Wrestler Of The Year...???

[Matt D]

What is irritating about the crowd?

I think my main problem is that I've been watching SO much 80 Memphis, 85 NWA (though the Saturday Night crowd had some bad elements even then) and 85 Mid-South... somewhere around 10 shows a week in total, that watching a 2011 studio audience is soul crushing. The fact that Husky is over with them in what seems to be a mostly earnest, non-ironic way is a HUGE testament to him.

[Dylan Waco]

Oh I agree that it is shitty that the newer guys have been pushed so horribly. But at least they are getting main events and it's not the same old guys working for the belts on every ppv and tv show

[tomk]

[

Cena is the default for a lot of people but he seems particularly stale this year and I'm not terribly sure that he is a draw in any meaningful sense when buyrates continue to shit the bed with him on top, ratings are going South, et.

Also, while he has had an underwhelming year, I still think Cena is the best pick.

Underwhelming year?

 

I thought people liked his performances in the matches opposite Miz, Killings, and Punk ( I haven't seen the Del Rio matches yet). I mean yes Cena's been booked horribly and ridiculously weak (and I'm not sure when exactly he was booked well) , and yes the WWE is a fucking mess where the booking goal is still to build shows around getting HHH over instead of protecting their top star....but when Cena has been put in matches where he has to deliver this year I thought he delivered. In 2011, he's a guy who I actively look forward to seeing wrestle (similar to how I felt during that 96 Edge, Kevin Federline, Umaga, Khali, Michaels, Lasley run).

 

 

I really think the days of being a draw as criteria should be a thing of the past. It just doesn't matter like it used to. The days of the territories are gone. PPV numbers are down all over. Ratings are down. Shit, there's not a draw anywhere in all of wrestling, so why are we still holding it against people?

I can't really argue against this BUT if we have given him credit for years for holding steady essentially, with business seemingly trending down across the board should that note be held against him? Cena is the "default" answer in a way, but I find it hard to build a compelling case for him

In the May 2008 issue of the Observer Meltzer wrote:

 

"Wrestling today is a huge entertainment brand event and it is the brand name, and not the wrestlers, who are the primary draw. SummerSlam tops 500,000 buys because it's SummerSlam. They did the same business last year without Hogan as they did the year before with Hogan wrestling Orton, so the days of Hogan (or...any individual...) making a huge difference all by himself are over and I think that's a big part of the issues, because McMahon essentially told him that."

In the same issue Meltzer wrote about Cena v JBL being an undercard match on the PPV where after the match you could see people get up and leave.

 

Mcmahon/Helmsley want desperately to create a product where they can tell someone that no person makes a difference but the reality is that Cena makes a difference.

 

Meltzer said something similar this year about how they have to keep coming back to Cena because he is the only person who actually works. Loss' comparison with late 80s/90s Flair is an apt one. The bookers desperately want to have someone else on top, but they are begrudgingly forced to return to him.

[Tim Evans]

What is irritating about the crowd?

I think my main problem is that I've been watching SO much 80 Memphis, 85 NWA (though the Saturday Night crowd had some bad elements even then) and 85 Mid-South... somewhere around 10 shows a week in total, that watching a 2011 studio audience is soul crushing. The fact that Husky is over with them in what seems to be a mostly earnest, non-ironic way is a HUGE testament to him.

 

 

FCW's tv crowds are horrible. They are almost always quiet but they do tape 3 1 hr shows and it can get repetitive. Husky gets a good reaction and so does Seth Rollins, Bo and Richie Steamboat before he turned heel.

 

I shouldn't have said that Mark Henry was the only reason. I'm a fan of guys like Dolph, Del Rio, Sin Cara azul and Negro, and even Vickie Guerrero. I'm usually a HHH defender but even I'm getting sick of him. And like Dylan said, the writing is just awful now. Plus I think I've listened to too much Bryan Alvarez and his negativity has gotten to me.

[Mad Dog]

I'm not going to defend the WWE product over all right now but "hope you guys like John Cena and Randy Orton (and HHH)" is something that could have been said for years now. If anything the absence of guys like Edge, Batista, Taker, Michaels, et. has opened up the top of the card dramatically. The problem is the writing sucks.

