Dylan Waco Posted October 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I used to think Bock was overrated too. Watching the AWA footage it's clear that isn't true. I think he gets stereotyped as a guy who sits in holds and doesn't do much, which may be true in isolated cases, but is total bullshit as a rule. He had his go to spots like everyone else from the period, but he seemed to adapt more to his opponent/match than Flair and I'm someone who really likes Flair. People are going to be blown away by the Bock v. Wahoo match when the AWA Set hits. It's literally one of the best singles matches from anywhere on Earth in the 80's. Bock was also an extremely underrated tag team worker. It would be very hard for me to see him lower than top ten U.S. from the 80's. Even missing the last two years of the decade I would consider him a VERY strong top five contender in fact. As for Flair in 89, I loved him that year and still do. But you could construct an argument that he wasn't even the best wrestler in the World THAT YEAR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 It's really close between Flair and Lawler. I'd probably go something like this: Lawler Flair Savage Dundee Murdoch Hogan Eric Embry and Austin Idol would by high on my list. Tommy Rich too just for his heel run in 87. What's the case for Tito Santana? I know he's a good worker but was he good pre WWF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Tito has some fine matches in the AWA, but the footage is limited. His shining moment there is the Strike Force v. High Flyers tag that is really a great match and you could argue Tito was the best guy in it. He also has a really good match with Billy Robinson, though only about half of it is shown. Tito's strength is his stuff with Valentine and Savage, combined with his consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I don't know about that. 1989: Flair: 2/20/89 vs. Steamboat 3/18/89 vs. Steamboat x2 4/2/89 vs. Steamboat 5/7/89 vs. Steamboat 11/15/89 vs. Funk Live audiences got to see: 2-23-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-11-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-12-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-23-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-26-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 3-31-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-8-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-20-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-22-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat 4-23-89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat I doubt that any of those matches, none of which I have seen, would be anything less than really enjoyable. I have no reason to think that. Same that I wouldn't think one of their untaped/never released/locked away somewhere sixty-minute draws wouldn't be worth my time to watch. Just sayin' I can't help but believe that if those matches were available on tape, the clear winner would be obviously Flair. To be stripped of an easy victory by a technicality - to tape something that people *would* buy. Who knew? However, I can see an argument of Steamboat having a better year, but I think the weight of that argument depends on other Steamboat matches being better than other Flair matches. Flair has his stuff with Funk, and while Steamer had some good ones of his one, notably, against Luger, I can't put much faith in the Luger matches in comparison to the Funk I Quit match. But in the world? Guys like Tenryu and Jumbo come to mind for All Japan. Kawada and Fuyuki are good 2nd tier choices from AJ. Hansen is a shoe in. Maeda in UWF, Funaki too. New Japan had the beloved IWGP Title Tournament. Hashimoto is an expected choice singularly, but surprisingly, so is Hashimikov. Liger too, Sano as well. WWF had Rockers, HF, and Brainbusters, and Savage. NWA had Steamer, and Funk at the end of the year. Nothing comes to mind right away for Memphis in '89. I have the set, so if there is one, I'll watch the disc/match again. I haven't seen much lucha in the '80s, but I do have a handful of the more esteemed matches. Dandy looked really good in the two I have of him, which are both against Emilio. The other two matches I have from lucha in '89 is Estrada/Cruz 10/20 and Brazo/Morgan 11/16. They're fantastic too. I could definitely see an argument for one of those guys if they have more matches like the ones I've seen them in already. Embry comes to mind for World Class. Benoit and Johnny Smith were tearing it up in Stampede in '89, which was a continuation of their '88 matches/feud. No idea about joshi. --- There was a lot to enjoy from '89 wrestling. Flair in '89 is a favorite of mine, but lucha was probably just as great, only in different ways. Embry was awesome, but not Flair/Steamboat. I don't know about NJ stuff either. It was good, but not quite enough. WWF is a no. Memphis, still can't think of a big one, and I don't want to guess from a list. I'd say no to the UWF guys. No to Kawada and Fuyuki. Benoit/Smith is really entertaining, but its not as good. But I'd say yeah to Jumbo/Tenryu 6/5. It at the least beats out a few, maybe all the Flair/Steamboat matches, let alone, Flair/Funk. But that's only one match. It'd be the Match of the Year, but wouldn't hold much in-terms of Worker of the Year. So it comes down to Flair versus Lucha. Or if there are joshi matches, etc. The 80s is so much more interesting than the nineties or the 00's. Same goes for the 70s. There were some freaking awesome matches in those two decades, and I've seen most of the nineties and most of all the 00's 'required' viewing. What are some recommended viewing for lucha other than the stuff I've mentioned already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 So it comes down to Flair versus Lucha. Or if there are joshi matches, etc. If she hadn't retired in May Chigusa would have a case Of what's available on tape she's in most of your really high end joshi matches that year. vs Lioness 1/29 i'd put up against Flair's best in 89, maybe the best singles those 2 had together. vs Hokuto 3/19 and w Lioness vs Hokuto & Suzuka 4/27 are up thear in that same lvl w Lioness vs Mika Komatsu & Yumi Ogura 3/4 is a match I personally haven't seen but i've heard great things about Lot of other matches besides those in the good catagory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Tito has some fine matches in the AWA, but the footage is limited. His shining moment there is the Strike Force v. High Flyers tag that is really a great match and you could argue Tito was the best guy in it. He also has a really good match with Billy Robinson, though only about half of it is shown. Tito's strength is his stuff with Valentine and Savage, combined with his consistency. I had no idea Santana and Martel teamed in AWA. This was early-80s? How long did it last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 How was Eadie in AWA? I haven't seen enough of his higher profile GCW stuff