jdw Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Graham on the other hand. I liked the Dusty Rhodes matches a lot and there was a really good Mil Mascaras match for the WWWF Title. Oddly, that was the best Mascaras match I've seen too. Yikes. Mil had really good matches with Jumbo and The Destroyer. There also was praise for all four of his matches that made the DVDVR 80s AJPW set from a pretty wide variety of the people who dropped comments in the threads. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jacobi Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 I agree with Paul that the Ladder Matches hold up and I have no problem with someone rating Shawn on top for the decade but I think it is curious that if you look at Shawn's absolute best matches they are all heavily gimmicked to the gills, with one notable exception that comes to mind: Ladder matches v. Razor Good Friends Better Enemies HITC MindGames MindGames technically didn't have a "gimmick" but there is no disputing it was a "gimmick match" in the sense most would identify the term. The one "exception" to this rule would be Jarrett v. Michaels. I have no problem calling that a great match, but I think it is CLEAR the match was worked TN style, in front of a Nashville crowd, with a Jarrett. No way in hell I'm saying Shawn doesn't deserve any of the credit, or even a lot of the credit, but it's the one time I can really remember Shawn working a match like that, so I think Jarrett deserves a lot more credit for it than he has often been given. I don't think it is unfair to say those are the "consensus" best Shawn matches of the 90's. I'm not a huge fan of HITC, but I am a really big fan of all of the other matches myself. Still it is glaring to me that Shawn has exactly ONE great match from his peak decade that I would call gimmick free. Perhaps he deserves credit for being master of the gimmick match. Hell I've made that point in the past myself. But it would be nice if there were more Shawn matches that were great that were absent a gimmick. Are we just talking 90's singles? I think Rockers/Orient Express, Shawn & Diesel vs. Kid/Razor, and Shawn/Austinvs Owen/Bulldog are all pretty great tag matches. I think the Davey Boy match from One Night Only is pretty close and the Owen match from December '97 on Raw is about as good of a 10 minute match that you could have. Michaels/Jannetty from RAW in July '93 also knocks on the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Graham on the other hand. I liked the Dusty Rhodes matches a lot and there was a really good Mil Mascaras match for the WWWF Title. Oddly, that was the best Mascaras match I've seen too. Yikes. Mil had really good matches with Jumbo and The Destroyer. There also was praise for all four of his matches that made the DVDVR 80s AJPW set from a pretty wide variety of the people who dropped comments in the threads. John I wasn't one of them, I pretty much despise Mil's matches on the set and hate Mil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 With regard to Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart, year-by-year: 1993: Bret's way ahead. Michaels still looks a little uncomfortable to me and has a massive flop at SummerSlam (they also have two house show matches, one of which isn't much and the other of which is okay). 1994: The ladder match holds up fine for me, not in the sense that I'd call it a perfect match, but calling it great is fine. Hart's match with Bob Backlund on Superstars(?) strikes me as something that Michaels could never have done in 1994 and probably not in 1995-97, either. 1995: Like the other one, the ladder match holds up fine for me. I'd like it more than the first if not for the ending, which is 100% on Michaels. Razor Ramon might be the better worker in the match. Both Hart and Michaels made Diesel look bad; their performances against him at the Rumble and WrestleMania are disappointing. Michaels has maybe one strong TV performance, normally one of his strong suits. 1996: Michaels' matches against Diesel and Mankind are great. He's usually good in his TV matches. I like the match with Sid A LOT, as Sid looks unbeatable for parts of it (knocking him out with the superkick, on the other hand...). He also has some disappointments; he loses his composure, noticeably, against the Bulldog and against Vader. The King of the Ring match strikes me as awfully boring. Hart's gone, anyway, so it's a moot point. He has some strong stuff and also some weak stuff (I don't like Hart vs. Sid, the South Africa match is boring, and the Owen Hart RAW match is totally forgettable). 1997: I'm kind of a moderate on HIAC. I think that it's great but not close to perfect. I don't mind Michaels' escaping the cell; I mind that it hurt a gimmick match that has endured, but it wasn't a sure thing that HIAC would happen again after Badd Blood then. I really like the KOTR match against Austin, but that's mostly an Austin match. Michaels has some strong TV performances, too, but I don't think that he can match up to Bret's matches at WrestleMania, Canadian Stampede, and One Night Only. I'd give three of those years to Hart and one to Michaels (he'd probably have won it even had Hart stuck around), and I'd call 1995 a push (I'd lean toward Hart for it). As for non-gimmicked Michaels performances, I think that Mind Games didn't really need the table spot and superkick spot to be great, and, without those, the match isn't really that gimmicked. I also like the KOTR match vs. Austin and the Survivor Series match vs. Sid a whole lot, but I think that that's kind of a minority opinion, as I like Michaels more than most people here (I think). