reputation in Britain as being the best worker. Saint wasn't/isn't too far behind him, though.

Reading up about him, George Kidd really does seems like the guy who more then anyone should be on the Euro ballot.

 

Like MJH said there's almost no footage of him available (all I could find was 1 3 min match on youtube near the end of his career) but he's a guy with a very strong rep. It's mentioned a bunch that he's Kent Walton's fave wrestler but every other account i've read about him from either other wrestlers, reporters or just fans who saw him has them talking about him as an elite lvl guy who was the best of his generation. Besides the in ring skill he's also got the paper resume of being World Lightweight champ either straight or atleast for the majority of 20 to 30 yrs (depending on which source you look at) from the 50's through 70's. Don't know to what degree he was involved but he also was atleast part of promoting and a major star for the Wrestling Federation of Great Britain in the 60's & 70's which appeared to have had some success as an alternative to Joint Promotions though no whear near as big.

[jdw]

Apter taking the pictures was a pretty big deal since the sales were driven in large part by the pics on the cover.

Bill wasn't the only person taking pictures that made the cover. In fact, we don't even know if he took most of the pictures that were on the cover. They had other photogs on the staff, and also got photos from quite a few people not on the staff.

 

 

Do I know that Apter was the one with relationship with promoters? Not beyond question I guess. Can I infer it by the fact that he was both the public face of the mags and the guy that was actually on the ground taking pics/covering shows? Yes.

Again, he wasn't the guy always on the ground taking photos. There were simply too many shows around the country in the territorial era for him to be at all of them, taking shots of everything.

 

Come the Expansion Era, the WWF tossed non-WWF photogs out of ringside for ages. You really think Bill took that classic picture of Hogan's head on the spear to put over Kamala, or that someone back in the office did the equiv of photoshop.

 

There really is no inference that he was the only one dealing with all the promoters around the country to put together the pieces.

 

 

The fact that he didn't work first hand with John on a PWI article or whatever the case was really doesn't surprise me. I don't consider Apter's strength as a candidate his editorial skills. I would vote for Apter for much the same reason I voted for Kent Walton - he got tons of talent over on a national level.

The difference is that we can actually see Walton on all of those TV shows.

 

With Apter, we're pulling it out of our asses.

 

It's a bit like giving Tunney all the credit for the WWF in the Expansion Era as the Pete Rozell of the WWF. Except... we've have the WON's of the era to clue us into Vince being the real Rozell.

 

With the Apter mags... we've got dick.

 

 

For the record I think Weston should have been a fiat pick in the first class.

I know: you said that earlier in the thread.

 

Beyond Weston, we don't know enough about Weston's mags to give 100% or even 50% or even 33% of the credit to Bill.

 

* * * * *

 

On Kevin's point about Apter's columns... I don't even remember them at all. Matt Brock and Eddie Ellner were the only "authors" who really carved out any clear writing style in the mags. Brock was fake, and Eddie was an act. The rest was largely interchangeable, be it the newswire stuff (which no doubt staffers cobbled together similar to the newswire sections in papers) or the articles on wrestlers/feuds/matches. They all came across like the office put together, even stuff under Bill's byline.

 

I wouldn't put to much credit onto Bill for anything that ran under his byline in the magazine if we're trying to claim he was spending all his time on the road taking all the pictures that appeared mag. It's a bit of a catch-22. These weren't the days of the net where Bill could send an e-mail with his article. The glory days were also in the days before faxes were widely available, and it's not like Bill on the road travelled with a typewriter that he could slap something together and fax it to New York.

 

I think there's a generation of us who read them before moving onto the WON and other sources who have fond memories and want to give credit to "someone". Since he was the "face", Bill is the one folks want to give it to. It's far better to simply give it to Weston and be done with it. He goes back a long time on doing those mags, especially to an era where it would have been rather hard to send Bill out to the west coast to cover Blassie vs Destroyer and Stevens vs Pepper.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I'm well aware that Apter wasn't the only person taking photos. He's said so himself and credited others with some of the best pics ever in the mags many times.

[khawk20]

On Kevin's point about Apter's columns... I don't even remember them at all....

I wouldn't put to much credit onto Bill for anything that ran under his byline in the magazine if we're trying to claim he was spending all his time on the road taking all the pictures that appeared mag.