either, just jobber matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Eadie was fine in the AWA but wasn't around long enough to make a huge impact. His best matches in the company were the main event of Starrcage and a match v. Blackwell where if Blackwell won he got five minutes with Adnan. Both are great matches in my view, but I really think Blackwell is the star of both matches, with Sarge being the second best guy in the StarrCage match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Martel/Bockwinkel matches are comparable to Flair/Steamboat, and Martel/Rheingans is blowaway great. I would not put Flair ahead of Martel since he's far too hit or miss (probably in the minority on that). Steamboat would also not be ahead of Martel. His mid-80s WWF run is disappointing. I don't know if it was the gimmick, the style, or something else... but it didn't click. I would say he still had a good run, but the difference between his WWF and WCW work is like night and day. When you stack them up, I can't see an argument for not putting Tito ahead of Steamboat in the 80s either. Steamer had the Flair matches (and in the end had a better career) but when they were in the same setting, against the same opponents (Valentine, Savage, Orton, Roberts, Orndorff, Reed, Muraco, HTM, etc) I think Tito looked better. I'm not sure I buy the bolded part and I really like Tito. I DO think Tito was a better at playing "fired up" babyface than Steamboat who only occasionally hit the level with that act that you hoped (really like him in the Valentine match from 85(86?) and the Vader 94 SN match to take the two most obvious examples), but if you compare him head to head v. those guys with Tito v. those guys I'm not sure Tito really did look better. Tito definitely had better matches v. Valentine for example but he had a real feud v. Valentine and Steamer's major one off match against him was really fucking good. There is no reason to think he couldn't have hit the level Tito hit if there had been a storyline of substance there. Savage I really like the Tito stuff, but at BEST Tito is even with Steamboat and frankly that is a really generous appraisal. I'm not a fan of The Big Even match, but Steamboat and Roberts did have a match that is better than any Tito v. Roberts match I recall. Tito has good matches v. Orton, Reed and Orndorff but I don't know that I've ever even seen a Steamer match against one of those guys so I don't really have a thought on that. Don't recall either guy doing anything of note v. Honky. Steamer also has the very good Bret tv match as far as 80's WWF matches of note and of course there is the great tag match with them working together v. The Dream Team that jdw and I are both very high on. I could see a case for Tito having the better WWF run but I don't think it's clear cut enough to go to bat for it one way or the other. When you factor in the Flair matches, Steamboat's 90's run (which I think pretty well kills Tito's 90's run), Final Conflict, et. I think it becomes really hard to argue that Tito has enough to be rated over Steamboat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Tito has good matches v. Orton, Reed and Orndorff but I don't know that I've ever even seen a Steamer match against one of those guys so I don't really have a thought on that. Don't recall either guy doing anything of note v. Honky. I know Steamer worked Reed. Steamer had a match that was rated pretty high on the DVDVR WWF 80's set with Orton. The match also shows up on his WWE DVD that came out a couple of years ago. He also had some of HTM best matches. They weren't great, but I would rate them slightly behind Funk's work with JYD as a comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Funk is a guy I think had an underrated WWF run. There are no great matches there but he was paired off with people like Hogan, Morales, JYD and Lanny Poffo and I don't think I have seen a single match from his time there that wasn't entertaining. The Poffo match is actually really fucking fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Funk is a guy I think had an underrated WWF run. There are no great matches there but he was paired off with people like Hogan, Morales, JYD and Lanny Poffo and I don't think I have seen a single match from his time there that wasn't entertaining. The Poffo match is actually really fucking fun.Terry and Dory vs. JYD and Tito from Mania 2 is most definitely a great match. It blows away the Dream Team/ Bulldogs match. I think the Terry/ Hogan match from SNME is pretty fucking great, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 There are actually a ton of Dory tags that I wish were taped. Tito and Flair are definitely interesting cases since both of them have certain rigid thoughts about what a match should be. Tito felt strongly that he should outwrestle the heel at the beginning, the heel should cheat to get over him and then cheat to stay on top during the heat segment, and then he should have his comeback leading to the finish. That's not exactly rocket science but he didn't want the heel to be able to keep up with him wrestling wise in the shine segment, for instance. But yeah, Tito has tons of great matches, included some stuff that hasn't been seen as much like Tito vs Windham in 89 and a couple of Tito vs Harley matches I really need to see at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Can you outline how Flair's philosophy differs from Tito's? Just really interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 If you look at the Toronto matches, Steamboat/Savage is a poor man’s version of Tito/Savage. I just think Tito was better at working feuds than WWF Steamboat. Santana didn’t have the opportunity to work a WM-type match with Savage, but those tag matches over the summer of ‘86 are pretty great. Santana had a good match with Roberts in Houston. It was a one off, but it’s better in relation to the Steamboat/Roberts feud than Steamboat’s match with Valentine in relation to the Tito/Valentine feud (if that makes sense). If you go year by year, Steamboat is ahead of Tito in ’89 and possibly ’83 (but really on the strength of one match). Every other year Tito wins, imo. If I were ranking them for the 80s it would go Tito -> Martel -> Steamboat, but everyone would be very close. If it were career v career it’s Steamboat in a walk ahead of the other two. I am not trying to denigrate Steamer, he is one of my top 3 favorite wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Funk is a guy I think had an underrated WWF run. There are no great matches there but he was paired off with people like Hogan, Morales, JYD and Lanny Poffo and I don't think I have seen a single match from his time there that wasn't entertaining. The Poffo match is actually really fucking fun. He also had a match from MSG against Mr. Wrestling II that was on a recent Schneider Comp. It's really fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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