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Graham on the other hand. I liked the Dusty Rhodes matches a lot and there was a really good Mil Mascaras match for the WWWF Title. Oddly, that was the best Mascaras match I've seen too. Yikes. Mil had really good matches with Jumbo and The Destroyer. There also was praise for all four of his matches that made the DVDVR 80s AJPW set from a pretty wide variety of the people who dropped comments in the threads. John I think the Graham match is better than the Mask 10 match with the Destroyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 I agree with Paul that the Ladder Matches hold up and I have no problem with someone rating Shawn on top for the decade but I think it is curious that if you look at Shawn's absolute best matches they are all heavily gimmicked to the gills, with one notable exception that comes to mind: Ladder matches v. Razor Good Friends Better Enemies HITC MindGames MindGames technically didn't have a "gimmick" but there is no disputing it was a "gimmick match" in the sense most would identify the term. The one "exception" to this rule would be Jarrett v. Michaels. I have no problem calling that a great match, but I think it is CLEAR the match was worked TN style, in front of a Nashville crowd, with a Jarrett. No way in hell I'm saying Shawn doesn't deserve any of the credit, or even a lot of the credit, but it's the one time I can really remember Shawn working a match like that, so I think Jarrett deserves a lot more credit for it than he has often been given. I don't think it is unfair to say those are the "consensus" best Shawn matches of the 90's. I'm not a huge fan of HITC, but I am a really big fan of all of the other matches myself. Still it is glaring to me that Shawn has exactly ONE great match from his peak decade that I would call gimmick free. Perhaps he deserves credit for being master of the gimmick match. Hell I've made that point in the past myself. But it would be nice if there were more Shawn matches that were great that were absent a gimmick. The fact that I would question the degree to which Mind Games was all that gimmicky notwithstanding, I think this is an aspect of Shawn's legacy that kind of hurts him. I made the point in the 00s thread that the decade as a whole was kind of weak due largely to all the gimmick matches that relied on smoke and mirrors. Shawn's as responsible as anyone for the proliferation of those matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Is Graham/Race title vs title any good? I know it went 60 and was bloody, but I'm only aware of the existence of a few clips of the match that were originally shown on 24/7 (high quality footage though) and not the full match. The clips are nothing special as far as making it seem like a great match or anything. I think the consensus from those who saw it live is that it was raining and the ring was soaked, which helped make it difficult to work. Besides the conditions, apparently neither Race or Graham had a particularly great night in the ring either. As far as Graham goes, yeah he was pretty limited, but the nuclear heat his matches could command (especially his 70s MSG stuff) puts him far ahead of Jesse in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 People can say MindGames wasn't gimmicky but I thought it was deliberately tailored to be just that given the setting. It's a great match but when I think about it I think about five things: Shawn freaking out at a blown spot. Foley's hangman spot/with the mandible claw. The table bump. The chair assisted superkick. The dogshit finish. Scorpio wrestled in ECW where a very large portion of matches included crowd brawling, table spots, chair spots, et. I can pull a lot more from some of his matches - even ones that have more prop use - than I can from Mind Games. That may be because those matches are fresher in my mind...in part. But at least some of it is the fact that MindGames was a gimmicky match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I wasn't one of them, I pretty much despise Mil's matches on the set and hate Mil. I saw that when looking at the threads. I think the positive vs negative was at least 2-1, if not 3-1. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I think the Graham match is better than the Mask 10 match with the Destroyer. I don't think the Graham match is close to the 07/25/74 match. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I remember liking one Destroyer match and not liking the other one. I don't think I've seen the Jumbo match but I probably have it on some random DVD I haven't got to yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Don't get a swell head about it John, but damn your Chicago/Spears/Hogan/Cher/Edge/Warrior/Sting argument is a thing of beauty. Yeah, this. Really, aside from the Owen matches and the 123 Kid Raw match what are the other really great Bret matches in ’94? Backlund feud produced some great matches. I don't recall if the matches delivered in the ring but I dug the Lawler feud. Owen & Bret vs The Steiners was in 94. Bret vs Nash 6/161994 i'd call great, he has another Nash singles match ealier in the year that I recall being really good. Speaking of which The Rumble match with Nash is pretty good, but the Survivor Series one, cool ending aside, I always felt dragged. Little surprised that people aren't higher on this . For me i'd legit have it in my top 100 fave matches ever. HBK/Jarrett on the other hand I never enjoyed that much or atleast not to the lvl most people here seem to. Entirely possible i'd like it more today if I rewatched it as it's been a few years but the previous few times I watched I came away thinking it was good but nothing special. I don't think it is unfair to say those are the "consensus" best Shawn matches of the 90's. I'm not a huge fan of HITC, but I am a really big fan of all of the other matches myself. Still it is glaring to me that Shawn has exactly ONE great match from his peak decade that I would call gimmick free. Perhaps he deserves credit for being master of the gimmick match. Hell I've made that point in the past myself. But it would be nice if there were more Shawn matches that were great that were absent a gimmick. Michaels & Austin vs Owen & Bulldog in 97. More in the good then great pile but i'll bring up HBK/Austin vs LOD from either the week before or week after this. I'd have to re-watch to rank it properly but Michaels vs Austin in 97 deserves a mention atleast I think And just completely random, I have foggy memories of a damn good HBK vs Rad Radford tv match from I want to say 95. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Sorry but "aside from the Owen and Kid [and Backlund] matches" is a comical way to look at 94 for Bret. I mean "aside from the Steamboat and Funk matches" what does 89 Ric Flair have? No Bret' 94 isn't quite at that level but it's comparable from the perspective that the Owen matches are considered iconic Classics and secondary feud is based around psychotic, "old man" wrestler, thinking he is owed the title and going on a psychotic rampage. The better question is "did Michaels do anything in 94 that matches an all time classic rivalry plus well regarded hate filled feud with hot angle [plus widely loved vet v. upstart "classic"]." I like 90's Michaels fine but you'd really have to stretch his resume to absurd lengths to see something out of his 94 that matches up with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 While I find nothing wrong with the thought of gimmick matches being better than normal matches, the way I weigh one is different than the way I weigh the other. Gimmick matches are a stretch. They're largely unrealistic. Highspots that would equal 'death' in a normal match are no-sold because of time constraints and more Michael Bay bumps are still to come. That is definitive of the post-2000 era mainstream wrestling. I like them more than most though. It is nothing more than stunt men performing acts of insanity in front of live crowds, only, they're not trained stunt men in the sense of their performance. There are times when a TLC match will interest me more than some '89 Flair match, or the '92 Bret-Davey match. There are times when I hardly watch any American wrestling at all - only All Japan. Nevertheless, when I see something like Bret-Davey x2, Bret-Owen x2, Bret-Austin x2 - they're undeniably great wrestling matches. And there are only a handful of gimmick matches in the US during the nineties that can beat any one of those matches out, and to me, Shawn wasn't in any of them besides the pseudo-gimmick match against Mankind. The two ladder matches were good, but kind of like Tiger-Dyno, they were good for their time. Because gimmick matches are really pointless without having lots of gimmicks, like, watching Clive Myers and some other felxible WOS worker doing Cirque du Soleil on a ladder doesn't sound realistic nor entertaining. Taking huge bumps a la a Hardy Boy wasn't around yet. But a Hardy Boy ladder match is better than a Michaels ladder match for the same reason Dawn of the Dead (2004) is better than Night of the Living Dead (1968). 'Ladder match' = 'people falling from the top of the ladder'. Kind of like King of the Hill. So when I see a ladder match that had smart spots, but little bumps, and, then watch another match that has smart spots as well, but a lot of *big* bumps - I'm gonna like #2 more. But if some of you guys think otherwise, that's fine too, they're all good matches anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Sorry but "aside from the Owen and Kid [and Backlund] matches" is a comical way to look at 94 for Bret. I mean "aside from the Steamboat and Funk matches" what does 89 Ric Flair have? No Bret' 94 isn't quite at that level but it's comparable from the perspective that the Owen matches are considered iconic Classics and secondary feud is based around psychotic, "old man" wrestler, thinking he is owed the title and going on a psychotic rampage. The better question is "did Michaels do anything in 94 that matches an all time classic rivalry plus well regarded hate filled feud with hot angle [plus widely loved vet v. upstart "classic"]." I like 90's Michaels fine but you'd really have to stretch his resume to absurd lengths to see something out of his 94 that matches up with that. LOL! Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 'Ladder match' = 'people falling from the top of the ladder'. It's what it has sadly become with the TLC era and the Hardys/E & C/Dudley Boys so called "great" matches. To me Michaels vs Razor holds up better than anything that has been done after because they simply didn't work the match with the purpose of setting up high falls through tables. The match makes sense, the ladder is used both as a way to get the belt (something that has become secondary in pretty much every ladder match since then, as it is obvious people only climb to jump off and get a "holy shit" chant) and as a weapon. The timing, selling, building to the eventual big falls (resulting in an ending attempt) are amazing and it's much better than any stupid stunts guys like Jeff Hardy would perform. No one learned from Michaels vs Razor when doing the ladder matches. Rock & HHH tried in 1998 and failed miserably with terrible timing and awkard spots. I guess the only two really good ladder match that came afterward were Eddie vs Syxx and Benoit vs Jericho. The rest of tem, and especially all that came from the TLC era and what followed, really is more an heritage of HITC II with the idiotic Foley bumps than anything Michaels and Razor did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 What is bad about that match? I love Arn, but that laps any 92 singles match he had to make the obvious comparison. It sounds nuts, but i think Juvy was probably the best guy in 98. The opening exchanges are poor then they take it to "the extreme" with some convoluted spots on the outside and off the top rope mixed in with some inspid crowd brawling. The pre-match angle of Douglas not respecting the TV title is "who gives a shit?" material, the post match shoot promo is nauseating and Scorpio not going for the pin and attacking Douglas at the end is tripe. I dunno, I got away more enjoyment out of Douglas tagging with Steamboat and Scorpio tagging with Bagwell than I did from this match. I'm not a big fan of Arn's singles stuff from '92 (i.e. against Dustin and Big Josh), except for perhaps some of his shorter stuff, but his work in tags destroys this match seven times over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Maybe I'll watch it and review for the purposes of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I really wanted to like it. I had this whole big idea worked up that I could watch bunches of Shane Douglas and Scorpio ECW matches, but unless there's something a little more solid and a lot less extreme I think I'll pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I wasn't a huge fan of the acclaimed Douglas/Scorpio match either. I mean, it was good for what it was, but damn, the pacing of that beast was horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 ECW World Television Champion 2 Cold Scorpio versus “The Franchise” Shane Douglas 5-11-96 A Matter of Respect Scorpio no sells fans eagerly sticking their hands out as he shakes his boofer butt. Unfortunately, the file I have is in relatively bad quality, damn WMV files. The wrestlers come face to face while Scorpio’s old school hip-hop song rings through the arena. The referee (John Finnigan) is larger than Scorpio, which I find amusing. Scorpio corrects his weight to a slim Joel Gertner, which is also amusing. Douglas drops down to counter a waist lock, which is smart wrestling and he follows it up with some posturing. Douglas postures again after a single leg-takedown, but this time, Scorpio shows his disapproval for such rudo tactics. They steal a page out of the New Japan junior’s playbook by doing the arm ringer/counter/cartwheel routine, but it isn’t as flawless as if Liger and Benoit were doing it. Scorpio back flips out of the arm ringer, which was nice, and tosses out an arm drag, but Douglas fires back with a hip toss and follows it with a standing dropkick. Greco-Roman knuckle lock along with an arm ringer by Scorpio as a female fan yells, “Twist it off!” Douglas gets out of the predicament with a short-armed clothesline. They do a whole bunch of dancing around, countering, and showing off until Douglas connects with a butterfly suplex, which draws a round of boos from the mutants. Scorpio throws in a chair, but Douglas sets it up and sits down. Douglas throws the chair into Scorpio’s head and gets an immediate nearfall – something that needed better pacing. Chairshots, even thrown chairs should be treated as legit match finishers, and just because a promotion has “Extreme” in its name shouldn’t