El-P Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 That was one of the things that was great about Corny: he could go over there during an elongated squash match in the studio, talk shit with Tony & David, sound for a bit like he might just be bouncing off walls, but find ways to tie the thread back together to the storylines they were working, and then when the MX were done and it was time for the promo at the desk, he'd just fucking nail the hell out of it. Can't agree more. I'm watching WCW TV from early 90 right now, and listening to Cornette cut promos during squashes on a week-to-week basis is just super impressive. I can't honestly think of anyone better on the mic at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Can someone explain to me what "bitching and stooging" is please? I thought the classic thing was for the heel to control the match, i.e. heel is on top for 80% of it aside from the shine, hope spots and comeback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Great post jdw. I feel you with the MX love. Amazing act. I've always thought of Cornette as the best heel promo in wrestling history. He was just a machine on the stick. I love the stories about him in World Class where the boys would place bets that Jimmy couldn't keep it under 5 minutes, and he rarely did, with Fritz being shocked how he could remember all of that. A great modern day heel was CM Punk... Moreso on house shows. Drew McIntyre too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Can someone explain to me what "bitching and stooging" is please? I thought the classic thing was for the heel to control the match, i.e. heel is on top for 80% of it aside from the shine, hope spots and comeback. Did Flair control 80% of the match? Classic "bitching": Ric Flair begging off in the corner. Savage hiding behind Liz. Classic stooging: Ric pushes Ref. Ref shoves Ric back. Ric bumps on his ass. Arn Anderson going for the Press when someone won't stay down for a pin. Arn taking it in the nuts. Arn making funny face. Heels bitch and stooge... a lot. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 If the business today isn't going to utilize the male manager, at least bring back the classic "heel hides behind his valet" spot. Dolph should do that with Vickie, or does he already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Ok, thanks jdw, I understand exactly what you mean now, cleared it right up. That is more about particular spots rather than being on the backfoot in matches though, right? I think Flair was on top in a lot of his matches though. It's just that he bitched and stooged when the face was on top or coming back. I think for pure bitching and stooging, Honky Tonk Man is hard to beat. I mean it was his only actual skill but he did it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Flair was on defense for larger portions of his match. Lots of face shining where he'd selflessly fly around the ring and stooge like crazy for the face. His control segment stuff usually wasn't fleshed out before he was back to bumping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Ok, thanks jdw, I understand exactly what you mean now, cleared it right up. That is more about particular spots rather than being on the backfoot in matches though, right? Ric was a Bitch Champion. He came out of every match not only looking like the face could beat him, but should beat him, would have beat him if not totally fucked over... hell, would have beat the living shit out of Ric if not for some such bullshit. That was Ric's role: to bitch out to the local star. It had zero to do with making the title look good, himself look good, the NWA look good (in fact, in the key angle in Dallas they intentionally made the NWA look horrible and part of the problem screwing over the Von Erichs). It's not just "particular spots": it's the whole way he wrestled. Ric's key move? The Figure Four. Dirty secret about the Figure Four? Nearly *every* babyface could apply the Figure Four better than the Master Of The Figure Four. Ric would slap it on, and it would get reversed, doing more damage to Ric than the face (as shown by Ric's selling compared to their's). Lots of them would even slap Ric's own figure four on Ric, and Ric would sell the shit out of it even more than the faces would when it was on them. In modern usage of the word (i.e. street guy to guy), Ric Flair was nothing but a bitch in the ring. I'll grant that he was an extremely effective bitch and stooge in the ring: it popped the fans, and made the face look like a king. But it's really the role he played: he bitched out to the faces. I think Flair was on top in a lot of his matches though. It's just that he bitched and stooged when the face was on top or coming back. 80% would be a wrong number for how much Ric was on top. Put a stop watch on the Dusty vs Flair at Starcade 1985, and break down the segments. That match was hardly unique in how Ric worked, and not just with Dusty. I think for pure bitching and stooging, Honky Tonk Man is hard to beat. I mean it was his only actual skill but he did it well. I found him uninteresting in that way. I prefer a heel to have some teeth behind his bitching and stooging. Savage could bitch and stooge great, but this was that dangerous kick ass nut case lurking behind it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think the key to really being a good heel is one who will do a lot to put the face over as a threat, yet once he's in control, the fans can tell he can back up some of what he says. In other words, the fan can buy the heel as a threat, but somebody who is still beatable. With Honky, the issue was that he was the guy who few ever bought as a threat. That's why the gimmick of him getting DQ'ed or counted out to save the title wore out over time and that the only possible way to end his reign was for Warrior to squash him in 30 seconds, then for Honky to bump around like a pinball for Warrior in rematches. You didn't have to do that with Flair or Arn... sure, there would be times in which they would get frustrated and act like they were going to walk back to the dressing room. But they'd eventually return because they really didn't want to lose, even if it meant they would keep the title (compared to Honky, who was all about "save my title"). They would bitch and stooge for opponents quite a bit, but there was enough done in their matches that fans could buy them as a threat to win. At the same time, they did enough for the opponent to make it clear they were beatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Personally, I like the consummate showman heels like Satanico and Mick McManus. Any heel that does the same thing each match but is brilliant each and every time is a master performer in my books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I think a cut above them would be Savage. A month after Macho Man passed away, I was watching the post WM 5 Prime Time. Savage starts berating Elisabeth and I wanted somebody to punch the son of a bitch. Now that is a great heel. Flair in the 80s is a guy I could be watching on TV and my mother or sisters just hearing it in the background would openly wish someone would kill him. To me those are the great heels. Guys who even if you know its not real, they make you want to shut them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.