Apter didn't really have a byline under any of the articles that appeared in the mags. His columns were all news bits and tidbits from around the country...."Mr. Wrestling II is headed to Georgia to battle Ken Patera", "Jim Brunzell pinned Nick Bockwinkel in a non-title match in Madison, Wisconsin", "dusty Rhodes is furious that Jos Leduc pulled a fast one on him during a tag match in Florida", and so on. Stuff like that.

 

His columns never took on a singular theme. It was the random tidbit aspect of them, at a time when you could only read about most of these guys outside of your own area, that made his stuff appealing.

 

That column was a good springboard into any of the articles about those same guys that might appear in other places in the magazine.

[jdw]

And that was my point: it was the equiv of a Wire Clippings section in a newspaper where staffers put bits and pieces of news items together. Did Bill really write it, or was his byline simply slapped on it.

 

John

[Matt D]

On Kevin's point about Apter's columns... I don't even remember them at all....

I wouldn't put to much credit onto Bill for anything that ran under his byline in the magazine if we're trying to claim he was spending all his time on the road taking all the pictures that appeared mag.

Apter didn't really have a byline under any of the articles that appeared in the mags. His columns were all news bits and tidbits from around the country...."Mr. Wrestling II is headed to Georgia to battle Ken Patera", "Jim Brunzell pinned Nick Bockwinkel in a non-title match in Madison, Wisconsin", "dusty Rhodes is furious that Jos Leduc pulled a fast one on him during a tag match in Florida", and so on. Stuff like that.

 

His columns never took on a singular theme. It was the random tidbit aspect of them, at a time when you could only read about most of these guys outside of your own area, that made his stuff appealing.

 

That column was a good springboard into any of the articles about those same guys that might appear in other places in the magazine.

 

There was the little weekly Apter rant on Pro Wrestling This Week, each one usually having a very specific topic and just a bit of a twist.

[khawk20]

And that was my point: it was the equiv of a Wire Clippings section in a newspaper where staffers put bits and pieces of news items together. Did Bill really write it, or was his byline simply slapped on it.

 

John

I never really thought about it like that, but him putting those little bits together for his column wouldn't surprise me.

[tomk]

Steve Yohe:

Hiroshi Tanahashi—I see him as a “no-brainier” pick but I see him as being in the line behind Rikidozan, Baba, & Inoki as the next great star. Don’t know if that will happen but I see him as Japan’s biggest star. I think he’s got “it”. I know he’s been on top for a few years but I still think he’s a kid. Might still vote for him, but I’d like to wait.

Anyone know what Tanahashi, Yohe has seen?

 

Nagata, Akiyama, Kojima, and Takayama all quickly fell off with under 10 %. Has Ohtani ever been a cadndidate? I don't think Tenzan, or Fujita have ever been or (really ever should be) candidates. Sasaki isn't on and I don't think people think of him as a no brainer. And honestly I would have no problem with none of those guys making it in HOF.

 

That said it's really odd to me that Tanahashi is considered a no brainer when I'm not sure if he has achieved as much as any of the guys from the generation of underachievers before him.

[jdw]

Ask Steve over on WC. Suspect he'll answer. I've got nothing since I don't recall ever talking much about Tanahashi with him.

 

John

[kjh]

The difference with Tanahashi to the previous generation (Nagata, Akiyama, Tenzan, Kojima, etc) is the promotion decided to make him the top star of the promotion and stuck with it. Did any of them have a five year run as ace? I wouldn't call him a no-brainer, but if Tanahashi isn't HOF worthy, then nobody in Japan is post 2005.

[KrisZ]

Still too early to put Tanahashi in. He has way more to go in his career.

[jdw]

He shouldn't even be on the fucking ballot next year. He'll still be 35. He debuted in 1999. For fuck's sake... why are we still rushing people on like that? Didn't Dave change the rules after Angle?

 

John

[Bix]

The post-Angle requirements are 15 years or 35 years of age with at least 10 years full-time as a wrestler.

[MJH]

What Tanahashi has amongst current "stars" in Japan is that you (well, certainly I) could see him positioned in a same role in previous, more successful generations; it was clear from the start he'd end up there. Now, that doesn't make him a HOF candidate, but it at least doesn't make him the sorriest of names put forward either.

[jdw]

The post-Angle requirements are 15 years or 35 years of age with at least 10 years full-time as a wrestler.

