2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[shoe]

Tommy Rich not being on the ballot is pretty ridiculous to me. I didn't think of him when we did Segunda Caida radio on Thursday but damn he was one of the biggest stars in the business for a good 5 year span.

 

When I was listening to the show I thought the same thing. I think you can make a better argument for him than Dundee based off his drawing in Georgia. Being one of the 1st national stars.

[puropotsy]

I agree on Rich, Dandy, Rose and Roberts. I do believe that Roberts may have been on the ballot at one point but didn't receive support but I could be completely wrong.

What do people of think of The Spoiler (Don Jardine) as a candidate?

[shoe]

I think people can make an easy argument for the Spoiler. I think this is a pretty deep ballot. Their are another 7 or 8 guys who can make a legit claim to the HOF.

[Dylan Waco]

Didn't Meltzer change the eligibility rules as far as new candidates go? Up the age to 40 or something? I'm just curious because otherwise Cena goes on the ballot next year

[Bix]

It went from age 35 or 15 years pro to 15 years pro or age 40 with 10 years pro immediately after Angle got in, which still looks fishy regardless of the intentions.

[Dylan Waco]

So no Cena next year, but possibly Jeff Hardy next year depending on what Dave considers "big time" wrestling debut. Can't think of any other obvious people who would go on the ballot next year.

 

Someone needs to push for the names we've talked about as omissions. I know some of them may have been on and fallen off but next year may be a good chance to get some of them back into the discussion.

[Tim Evans]

Does that mean Mistico goes on next year

[Bix]

Hardys would be 2013 based on signing with WWE in 1998.

[Dylan Waco]

They were SMW jobbers in 95. Dave has been inconsistent on this over the years

[khawk20]

I never liked the idea that current stars could go in....just seems like any HOF should have only retired stars eligible.

 

I do realize that is problematic in wrestling since so many guys never really "retire". Upping the eligiblity age is about the only thing that helps even that out.

[El-P]

The very idea that Batista or Jeff Hardy are eligible for the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame makes it a laughable affair. Well, it's been a laughable affair since years now anyway. I don't know why people care in any way shape or form at this point.

[Dylan Waco]

Khawk, what are your thoughts on Jerry Blackwell as a candidate? I don't know whether or not he was a draw though he seemed like he was treated as a major star for most of his AWA run. Were the Sheiks headlining shows that did good gates?

[shoe]

Also with Blackwell I thought he was a big deal in St. Louis. I also want to say Georgia, don't quote me on that one though.

[khawk20]

Khawk, what are your thoughts on Jerry Blackwell as a candidate? I don't know whether or not he was a draw though he seemed like he was treated as a major star for most of his AWA run. Were the Sheiks headlining shows that did good gates?

Blackwell was the AWA's MVP from 1980 through 1984 (Bobby Heenan notwithstanding). Monster heel when he came in as a single, and the fans HATED him. People were ready to lynch him for the beatings he used to give to young up-and-comers like Ron Ritchie and Steve O. His challenge to the AWA singles title was limited to a match or two against Verne in that time frame, but he was such a monster that he could be programmed with any face on the roster and it was compelling.

 

His team with Kaissie was even more hated than Blackwell as a single. Their feud with Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell was extremely hot, and begun very cleverly when the Flyers agreed to take a non-title match against the Sheiks as a favour to promoter Wally Karbo as the top chellengers could not be on the upcoming card. one non-title win later, their feud was born, and it carried on throughout 1982 and into the early part of 1983.

 

Blackwell was the driving force in that feud, and they also managed to bring Mad Dog Vachon back for revenge against Blackwell for injuring him the year previous. Blackwell was able to hold up his end of it in two major programs almost at the same time, and was able to generate enough heat to bring the fans in for both. Keep in mind that Blackwell had been in the AWA for 3 years+ straight at this point, and was still able to maintain his aura of invincibility to a degree...no small feat.

 

Out of the Vachon feud Blackwell moved right into his team with Ken Patera and a reign as the World Tag team Champions, a title that they held for a full year.

 

From there, Blackwell was turned face in the infamous June 1984 battleroyal in St. Paul where Kaissie, Abdullah and Brody attacked im after he won it. Blackwell became the most popular wrestler in the AWA almost overnight, and had a lengthy albeit strangely booked feud with Brody running through the middle of 1985.

 

Blackwell had health problems which affected his ability to wrestle regularly after the middle of 1985, but whenever he came back he was always greeted with a huge reaction. Even as late as 1989/90, Blackwell was brought into the Rochester TV tapings to team with the New Fantastics against the Destruction Crew and Johnny V, and he was still extremely over.