I think the problem is, it's been so long since they've had to create a consistent main eventer that they've kind of forgotten how to. They wanted ADR to be that and they continually jobbed him in key situations, they wanted Punk to climb to that level and he got sucked up in the HHH vacuum. The problem is they don't think about anything long term. So they'll essentially bury a guy like Sheamus or Goldberg in various segments and then wonder why they aren't over when they come to the ring.

 

For someone to become a legit month to month main event calibur guy, they need to think long term and approach every segment with caution.

[tomk]

I had forgoten about the Cena v Rey match which was well regarded too.

 

Anyways I was posting on the DVDVR and did some counting on my fingers which I assume I made a bunch of math mistakes and failed to carry numbers etc.Someone fix my math.

 

There have been 1758 between 2008 and today.

 

Cena has only held the world championship belt 285 days

Same period HHH held it 280 days

Randy Orton held it 364

A bunch of other folks have held it the other 800 some odd days.

 

During that period Cena's longest title run was 84 days long, Long enough to win it defend on PPV and then loose to next challenger.

Even if you think there is money in the chase Dusty chased Flair. He didn't chase Flair beat him, then loose to the Spoiler chase him, eventually beat him only to then loose his first defense to the Spoiler, chase him and then beat him to only loose to the Bobby Jaggers, chase him beat him and then not be able to succesfully defend opposite Buddy Wolf, etc.

 

Over on the figurefour board Meltzer has been arguing lately that Austin's real big push only started in 98 when he hooked up opposite Tyson. I think that's a nutty point, but if you were to accept it, then Cena has never had that type of moment. There has been no point where the fed has organized itself around being anchored by Cena the way they did around Austin in 98.

 

When HHH was the heel anchor of RAW, there was a structure in place where you could build up faces on Smackdown and then ship them to RAW where he would eat them up and spit them back over to Smackdown. There isn't any real structure in place to build up heels so that they can be fed to Cena. One of my favorite stories from Cenas longest title run, was that Lashley wanted to turn heel to work the Cena match but that the bookers nixed it and he got a bad reputation as uppity guy who wanted changes as a result of that request. The fed was more interested in protecting their investment in the face Lashley build than they were in giving their top face a heel opponent.

 

The WWE has convinced itself and tells their employees that it is that it is the brand name and not the wrestlers who are the draw.

 

Cena is pretty clearly the top star in the fed, but the fed has no interest in booking around protecting their #1 star.

 

The promotion is convinced that the name "Summerslam" is the draw and you book around that instead of booking around building up the wrestlers actually headlining it.

 

Despite that, wether the WWE likes it or not, Cena is still pretty clearly their #1 star, guy who moves the needle and has delivered in his PPV matches.

[Matt D]

Over on the figurefour board Meltzer has been arguing lately that Austin's real big push only started in 98 when he hooked up opposite Tyson. I think that's a nutty point, but if you were to accept it, then Cena has never had that type of moment. There has been no point where the fed has organized itself around being anchored by Cena the way they did around Austin in 98.

 

When HHH was the heel anchor of RAW, there was a structure in place where you could build up faces on Smackdown and then ship them to RAW where he would eat them up and spit them back over to Smackdown. There isn't any real structure in place to build up heels so that they can be fed to Cena.

Granted, I'm mostly going off of secondary information as I wasn't watching much then, but it SEEMS like Khali and Umaga were both built to some similar degree, no?

[tomk]

Yeah that seems accurate for those two.

[Coffey]

I'm curious where the loose/lose stuff came from. I never used to see it and now it appears to be everywhere. That might be my biggest pet peeve ever. Loose is the opposite of tight, not what happens when you're defeated. STOP IT!

[tomk]

I've been fucking that up for over twenty years. It's part of me being an awful writer fixated on closet homophones.

[El-P]

I'm curious where the loose/lose stuff came from. I never used to see it and now it appears to be everywhere. That might be my biggest pet peeve ever. Loose is the opposite of tight, not what happens when you're defeated. STOP IT!

They way it's used in France would drive you crazy then. We have an expression made out of the English verb "to lose" which is "La lose", which we use to describe something that fails big time, or is totally pathetic. And of course, most French people write it "loose" instead of "lose".

[Dylan Waco]

Should make the point that I think Cena has been good in the ring this year. The best he's been since 07. Thought I made this point earlier in the thread. Perhaps not.