I guess the 10 year is the only change he made?

 

For christ's sake... I never thought the Big Change was that level of stupid.

 

John

[tomk]

More pin the wisemen on their charges for the Backlund era. I'm making lots of guesses so if I've fucked up, tell me.

 

I don't think Meltzer believes that Backlund is the draw during this period.

 

Wizard still manages Graham.

 

Maybe I should also look at the Bruno opponents. Zbysco didn't have manager.

 

I'm pretty sure Blassie is managing Khan during the Andre feud and Sheik during the Slaughter one. Not sure.

 

My memory is that Patterson managed by heel Wizard turns face when contract sold to Albano, then had matches with Albano but didn't really face any Albano charges. Maybe should go through who managed heels in IC matches for this period too. But for symmetry will stick with matches with World Title holder.

 

1978

 

Minimum of three matches where heel managed by Wizard.

Minimum of two where heel managed by Albano.

I think there are a minimum of two where heel managed by Blassie.

Is Blassie still with Arion at this point?

Is Blassie already managing Steele?

Is Patera still with Albano or is he with Wizard?

I put Blassie with Maivia but don’t know if he was already managing Maivia for first Backlund match.

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 20, 1978

Superstar Billy Graham defeated WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund at 18:31 when the match was stopped due to cuts over the champion's left eye( WIZARD)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 24, 1978

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Superstar Billy Graham in a steel cage match by escaping the cage after the challenger's foot became entagled in the cage (WIZARD)

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 22, 1978

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Ken Patera

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 26, 1978

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Spiros Arion

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 24, 1978

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated George Steele

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 28, 1978

Ivan Koloff defeated WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund via referee's decision at 30:11 (ALBANO)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 25, 1978

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Ivan Koloff (ALBANO)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 23, 1978

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Ernie Ladd with the atomic drop at 17:24 after the challenger failed a splash; prior to the bout, the champion was escorted ringside by Arnold Skaaland while Ladd was escorted by the Grand Wizard (WIZARD)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 20, 1978

Peter Maivia defeated WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund via count-out at 9:18 after the champion received a headbutt on the floor (BLASSIE)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 18, 1978

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Peter Maivia via count-out (BLASSIE)

1979

 

Wizard manages heel in minimum of 6 of these matches.

Blassie maanges heel in two and misses a third.

Albano manages heel in minimum of 2 (one of which is as sub for absent Blassie).

I think Duncum had moved from Wizard to Albano by this point but am not sure.

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 22, 1979

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Peter Maivia in a steel cage match by escaping the cage at 20:46 (BLASSIE)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 19, 1979

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) fought Greg Valentine to a 60-minute time-limit draw (WIZARD)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 26, 1979

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Greg Valentine in a No Time Limit match at 30:56 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 30, 1979

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Bulldog Brower at 11:08 (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 4, 1979

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Hussein Arab at 30:40 with an atomic drop; prior to the bout, Arnold Skaaland & Capt. Lou Albano (sub. forFreddie Blassie) (ALBANO----subbing for BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 2, 1979

WWF North American Champion Pat Patterson defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 30, 1979

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) fought WWF North American Champion Pat Patterson to a double standing count-out at 28:22 when, after Patterson hit Backlund with brass knuckles, Skaaland climbed on the ring apron and hit Patterson with the title belt (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 27, 1979

WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via count-out at 14:29 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 24, 1979

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) defeated WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson in a steel cage match at 16:43 by kicking Patterson off him and escaping through the door (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 22, 1979

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Swede Hansen at 16:28 with the atomic drop after Hansen missed a move off the top; prior to the bout, Freddie Blassie escorted Hansen and Arnold Skaaland escorted Backlund ringside (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 19, 1979

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Bobby Duncum to a draw at 18:32 when both men were deemed too bloody to continue

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 17, 1979

Bob Backlund defeated Bobby Duncum in a Texas Death Match to win the vacant WWF World Title at 17:18

1980

 

Wizard manages heel in 4 matches

Albano manages heel in 2

Blassie in 1

 

Backlund also faces Race and Zbysco

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 21, 1980 (20,000+)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Ken Patera to a draw at 25:52 when, after Patera threw Backlund into referee Jack Lotz, referee Terry Terranova called for the bell; after the bout, Lotz was taken backstage on a stretcher (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 18, 1980