 

As a heel, he had major feuds and programs with Mad Dog Vachon, Baron Von Raschke, Dino Bravo, The High Flyers, Hulk Hogan, Brad Rheingans and the Crusher. Hell, Verne got Andre to take a DQ loss to Blackwell in 1980, which I imagine wasn't a common (or inexpensive) thing back then. As a face, he had feuds with Kaissie and various forms of his army, Brody, The Freebirds, Boris Zurkov, Kamala, The Road Warriors, and I'm sure a few more I am forgetting.

 

Blackwell drew, and was able to do so in a singular territory for the better part of ten years. that is no small feat.His transition to a face IMO extended his time as a top draw, simply because he had exhausted almost every avenue possible as a heel that could draw, with the possible exception of never doing a program with Rick Martel.

He really found his niche in the AWA, and you have to give Verne Gagne a lot of credit for giving Jerry a chance to carry the ball as a monster heel, considering he was a mid-range heel at best in the WWWF previously and even less of a player in any other areas he may have been in previous to that (MACW is one he had a match or two in but no push from what I have seen. Mulligan squashed him in one match IIRC).

 

I consider him a worthy candidate for the HOF and those that were also witness to his AWA run, especially 80 - 84 as a heel, would likely agree. Dave from the get-go has always been sour on the AWA and I suspect he has not seen much if any of Blackwell's 80 - 84 work as a heel. This hurts the idea that Dave would give him a push of any sort to improve his candidacy. But it's hard to argue the idea that he deserve serious consideration when you look at his body of work and sustained drawing/star power in what was one of the "Big Three" at the time of his ascent to key player.

[khawk20]

..on Blackwell in St. Louis, he was pushed decently there but St. Louis was such an odd duck of a territory with the number of guys in and out that Blackwell's star there sort of blends in, as opposed to how it stands out in the AWA. I'm not a St. Louis expert of any sort but that's how I've seen his time there.

[Dylan Waco]

Excellent, excellent write-up. I have Schire's AWA record book around the house somewhere but I'm not sure where it is. Would be interesting to look up and see what Blackwell's biggest gates were. Raw numbers are always helpful, but I think you make a strong case for him to at least be on the dock for consideration.

 

I don't think I'd vote for him, but I think Martel is another guy that probably deserves to be explored more. Better drawing champion than you would think IIRC, and I'm interested to see if he was a draw in Lutte also

[jdw]

Good stuff. Probably should open a thread on Classic on him with that.

 

John

[khawk20]

Good stuff. Probably should open a thread on Classic on him with that.

 

John

Feel free to C and P it wherever you think it might be relevant, John. No issues here.

[Dylan Waco]

Just scratching the surface looking at Clawmaster's results for 84, but man Blackwell has a good case as a draw at least as part of the Sheiks act:

 

http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/10387-4.html

 

San Fran was a brutally dead town at that point, but aside from that 84 gives us some impressive figures. Some sellouts in Green Bay that look like notches for Blackwell, the biggest paid attendance of the year for the AWA in the blowoff Cage Match v. the High Flyers, some very impressive showings in Salt Lake City, a couple of strong drawing shows where he worked second from the top v. Crusher and it's pretty clear based on what else was the show that that was the key draw, part of a really big run in Chicago. Also notable that on cursory view attendance seemed to dip when he was absent in the middle of the year and go back up a bit when he came back. That's probably coincidental but who the hell knows. Roadies v. Blackwell/Bundy was also the best Roadies headlined show of the year by a safe margin IIRC (16,000 at St. Paul. Probably one of the top three or four paid attendance of the year for the AWA, with the aforementioned Cage Match being number one).

 

Khawk, what was capacity in Winnipeg?

[khawk20]

Excellent, excellent write-up. I have Schire's AWA record book around the house somewhere but I'm not sure where it is. Would be interesting to look up and see what Blackwell's biggest gates were. Raw numbers are always helpful, but I think you make a strong case for him to at least be on the dock for consideration.

 

I don't think I'd vote for him, but I think Martel is another guy that probably deserves to be explored more. Better drawing champion than you would think IIRC, and I'm interested to see if he was a draw in Lutte also

Martel is a personal favourite and aside from his AWA work, he has a significant body of work in the WWF and Montreal, among other places. As the AWA Champion, he was unique in that he was the first face champion that held the title for any length of time aside from Verne...heck, probably ever.

 

There's an old article on Kayfabe Memories that talks about how huge his feud with Dino Bravo in 1982/83 was in Quebec, considering they were both faces when it happened. IMO, that feud was partially responsible for Verne deciding to give Martel a crack as AWA Champion (along with heavy lobbying from Nick Bockwinkel and the thought of losing his services to McMahon in the wake of the Hogan defection). How he was programmed was sometimes a burden to how he was looked at as Champion, but could also be considered a testament to how good a worker he was in the sense that he was given a widely divergent list of programs and high-profile one-offs in St. Paul.

