1977-1984

[Log]

The time period of 77-84 came up recently. Could this be considered the hottest period for U.S. wrestling ever? It seems like pretty much every territory was drawing well during this time frame.

 

I know we have the 80's sets, but a yearbook-style comp of 77-84 would kick ass.

[Ricky Jackson]

The time period of 77-84 came up recently. Could this be considered the hottest period for U.S. wrestling ever? It seems like pretty much every territory was drawing well during this time frame.

 

I know we have the 80's sets, but a yearbook-style comp of 77-84 would kick ass.

I'm not sure it was the hottest period ever, as I've read that the 70-73 period was maybe the hottest as far as having the most territiories doing record business at the same time is concerned. Also, many once thriving territories like LA, San Fran, Detroit, Vancouver, St. Louis, Amarillo, and Montreal either declined greatly or outright died during the 77-84 period. That being said, it was still a pretty hot era, and in the last few years I've really come to see the 77-84 period (I would even say 75-85) as perhaps the most exciting and diverse period ever. WWF, Crockett, Georgia, Stampede, World Class, Memphis, Toronto, Portland, AWA, Mid South, Florida, etc. all went through super hot periods with tons of memorable characters, matches, and angles during the time, of which I've barely scratched the surface when it comes to watching certain territories. And this is not even factoring in Japan, England and other countries. Just a really fun time, and sometimes I wish I had been old enough to have been a fan then (born in 77, but not a fan until 86).

[jdw]

The time period of 77-84 came up recently. Could this be considered the hottest period for U.S. wrestling ever? It seems like pretty much every territory was drawing well during this time frame.

 

I know we have the 80's sets, but a yearbook-style comp of 77-84 would kick ass.

My recollection is that Will indicated they would do yearbooks on the 80s when the DVDVR 80s Projects are done.

 

70s would be very interesting, but most of the material is from four sources:

 

* NJPW

* AJPW

* IWE

* WWWF/WWE

 

I suspect there's more NJPW than AJPW, and Dan just blew my mind recently with how close he is to having all of the NJPW from 1978 & 1979:

 

1979 - "missing maybe 14 matches"

1978 - "missing missing 27 matches"

 

He's just 6 matches short on 1980... and everyone knows Dan when he's on the hunt to finish one of these things off.

 

Anyway, there's quite a bit of NJPW and AJPW. IWE has come out with a number of sets, along with earlier matches in circulation. There are a number of 70s WWWF/WWF house shows out there, but more in 1977-79 than earlier. Assorted matches here and there as well.

 

In addition to those, there's some misc matches out there, some AJW late in the decade, some other promotions.

 

The early part of the decade would be smaller sets. Later part of the decade more. I doubt any year would ever get to 30 discs in the sense of Will & Loss having to worry about cutting it down to fit within that.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Worth noting that there is a solid amount of late 70's Portland available and a very good bit of World of Sport.

[Ricky Jackson]

There seems to be a fair amount of 70s Stampede kicking around, or at least the late-70s/ early-DK and Bret era. I'm no expert, but there also seems to be plenty late-70s Georgia TBS stuff, and some Crockett, Florida, and Memphis, among others. Isn't there also a fair amount of AWA from the 70s around? Or is most of this territory footage hidden away in a vault in Stamford?

 

Anyway, I think a decent set could be made of (at least) 75-79 wrestling and it would not have to be overwhelmingly WWWF/Japan. Unfortunately, most of the big house show matches from the main territories were never filmed, so it would be mostly TV angles and matches.

[Loss]

The 70s would be interesting if the 8mm footage/JIP stuff was mixed in as well. You'd have a lot of clipped stuff/incomplete matches, but taken together, I think it would be interesting. Mixing in the Mid Atlantic film footage, AWA stuff that's out there, Florida 8mm matches, San Francisco stuff, etc.

 

What I wonder is if a single 30-disc "yearbook" could be created covering the period from Stetcher/Caddock from 1920 (the oldest available match I know of) through the end of the 1960s. Then another single 30-disc yearbook could cover the entire decade of the 1970s. Starting with 1980, it would be full sets for each year.

 

That's my vision of how it could work early on, and I might find that changing as I find out what's out there.

[jdw]

I think there's probably more than 30 disks for the 70s.

 

What I was trying to get across is that when Dan says that he's missing just 41 matches from NJPW in 1978-79, it means he has a lot of stuff. There were about 250 matches on TV for NJPW in 1978-79. Dan has about 200 of them. This is Fujinami's prime with the Jr title. For Kido fans, there are 20 matches. There are things like the Hollywood Blonds coming into NJPW. A younger Masked Superstar does two series, including big singles against Inoki and Sak, along with an interesting tag:

 

09/21/79 Antonio Inoki & Tatsumi Fujinami 2-1 Masa Saito & Masked Superstar

 

You've got Hansen coming to New Japan, an earlier Hansen-Andre, and all sorts of funky, interesting looking tags like this:

 

Antonio Inoki & Riki Choshu d. Stan Hansen & Victor Rivera

Stan Hansen & Jack Brisco d. Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi

 

I really think rather than going with a "fixed" 30 disks for the entire decade, simply look at a year at a time going forward from 1970. "Bundle" the shorter 1970 through 1974 if need be, but treat each year as it's own yearbook as different years may have more while others less. Starting with 1975 and AJPW's singles tourney, the sets get bigger... and really things like that tourney and the coming Tag Leagues are among the best examples of matches for a lot of 70s wrestlers that are out there.