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Ken Patera via count-out at 15:37; Pat Patterson was the special referee for the bout (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 24, 1980 (26,102 which included 4,000 in Felt Forum)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Sika at 18:32 after throwing the challenger off the top as Sika attempted a diving headbutt (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 21, 1980 (20,000+)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Afa at 16:34 (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 19, 1980 (near capacity crowd)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned WWF IC Champion Ken Patera in a Texas Death Match at 22:56 with a crossbody off the top; prior to the bout, the Grand Wizard escorted Patera to the ring and Arnold Skaaland escorted Backlund; named Wrestling Observer's Match of the Year (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 16, 1980 (20,000+)

Larry Zbyszko defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund when the bout was stopped due to blood at 27:39

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 22, 1980 (20,000+)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated NWA World Champion Harley Race via disqualification at 35:14 when Race pulled the referee into Backlund as the NWA title holder was caught in a sleeper; this bout was not televised with the rest of the show, rather four matches from the Aug. 9 Shea Stadium show aired in its place

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 20, 1980

Sgt. Slaughter defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via disqualification at 16:33 when Arnold Skaaland hit Slaughter in the head, following a confrontation on the floor, as Backlund was trapped in the Cobra Clutch (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 8, 1980 (20,011)

This card was not televised; John Lennon was shot and killed in NYC this same night

NO WWF World Champ on show

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 29, 1980 (19,000)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Killer Khan at 12:23 with a back suplex into a bridge (BLASSIE)

1981

Wizard manages heel in minimum of 4 matches.

Blassie in minimum of 3.

Don't know about Albano?

Who is managing Steele at this point?

Who is managing Mosca?

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 16, 1981 (20,808)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Stan Hansen to a draw when the referee deemed both men too bloody to continue; after the bout, the two continued to brawl back to the dressing room where they were eventually seperated by security guards (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 16, 1981 (21,000+)

Stan Hansen defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) via count-out at 12:02 after the champion suffered the loaded lariat on the ring apron, knocking him to the floor; prior to Hansen's entrance, Pat Patterson entered the ring, issued a public challenge to Sgt. Slaughter over the house microphone, and shook the hands of Howard Finkel, Arnold Skaaland, and the champion; prior to the match, Freddie Blassie escorted Hansen to the ring; after the bout, Backlund cleared the ring of his opponent (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 6, 1981 (25,302 including 3,334 in Felt Forum)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Stan Hansen in a steel cage match by escaping through the door at 8:59 (Bloodbath: Wrestling's Most Incredible Steel Cage Matches) (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 4, 1981 (near capacity)

Angelo Mosca defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via disqualification at 13:51 when Backlund accidentally punched the referee when Mosca ducked the blow; after the bout, Mosca ran backstage with the title belt (Mosca's MSG debut)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 8, 1981 (near capacity)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Angelo Mosca when special referee Pat Patterson made a fast count at 10:31; after the bout, Mosca attacked Patterson

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 20, 1981 (22,091)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated George Steele at 7:11

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 24, 1981 (22,000)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought WWF IC Champion Don Muraco to a 60-minute time-limit draw (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 21, 1981 (20,920)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned WWF IC Champion Don Muraco in a Texas Death Match at 31:35 after reversing a suplex attempt into a backdrop; Muraco's foot was on the bottom rope during the cover but the referee failed to notice; prior to the bout, the Grand Wizard escorted Muraco to the ring (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 19, 1981 (18,120)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Greg Valentine to a no contest at 19:32; Backlund scored the pin when Valentine fell over after putting Backlund in an airplane spin but dazed referee John Stanley gave the title to Valentine and raised his hand as the winner after Backlund's leg knocked Stanley out during the airplane spin and Stanley thought Valentine had scored the pin, since both wore black tights; after the bout, several officials and NY State Athletic commissioners came to the ring and it was announced no decision would be rendered and the title would be held up pending further investigation; the title controversy was only a factor in NYC as Backlund continued to defend the title until the following month's Texas Death Match rematch (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 23, 1981 (21,104)

Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) pinned Greg Valentine to win the vacant WWF World Heavyweight title at 15:36 with a German suplex into a bridge after avoiding a punch; in a move that was only recognized in the NYC area, the championship was vacated the previous month when the referee accidentally handed Valentine the title following his loss to Backlund; prior to the bout, the Grand Wizard escorted Valentine to the ring (WIZARD)

1982

Albano manages heel in minimum of 3 matches

Wizard manages heel in minimum of 5

Blassie in minimum of 1

Is Blassie managing both halves of East West Connection? Who manages Adonis?