 

As for moving the needle...where is the evidence? He clearly still sells merch, but so does Punk. The business certainly seems to be slipping, at least in the sense that the traditional ways of evaluating it are not doing very well. I'm not saying Cena should be blamed for that, but is being public face of company on the slide really a strong case for WOTY?

[Loss]

Leading a declining company is not a WOTY case, but being the only thing that keeps people watching a declining company is. Again, I recall late 80s Ric Flair.

[Matt D]

Leading a declining company is not a WOTY case, but being the only thing that keeps people watching a declining company is. Again, I recall late 80s Ric Flair.

People being the general TV Audience?

[Dylan Waco]

Is Cena really the only thing? Maybe, but I don't get that impression. Just a couple of months back people were tuning out in huge numbers for segments without Punk.

 

***************************

 

Again I'll note that Rey gets moved from SD and the SD suddenly starts to tank in terms of business. Rey leaves promotion for surgery in middle of August and buyrates/ratings start to go down.

 

Now some of that is coincidence no doubt as the timing coincides with botch Punk push, return of HHH, Monday Night Football, et. But I also think Rey is a guy who fills four important roles for the company:

 

1. Guy used to draw Latino demographic

2. Guy used to sell merch to kids

3. Guy used as established vet to help newly pushed talent

4. Guy used as reliable guarantee of at least one quality match on every show

 

It is hard enough to replace one of those things - replacing four is nearly impossible to do quickly, especially if you are trying to find all of that in one person. On top of that Rey being out hurt their depth at a point when the top of the card depth was at an all time low.

 

Now I'm not arguing for Rey as the WOTY, but I also think it is unrealistic to say that him leaving hasn't had an adverse effect on business.

 

Rey is a guy that can be used all over the card against anyone. You can't say that of Cena. That's not a knock on Cena, but I think part of the problem with the WWE now is they have a very narrow concept of how to use certain people and the guys that can work utility are dwindling in number

[Matt D]

I think the Rey thing can't be denied. Orton's booked way higher on the card than Rey, but SD tanked after Rey left.

 

I suppose there is the Edge factor as well to think about, though. The SD that Edge was advertised for didn't pop a number, right?

[Dylan Waco]

I think the SD with Edge did well at the gate. Not sure about rating wise. I also think the SD after Henry won the title did a higher number than it had been doing though I could be mixing things up

[NintendoLogic]

SD ratings have spiked significantly since Henry won the title. Apparently, they're attributing it internally to SD guys appearing on Raw more.

[Loss]

Instead of "Hey, we're actually booking a top heel like a top heel. Maybe we should try that more often."

[El-P]

And wait until the ratings drop a bit.

HHH : "You see, Mark Henry doesn't work."

Or something to that effect.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm going to look at the live attendance figures for SD. Looking at the ratings it's actually pretty amazing how strong the last month has been. They've done 13 shows over a 2.0 all year - three of them in the last four weeks (and the four show was a 1.95 which is above the yearly average). Henry's push really started in July. That's when the trend upward started. What's really crazy is that since Henry won the belt RAW is only averaging around 1.0 better than SD. If you go back and look at the year I don't see a four year period that is anything close to that.

 

Of course there are other factors like MNF, the way the brands have been mixed, et. but he's doing noticeably better on top than Orton was. I wonder how the box office looks

[Mad Dog]

Has Orton ever really been any kind of draw though. He's never seemed to deliver the kind of heat or numbers to justify his constant push. I'll admit, I fucking hate Orton and always have. I'm blinded by bias to a degree but I still feel like he's never justified the kind of push he gets.

[Dylan Waco]

It would be interesting to go back and look at how SD ran throughout the year ratings wise depending on who was on top.

 

I do know that SD has averaged 2.1 with Henry as champ. Shows without Henry as champ average a 1.9. That is not as negligible as it sounds

[Mad Dog]

That's a noticeable increase. And they essentially put the title back on Christian for a longer run because the backlash to putting the belt on Orton was that severe. There's also the fact that they were going to build Smackdown around him and he failed at really drawing. It seems like there's significantly more interest for Henry as champ.

[Stuttsy]

Also, while he has had an underwhelming year, I still think Cena is the best pick.

I agree. It's been the virtual definition of a nothing year but Cena is still the franchise player so he kind of wins by default.