 

Being constantly thought of and talked about as the third wheel in the Champions gallery that was Hogan, Flair, and Martel I think hurt how people saw his title reign at the time. In hindsight, he was a good choice as champion and Verne used his verstility to make unlikely challengers seem like credible threats to the belt. A partial list of his challengers would include Robinson, Rheingans, Backlund, Tsuruta (all on centerpiece St. Paul cards), Bockwinkel, King Tonga, Jim Garvin (Garvin and Bock all over, Tonga in Montreal and New Jersey...Bock and Garvin also got Jersey challenges for PWUSA), Kamala, Zbyszko, Gordy, Hayes (long program), ZUrkov (long Winnipeg program), Buddy Roberts, Kendo Nagasaki, Mr. Saito, and Stan Hansen. I'm sure there were more.

 

That's a helluva list of different wrestlers and styles that Martel had. His pre-championship AWA work was relatively typical of face AWA guys, but it sort of served as a proving ground that Martel could have entertaining matches against a wide variety of wrestlers, in both singles and tag action.

 

For those that ended up getting Hansen's book, I believe there is a chapter in it about his AWA time and I'd be curious to see what he thought of Martel as a wrestler. I know what the guy he inherited the title from (Bock, through Jumbo, of course) thinks of his work, I'd love to know what the guy that took the title from him thinks of his work too.

[khawk20]

Khawk, what was capacity in Winnipeg?

THe WInnipeg arena could hold probably 13-15,000 for wrestling. they never approached selling it out on any attendance figures I have ever seen. They drew 8,920 fo the October 84 show and I think drew over 10,000 once or twice in 81-82, but I don't have those numbers handy.

 

From my own calculations for 84-86 based on results compiled by Clawmaster and Vance Nevade primarily, They drew between 3400 and 7500 from January through April (both 84 and 85), between 1800 and 3500 from May through July (both 84 and 85), and they drew 3500 and 8900 between August and December (both 84 and 85). I have a proper breakdown somewhere but I can't find it at the moment.

 

So while they never drew to capacity, the town was averaging probably around 4,000 - 4500 in a given year, for 84 and 85, and Jaunary of 86, when the AWA stopped running there (and not because they weren't drawing, unfortunately...the last AWA show in Winnipeg drew almost 7,000 fans). From other numbers I have seeen, I think that was comparable if not slightly higher than what they drew in previous years in the 80's and quite likely the 70's as well. They had a very steady, loyal fan base in Winnipeg.

 

It makes it easier to track the attendance spikes if nothing else, and to trace what the likely cause for said spikes were.

[Dylan Waco]

Yep those are consistent numbers I'm seeing too.

 

Kind of shocked to see the AWA was doing very consistent business well into 85, though a lot of that looks to be attributable to Sarge and Blackwell as much as Martel. Martel clearly drew well in Canada.

 

Really impressed by this:

 

4/24/85 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada @ Arena

Cage match

Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell & Jerry Blackwell beat Road Warriors & Paul Ellering

AWA Champion Rick Martel beat Mr. Saito

Jimmy Garvin beat Baron Von Raschke

Sgt. Slaughter beat Sheik Adnan dq

Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat Larry Hennig & Curt Hennig

Butch Reed beat Brian Jewel

Fabulous Freebirds Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts beat Tom Zenk & Rick Stonsky

att: 6,636

 

That's about 2-2500 over the Winnipeg average.

 

85 was also a much better year in the Bay Area, with Blackwell v. Bundy doing a comparatively massive number to everything from the previous year. Also was surprised StarrCage drew as well as it did. 12,000 in St. Paul at that point was a good number. Sarge and Hennigs v. Roadies/Ellering with Blackwell/Adnan in a Cage in the semi-main slot had some almost shockingly good numbers compared to what I was expecting to see.

 

Almost immediately after they finish up with that series things collapse with Martel working against increasingly "unlikely to win the belt" opponents and curiously enough the disappearance of Blackwell. The Roadies are on a hiatus too and you know damn well that has something to do with it, but hey are still popping up here and here. Blackwell is virtually gone.

 

The last impressive show for the AWA in 85 was:

 

5/10/85 Salt Lake City, UT @ Salt Palace

Sgt. Slaughter & Larry Hennig & Curt Hennig beat Road Warriors & Paul Ellering

Cage match

Jerry Blackwell beat Sheik Adnan

Baron Von Raschke beat Jim Garvin

Butch Reed beat Buck Zumhofe

Brad Rheingans beat Steve Regal

att: 10,455

 

Blackwell headlines this admittedly poorly attended Chicago show:

 

5/25/85 Chicago

Jerry Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter beat Road Warrior Animal & Paul Ellering (sub RW Hawk)

AWA Champion Rick Martel beat Buddy Roberts (sub King Tonga)

Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Fabulous Freebirds Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts dq

Butch Reed no contest The Crusher

Nick Bockwinkel beat Brad Rheingans

Larry Zbyszko (sub Jim Garvin) beat Baron Von Raschke

Ray Stevens beat Buck Zumhofe

Steve Regal drew Steve O

att: 5,000

Note: Terry Gordy also no showed.