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 18, 1982 (18,301)

Adrian Adonis defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund when the referee stopped the match at 30:54 due to excessive blood loss

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 15, 1982 (22,034)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Adrian Adonis in a Texas Death Match via a backflip pin at 16:33; Ivan Putski was the special referee for the bout

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 14, 1982 (matinee)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) pinned Jesse Ventura (w/ Freddie Blassie) at 9:21 with a roll up into a bridge and a fast count from guest referee Ivan Putski; after the bout, an enraged Ventura attacked Putski until Backlund and Putski together sent him out of the ring (History of the WWF Heavyweight Championship, WWE Hall of Fame 2004) (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 26, 1982

Jimmy Snuka defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via disqualification at 10:42 when Backlund refused to break a choke; after the match, Snuka hit the splash off the top and the champion had to be taken from the ring on a stretcher (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 5, 1982

Jimmy Snuka defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via count-out at 20:53 (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 28, 1982

All American Wrestling - 9/4/83: WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Jimmy Snuka in a steel cage match at 15:10 by avoiding a lunge from the challenger and escaping through the door after Snuka missed a splash off the top of the cage;; before the bout, Capt. Lou Albano escorted Snuka and Arnold Skaaland escorted Backlund to the ring; (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 2, 1982

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Bob Orton Jr. at 23:38 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 30, 1982

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Buddy Rose via submission with the Crossface Chicken Wing at 20:24 after reversing an attempt at a back suplex; prior to the bout, Backlund was escorted to the ring by Arnold Skaaland while Rose was escorted to the ring by the Grand Wizard, Sherri Martel, & ? (Legends of Wrestling: Hulk Hogan and Bob Backlund) (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 4, 1982 (22,101)

Superstar Billy Graham defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via disqualification at 15:10 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 22, 1982

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Superstar Billy Graham to a double disqualification at 10:14 when referee Danny Davis threw the match out after being knocked down by the participants, with both men brawling their way backstage moments thereafter; prior to the bout, Graham was accompanied to the ring by the Grand Wizard and Backlund by Arnold Skaaland (20 Years Too Soon: The Superstar Billy Graham Story) (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 28, 1982

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Superstar Billy Graham via submission with the Crossface Chicken Wing in a lumberjack match at 12:33; Swede Hansen was the special referee for the match; prior to the match, Graham was escorted to the ring by the Grand Wizard; after the bout, Graham argued the decision with Hanson with the two men eventually coming to blows and Swede eventually clearing the ring of Graham; lumberjacks for the match included Mr. Fuji, Buddy Rose, Mr. Saito, Jules Strongbow, Salvatore Bellomo, the Black Demon, Johnny Rodz, Tony Garea, Chief Jay Strongbow, Eddie Gilbert, Rocky Johnson, and Jose Estrada (WIZARD)

1983

Albano manages heels in minimum of 2 matches

Blassie manages heel in minimum of 3 matches

Grand Wizard manages heel in minimum of 2.

I’m positive no one was managing masked Superstar in first match after Wizard’s passing. Not sure about second

Who managed Steele in 83?

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 22, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) pinned Big John Studd (w/ Freddie Blassie) at 7:17 by backdropping out of an overhead backbreaker after kicking off the top turnbuckle and landing on top for the win, despite the replay showing Studd may have lifted his shoulder before the 3-count; before the bell rang, Studd reapplied the hold, giving some the impression Backlund had submitted (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 18, 1983

WWF IC Champion Don Muraco (w/ Capt. Lou Albano) defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) via disqualification when Backlund shoved the referee down after Muraco reached the ropes as the champion had the Crossface Chicken Wing was applied; after the bout, Backlund attacked Muraco as the IC Champion was being interviewed backstage (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 20, 1983 (matinee) (26,109 including a sold out Felt Forum)