make them above the rules of pacing and common sense spots. Douglas works Scorpio over with some running kicks, some chops are exchanged, and the annoying mutants do the mock Flair “woos”. Scorpio gets backdropped over the top rope apparently hitting his head on the apron, Douglas with a baseball slide, then a crossbody plancha, and then a nasty inverted suplex that made Scorpio’s legs bounce off the guardrail and head off the floor. That was particularly “Extreme” if I must say so. I couldn’t hear the ref start a count or while he was counting, but Scorpio made it back in right before being counted out. Scorpio is back on the offensive, which I have a problem with, and whips Douglas into the guardrail and then lariats him quite hard. Scorpio had just taken a dangerous looking bump, barely made it back into the ring before being counted out, and quickly transitions back into control. Scorpio gets lift tossed into the crowd. Scorpio is being blasted with soda cans and a frying pan, but he fires back with some right hands. I’m totally getting a WWF Bad News Brown vibe from Scorpio in this match, which isn’t a good thing. Douglas powerbombs Scorpio on the concrete floor, which draws a silenced “Oh my God” and E-C-Dub chant, but the ref starts his count too quickly as Scorpio beats the count. This non-pacing is really killing the match for me. Douglas is slamming Scorpio’s head into the turnbuckle. Scorpio kicks Douglas low twice, which takes Douglas down, and now Scorpio uses the chair, but they’re weak shots. Scorpio connects with a back-handspring back-kick, and then a standing moonsault off the ring apron. Scorpio sets up a table and wants to put Douglas through it, but the Franchise disappears out of camera view. Douglas reappears behinds Scorpio and double axe-handle smashes the Television Champion. Scorpio with a victory roll w/ bridge for a nearfall and then connects with a super kick with audible leg slapping action. They go to commercial break…and when footage resumes, Douglas is trying for a vertical suplex, which he turns into a stalled corkscrew vertical suplex for a nearfall. Douglas does something awkward looking off the top rope, which he misses, and then Scorpio beheads Douglas with a second super kick. Scorpio with a moonsault, but he doesn’t go for a pinfall attempt. Scorpio with the 450 splash, and once again, doesn’t cover Douglas. Scorpio with a rope assisted twisting leg drop, and again, doesn’t cover Douglas. Douglas is back up to his feet, which is poor pacing once again, and back suplexes Scorpio for a nearfall. A fisherman suplex by Douglas for a nearfall, followed by Scorpio blocking a belly-to-belly suplex and connecting with a lift-up urange for a nearfall. Scorpio wants a Frankensteiner, but Douglas counters with a superbomb for a nearfall. Scorpio doesn’t sell the move, because the pacing is super wack, and now Scorpio with a third super kick. Douglas with a top rope belly-to-belly superplex for the pinfall victory at the 26:31 mark to become the new ECW World Television Champion. WHAT WORKED * The early matwork was crisp, and the countering section was well executed for two American heavyweights that I’ve never seen really work that kind of catch style. * Douglas’ early match posturing. * Even though the major bumps weren’t paced well, or for that matter, sold respectably, they were still awe-inspiring as they would legit hurt the performer taking the maneuver. I have a weird method of grading moves; if they’d hurt on concrete; they pass as legit moves in my eyes. Have you ever taken a powerbomb on anything other than a pole-vaulting pad or a mattress? It hurts…it hurts badly. WHAT DIDN’T WORK * The pacing was abysmal. They crammed about forty minutes of excellent bumping, brawling, and spots into twenty-six minutes. I would have loved this match considerably more had the match lasted an additional fourteen minutes. I figure, if the match lasted that long, the huge spots, like the two large floor bumps, the Scorpio flurry of top-rope maneuvers, and the superbomb could have been sold better and more realistically. * Scorpio’s selling was terrible, but that could easily be translated to the extremely poor pacing. Scorpio channeling BNB was not flattering. And like BNB, Scorpio was portrayed as an invalid on a few occasions. What turned me off right away was the initial chair spot, where Scorpio kicked out too easily of a thrown chair spot. Things got worse from there, as he took a botched suplex into the guardrail, which made his head smack the floor; then a powerbomb on the concrete floor; and finally, a superbomb. Those were all match ending bumps in 1996, but the resilient Scorpio was determined, or something to that effect. Some three years earlier, Cactus Jack taking a powerbomb on the floor was treated as death; there isn’t a reason this shouldn’t have been looked upon in similar light. * Feuds have a tendency to progress in aggression and necessity to re-invent i.e, a German suplex wins the first match, so it won’t be winning the second match. AJ did this with the Kobashi versus Misawa feud. Misawa used to beat Kobashi like a drum, but after a