 

Then he becomes a ghost and gates plummet. The return show in SLC for example:

 

6/7/85 Salt Lake City, UT @ Salt Palace

AWA Champion Rick Martel beat Billy Robinson

Sgt. Slaughter beat Larry Zbyszko dq

Greg Gagne beat Nick Bockwinkel

No dq match

Butch Reed beat Baron Von Raschke

Fabulous Freebirds Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts beat Brad Rheingans & Steve O

Ray Stevens beat Buck Zumhofe

Att: 4043

 

That's actually not a horrid figure for SLC, but it's 6000 thousand down from the previous show.

 

In June they do under 2,000 for Roadies/Blackwelless shows in Winnipeg and St. Paul which is awful.

 

SLC is down to less than 1500 by July under the same conditions. St. Paul is effectively dead. They rebound some in August and Blackwell re-emerges briefly for an Alaska tour of all things.

 

Unfortunately we have lots of missing attendance figures once Blackwell is really back in the mix but what we do have is middling, though not as awful as before he left and the territory clearly to a huge drop off when Blackwell and The Roadies vanished virtually at the same time. SuperClash did a good number on paper, but I imagine was a disappointment at the time and Blackwell was a bit player on the show. What figures we have from the last few months of the year show some solid shows, with a variety of headliners and Blackwell slipping down the card for the most part.

 

I'm sure most would chalk up the loss of The Roadies for a few months as a bigger reason for the drop in business than the loss of Blackwell, but if you look at the business Blackwell was doing in dead towns and even when the Roadies weren't on the cards before hand I think it was really a double whammy.

 

As a babyface, for the first half of 85, Blackwell appears to have been a draw

[khawk20]

The only caution I would throw into those numbers are the following:

 

a) Every once in a while, an AWA town would spike for no real reason, such as Salt Lake seemed to there. The same thing happened in 1987 in San Frana, just before Super Clash II was booked. It never made sense to me why Verne booked that show in San Fran, but they did IIRC ten thousand in attendance on the show previous to that a few months before (SC II drew 2800). That number was really out of the blue, much like that Salt Lake number appears to have been. It happens sometimes.

 

B ) The AWA never seemed to do decent business in the summer. Winnipeg suffered both in 84 and 85 in the summer months. St. Paul was often not much better in July and August, and sometimes even September (Heenan's Weasel suit match finale before he left for the WWF was promoted to death and only drew 3,000...that was either August or early September 1984). It's been said that Verne often let things ride through the summer, building angles for the fall and generally keeping things "unspectacular".

 

I'm pretty sure around the time Jerry disappeared is about the same time he started having real health issues. It would also not surprise me if the Roadies were beginning to take JCP dates again at that time.

[Dylan Waco]

By the middle of 86 AWA was dead as a territory with any kind of drawing power. Perhaps worth noting that the last non-supershows that did relatively strong attendances were:

 

1/10/86 Rosemont, IL @ Rosemont Horizon

Cage match

Road Warriors & Jerry Blackwell beat Fabulous Freebirds Terry Gordy & Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts

Sgt. Slaughter beat AWA Champion Stan Hansen dq

AWA Tag Team Champions Jim Garvin & Steve Regal beat Curt Hennig & Scott Hall

Nick Bockwinkel beat Larry Zbyszko dq

Boris Zhukov & Barbarian beat Marty Jannetty & Earthquake Ferris

Scott Irwin beat Baron Von Raschke

Bill Irwin beat Kelly Kiniski

Att: 13,000

 

 

3/15/86 Salt Lake City, UT

Jerry Blackwell no contest AWA Champion Stan Hansen

Larry Zbyszko beat Nick Bockwinkel dq

Non Title

Boris Zhukov & Nord the Barbarian beat AWA Tag Team Champions Curt Hennig & Scott Hall

Sgt. Slaughter beat Sheik Adnan COR

Brad Rheingans beat Doug Somers

Marty Jannetty beat Colonel DeBeers dq

Shawn Michaels drew Buddy Rose

att: 8,600

 

After Wrestlrock and the SLC supershow it was all over. The brand was effectively dead

[Dylan Waco]

Not sure that SLC show was a freak thing. That double main event seemed to draw well elsewhere.