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) pinned WWF IC Champion Don Muraco in a Texas Death Match at 19:51 with a back suplex into a bridge (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 25, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Ivan Koloff at 28:36 (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 23, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) defeated Sgt. Slaughter (w/ the Grand Wizard) via disqualification at 16:53 when Slaughter hit the champion with his riding crop, handed to him by the Grand Wizard, as he was caught in the Crossface Chicken Wing; after the bout, Slaughter shoved referee Dick Kroll to the floor before Backlund sent Slaughter to the floor after a backdrop (The History of the WWE Heavyweight Championship) (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 17, 1983

Sgt. Slaughter defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via count-out at 19:46 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 30, 1983 (27,000 including a sold out Felt Forum)

George Steele defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) via disqualification at 10:52 after referee Dick Kroll came to and saw Backlund assault the challenger with Steele's own foreign object

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 27, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated George Steele at the 39-second mark

 

October 12. 1983-Grand Wizard dies

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 17, 1983

The Masked Superstar defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via count-out at 15:13 following a corkscrew neckbreaker on the floor (no manager due to Wizard’s passing)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 21, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned the Masked Superstar at 17:21 with an inside cradle after avoiding the neckbreaker (no manager due to Wizard’s passing)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 26, 1983 (24,592 which included several thousand in Felt Forum)

The Iron Sheik (w/ Freddie Blassie) defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) at 11:50 to win the title when Skaaland threw in the towel as Backlund was trapped in the Camel Clutch; moments prior to the finish, Backlund attempted his roll up into a bridge but was unable to keep it applied due to his injured neck (The WWF's Greatest Matches, History of the WWF Heavyweight Championship, The Greatest Wrestling Stars of the 80s) (BLASSIE)

[Ricky Jackson]

Patera=Albano

Arion=Blassie

Duncum=Albano

Mosca=Albano

Adonis=Blassie

Steele 83=Blassie

 

Not 100% sure on Patera and Arion, but those guys managed them in their previous runs. Also not sure on 78 and 81 Steele, but I think it was either Albano or Blassie.

[tomk]

More pin the wisemen on their charges for the Backlund era. I'm making lots of guesses so if I've fucked up, tell me.

 

I don't think Meltzer believes that Backlund is the draw during this period.

 

Wizard still manages Graham.

 

Maybe I should also look at the Bruno opponents. Zbysco didn't have manager.

Bruno opponents in MSG post loosing the title to Graham is alot easier than I thought it would be.

Bruno really works MSG a lot less than I had thought during this period.

 

1977

Bruno has two rematches with Graham who is managed by Grand Wizard.

One match with Patera when he was managed by Albano.

One match with George Steele, and I don't know who was managing Steele in 77. Steele is a huge frustration as he is a guy who was managed by all three wisemen and I don't know which guy was doing it when.

 

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 16, 1977

Bruno Sammartino defeated George Steele when the match was stopped due to blood

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 27, 1977 (22,090; 4,000 in Felt Forum)

WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham fought Bruno Sammartino to a double disqualification at 18:39 (WIZARD)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 1, 1977

Bruno Sammartino (w/ Arnold Skaaland) fought WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham (w/ the Grand Wizard) to a draw at 13:05 when both men were too bloody to continue; Gorilla Monsoon was the special referee for the bout; after the match, Bruno continued to attack the champion, despite Monsoon trying to hold him back (Grudge Matches) (WIZARD)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 29, 1977

Bruno Sammartino (w/ Arnold Skaaland) pinned Ken Patera in a Texas Death Match at 12:13 by kicking off the corner, as Patera had a full nelson applied, and falling backwards onto his opponent; prior to the bout, Capt. Lou Albano escorted Patera to the ring (Bruno Sammartino: Wrestling's Living Legend) (ALBANO)

1978

Another Graham match managed by Wizard.

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 23, 1978

 

Bruno Sammartino defeated Superstar Billy Graham when the referee stopped the match due to Graham bleeding from the face at 12:19 (WIZARD)

1979

Two matches v. old rival Koloff managed by Albano.

One match opposite Volkoff managed by Blassie

One match opposite Valentine managed by Grand Wizard

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 19, 1979

Bruno Sammartino fought Ivan Koloff to a draw (ALBANO)

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 26, 1979

Bruno Sammartino defeated Ivan Koloff via count-out (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 2, 1979

Bruno Sammartino pinned Nikolai Volkoff at 6:21 after hitting him with a chair Volkoff had brought into the ring; prior to the bout, Freddie Blassie escorted Volkoff to the ring (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 22, 1979

Bruno Sammartino defeated Greg Valentine when the referee stopped the match due to excessive bleeding at 15:10 after Sammartino slammed Valentine's head into the metal part of the turnbuckle; prior to the bout, the Grand Wizard escorted Valentine ringside

(WIZARD)

1980

Two matches opposite Zbysco ( no manager).