few encounters, that win wasn’t as easy. These two would have a hard time following a performance like this without exposing the business worse than they already did in this one. In addition, they left little room for improvement without the rematch being underwhelming or increasingly suicidal. Some performances show the mettle of the wrestlers, as in, really gutsy matches that elevate the wrestler to a different echelon of greatness; Jeff Hardy had his courageous moment in a ladder match with the Undertaker, Kobashi had his in the June 95 classic, and Cena proved his mettle in the Last Man Standing match against Umaga. This wasn’t the match where Scorpio proved his mettle, he did nothing more than take a ton of risky bumps, as both men paced the match poorly, and it not only devalued the moves themselves, but to me, both men working the match. * The non-sensical table spot. They wasted time they could have used to smoothen out some their funky pacing problems – worse yet, no one ended up going through the table. * The commercial in the middle of the match and during a relatively hot part of the match killed a lot of the momentum the match had for me. I loathe commercial breaks in professional wrestling matches…they suck. * Who was the face and who was the heel? OVERALL THOUGHTS * While I did enjoy the match, the glaring pacing problem held this match down considerably. Without adequate pacing, an awesome match (what this could have been) is bogged down to okay levels. It seemed like they were working above their heads, trying to do an AJ styled match, but they didn’t possess the necessary time to pull it off in my eyes. In 1995, Benoit’s superbomb on Sabu, which he was slammed through Rocco, was sold as death and the most incredible maneuver of all-time. There was no way Scorpio should have been kicking out of that, especially in the manner he did. * I am somewhat terribly disappointed by this match, particularly because it has received a ton of praise for being a wonder match. I don’t see the greatness; all I see is two dudes who are trying to cram an epic match that should have taken about forty, to forty-five minutes into a twenty-six minute match and it failing. People have spouted off about how this match made storylines or something like that, but really, that’s irrelevant to me on a match-to-match basis. Kinda like the big WCCW angles, and how the abysmal in-ring work is supposedly covered for because of the before/after match angle, or storyline continuation. That’s not how I do things. * Both wrestlers seemed to be in superb shape, and their minds were cluttered with a ton of innovative ideas and groundbreaking work. They did a lot in this match; they just didn’t (couldn’t) do it mentally. There were a ton of spots and terrific bumps, but nearly everything they did suggested wasted movement and virtually no meaning behind the madness, as they showed no disregard for the maneuvers they were shelling out like an artillery barrage. This match shows it’s not what you can do, but how you do it. It was so advanced, but still, extremely basic in nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I watched the Eddie Guerrero/Scorpio TV title match, which was okay but not great. Neither guy could adjust for the length and just kept pushing it along. Scorpio was great at dropping bombs, but I fail to see how anyone would regard him as a complete worker and Eddie's babyface acting was terrible up until 2004. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I like Eddie v. Scorp. Think it is a good match. Very good even. But I don't think it's a great match by any stretch and would not make my top fifteen Scorp singles matches. Of course last time I watched it it was back to back with The Matter of Respect match which I thought was blow away great, would be my number one Scorp singles match and you didn't like so who the hell knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Kind of late to the game, but one thing I want to say for Sabu is that every year that he was really active in the States he has at LEAST one match that you can point to that really stands out as a big deal match at least by my standards. 93 - Waltman match 94 - Assorted Funk and Foley matches 95 - Al Snow Ladder Match, Foley NWC matches 96 - Scorp matches, RVD matches (I fucking hate them, but they are be all, end all in the eyes of some), Mikey matches, et. 97 - Funk matches again, particularly Born To Be Wired, Taz match at Barely Legal (not a huge fan, but again many are) 98 - Sandman Stairway to Hell 99 - RVD match (an actually really good one IMO) These aren't his only good or memorable matches, but they are immediate standout matches to me off the top of my head. When you add the "fun" novelty matches v. guys like Billy Black, One Man Gang, Smothers and others he's got a better resume than his biggest critics (and I am certainly more critical, than supportive over all) might like to admit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Sabu's '90s looks pretty good when a list is made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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