One match opposite Slaughter (managed by Grand Wizard).

Bruno won't appear at MSG again till 84 when he accompanies son.

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 24, 1980 (26,102 which included 4,000 in Felt Forum)

Larry Zbyszko defeated Bruno Sammartino (w/ Arnold Skaaland) via disqualification at 15:31 when Sammartino failed to release a choke; Sammartino was eventually pulled away by Skaaland and referee Dick Kroll while Zbyzsko escaped

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 21, 1980 (20,000+)

Bruno Sammartino defeated Larry Zbyszko via count-out

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 8, 1980 (20,011)

Bruno Sammartino defeated Sgt. Slaughter via count-out at 18:38 (WIZARD)

[tomk]

More pin the wisemen on their charges for the Backlund era. I'm making lots of guesses so if I've fucked up, tell me.

 

I don't think Meltzer believes that Backlund is the draw during this period.

Maybe should go through who managed heels in IC matches for this period too.

This is of course super easy to do since IC title is mostly a heel belt during this period.

 

1979-

 

August 1979- Patterson “wins” title in tourney in Rio

5 matches with Patterson as IC champ, he is managed by Grand Wizard during this period

First of which is

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 27, 1979

WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund via count-out at 14:29 after Patterson used brass knuckles while the referee was knocked out and then beat Backlund back inside the ring; prior to the bout, Patterson was escorted to the ring by the Grand Wizard while Arnold Skaaland escorted Backlund (WIZARD)

1980

Wizard turns Patterson’s contract over to Albano which pisses Patterson off and turns Patterson face.

Patterson has three matches with IC title as face in MSG.

One match opposite Albano.

A tag match opposite a team where one opponent managed by Albano and other managed by Wizard. The third match is a title loss opposite the Grand Wizard managed Patera.Wizard managed Patera has five matches with IC title before losing to Morales.

Face Pedro Morales has one IC title defense opposite the Blassie managed Hangman.

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 21, 1980 (20,000+)

WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson defeated Capt. Lou Albano via count-out at 6:11 after Patterson hit Albano with his own foreign object, causing Albano to bleed, with Albano then running backstage (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 24, 1980 (26,102 which included 4,000 in Felt Forum)

Andre the Giant & WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson defeated Bobby Duncum & Ken Patera at 11:04 when Andre pinned Duncum with a splash as Patterson had Duncum in the figure-4 (WIZARD +ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 21, 1980 (20,000+)

Ken Patera defeated WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson to win the title at 20:48 with a knee drop off the middle turnbuckle to the champion's back; the referee, still groggy from a collision with Patterson moments prior, did not notice that the champion's foot was on the bottom rope during the cover(WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 8, 1980 (20,011)

Pedro Morales defeated WWF IC Champion Ken Patera to win the title at 18:51; Pat Patterson was the guest referee for the bout (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 29, 1980 (19,000)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned the Hangman at 7:07 with a roll up after the Hangman hit the corner (BLASSIE)

1981

Face IC champ, Pedro Morales has two matches opposite Albano managed heels.

He has one match opposite a Blassie managed heel.

And 2 matches opposite a Grand Wizard managed heel.

 

Grand Wizard managed Don Muraco wins the title in Philly on June 20, and they have four MSG matches with belt with Morales winning belt back in November of 81 (last MSG of 81).

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 16, 1981 (20,808)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales defeated Sgt. Slaughter via disqualification at 22:40 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 16, 1981 (21,000+)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned Moondog King at 4:48 (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 6, 1981 (25,302 including 3,334 in Felt Forum)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned Moondog Rex (w/ Capt. Lou Albano) at 9:33 (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 4, 1981 (near capacity)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales defeated Killer Khan at 4:26 (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 8, 1981 (near capacity)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales defeated Sgt. Slaughter at 6:53 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - July 20, 1981 (22,091)

WWF IC Champion Don Muraco fought Pedro Morales to a 20-minute draw (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 23, 1981 (21,104)

Pedro Morales defeated WWF IC Champion Don Muraco in a Texas Death Match to win the title after hitting Muraco with his own foreign object at 13:36 (WIZARD)

1982

Face holds the title for entire year.

Morales has title for five singles matches against Albano managed heels (Albano is now managing Muraco), and is in one six man match where Albano manages two thirds of heel team.

Morales has title during one match against a Blassie managed heel.

Morales has title during five singles matches against a Wizard managed heel, and is in a six man where one third of the heel team is managed by the Grand Wizard.

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 18, 1982 (18,301)

Greg Valentine defeated WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales via disqualification at 14:43 after the champion hit Valentine with Valentine's own foreign object (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 15, 1982 (22,034)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales defeated Greg Valentine in a Brass Knuckles Alley Fight at 14:10; Ivan Putski was the guest referee for the bout (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 14, 1982 (matinee)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned Adrian Adonis at 10:47 (BLASSIE)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 26, 1982

Ivan Putski, Pedro Morales, & Andre the Giant defeated Mr. Fuji, Mr. Saito, & Greg Valentine in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match at 23:40, 2-0; the 1st fall was decided via disqualification (2/3 ALBANO,1/3 WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 5, 1982

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned Mr. Fuji at 5:39 (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 28, 1982

Bob Orton Jr. defeated WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales via disqualification at 14:38 (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 2, 1982

Jimmy Snuka defeated WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales via count-out at 9:18 (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 30, 1982

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales fought Jimmy Snuka to a double disqualification at 17:55 after both men refused to break choke holds, with Snuka also hitting a headbutt on guest referee Ivan Putski; prior to the bout, Capt. Lou Albano escorted Snuka to the ring (ALBANO)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 4, 1982 (22,101)

Buddy Rose fought WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales to a 20-minute draw (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 22, 1982

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned Buddy Rose at 11:29 with a sunset flip into the ring as Rose charged the champion (WIZARD)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 28, 1982

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales fought Don Muraco to a double disqualification at 14:25 after both men struck the referee; prior to the bout, Capt. Lou Albano escorted Muraco to the ring; after the contest, both men continued to brawl in and out of the ring until Muraco left ringside (History of the Intercontinental Championship) (ALBANO)

1983

Albano managed Don Muraco wins title holds till Feb,84.

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 22, 1983

 

Championship Wrestling - 1/29/83; All American Wrestling - 10/2/83: Don Muraco pinned WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales to win the title at 11:34 when the champion's injured knee gave out as he attempted a slam, with Morales falling on top for the pin (Morales' first pinfall loss at MSG in 18 years) (ALBANO)

[Ricky Jackson]

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 15, 1982 (22,034)

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales defeated Greg Valentine in a Brass Knuckles Alley Fight at 14:10; Ivan Putski was the guest referee for the bout (WIZARD)

I'm a big fan of Valentine from this period and have been intrigued about this match since I first noticed it in the results. Looking at Cawthon's site, I get the feeling this was one of the untelevised MSG cards as none of the matches listed have ever been included on any comp tapes or DVDs. Too bad, because there was also a Texas Death match between Backlund and Adonis on the show (my least favorite ref, Putski, officiated both matches).

[Ricky Jackson]

Who is the most likely to go into the Hall of Fame next year?

John Cena 28.8%

Lou Albano 16.5%

Brock Lesnar 14.9%

Rock & Roll Express 14.4%

Jesse Ventura 8.0%

Gene & Ole Anderson 6.1%

The Assassins 3.3%

Carlos Colon 3.3%

Hiroshi Tanahashi 2.3%

Mick McManus 1.2%

Hans Schmidt 0.9%

Enrique Torres 0.5%

I'm totally outraged. Schmidt should have been in years ago.

[tomk]

What Tanahashi has amongst current "stars" in Japan is that you (well, certainly I) could see him positioned in a same role in previous, more successful generations; it was clear from the start he'd end up there. Now, that doesn't make him a HOF candidate, but it at least doesn't make him the sorriest of names put forward either.

 

Positioned in same role in previous, more succesful generations?

Guys who held the IWGP Championship for over 300 days in more succesful generations:

Inoki, Vader, Fujinami, Hashimoto, Mutoh

 

Even if we ignore him being something like six inches shorter and weighing 30 lbs less than George Takano...people see Tanahashi as being a guy who would be in same role as those five?