 

I think the 70s are a little different from the 80s and beyond simply because there aren't 100 Pat Patterson matches out there in the 70s like there are 100 Beniot matches from the 90s to pair down, and 100 Jumbo matches. I believe there are four Patterson vs Backlund matches that are available: 2 at MSG and 2 at the Spectrum. I can see pairing that down to two matches: the MSG matches. But there's also a Pat vs Inoki in Japan that's a keeper worth seeing. And I'm sure KHawk and Kevin can point to some AWA keepers. And as much as it's a so-so match, a yearbook really should have the Patterson-DiBiase for folks to see how Ted worked in the WWF (and that myth that he could have been a better WWF Champ than Bob). There also is a Pat vs Bruno in the Spectrum that at least one collector years ago had, though I don't know if it ever found it's way into wider circulation. Pat's a HOF "worker" and Bruno is a HOFer. That's an interesting 1979 match, which if it's in circulation is totally unique: Bruno and Pat never faced each other in MSG while Bruno was champ.

 

Just would hate to see the 70s set get too narrow... there's so much interesting stuff out there, and it's never been looked at in a real organized way.

 

The 60s might be a set of it's own. It's not close to 30 disks of course. The 50s (and what little is before with ) are interesting and warrant a really interesting set. But there's more stuff from there starting to bubble up.

[Paul Jacobi]

The time period of 77-84 came up recently. Could this be considered the hottest period for U.S. wrestling ever? It seems like pretty much every territory was drawing well during this time frame.

 

I know we have the 80's sets, but a yearbook-style comp of 77-84 would kick ass.

Was it really 'hotter' than say '98-01?

 

It may be comparing apples to oranges, but the insane amount of people watching 2 companies during that boom and the WWF shattering thier own attendance records across the country is something we'll probably never see again.

[Log]

The time period of 77-84 came up recently. Could this be considered the hottest period for U.S. wrestling ever? It seems like pretty much every territory was drawing well during this time frame.

 

I know we have the 80's sets, but a yearbook-style comp of 77-84 would kick ass.

Was it really 'hotter' than say '98-01?

 

It may be comparing apples to oranges, but the insane amount of people watching 2 companies during that boom and the WWF shattering thier own attendance records across the country is something we'll probably never see again.

 

I honestly don't know. It just seems that there's been a lot of discussion around here lately of numbers for various HOF pushes, and they always seems to show good attendance regardless of the territory (for that time period). I was watching Memphis Heat a couple of nights ago, and it kind of got me thinking about how it seemed like everywhere was hot from about 75-77 to 84-85 or so. There may have been a greater number of total people watching wrestling in 98-01, but it seems like people in every area were going to shows in the late 70s-early 80s.

 

 

Also, I love the idea of a single 70's yearbook. I loved the Memphis 80's set, but it left me wanting to dig back into the 70's. That's just an under-represented time for wrestling fans. It'd be cool to get some people talking about it.

[Loss]

The time period of 77-84 came up recently. Could this be considered the hottest period for U.S. wrestling ever? It seems like pretty much every territory was drawing well during this time frame.

 

I know we have the 80's sets, but a yearbook-style comp of 77-84 would kick ass.

Was it really 'hotter' than say '98-01?

 

It may be comparing apples to oranges, but the insane amount of people watching 2 companies during that boom and the WWF shattering thier own attendance records across the country is something we'll probably never see again.

 

The peaks were higher from 98-01, but there were many more wrestlers working and making a good living in the late 70s and early 80s. 1998-2001 was more a one-company boom than it was that anything wrestling related was going to be hot. I'll take strong business in many places over record-breaking business in one place any day of the week.

[kjh]

Was the peak really higher in 98-01? The WWF was running Madison Square Garden monthly in 77-84. By 98-01 that was cut in half. In most parts of the country the peak occurred way before 98-01. I suppose it depends if the cold areas offset the hot ones.

[S.L.L.]

Was the peak really higher in 98-01? The WWF was running Madison Square Garden monthly in 77-84. By 98-01 that was cut in half.

By '98-'01 they were a national promotion. Not saying it was a hotter period overall for wrestling, but there is a reason why they ran one specific arena less.

[kjh]

Was the peak really higher in 98-01? The WWF was running Madison Square Garden monthly in 77-84. By 98-01 that was cut in half.

By '98-'01 they were a national promotion. Not saying it was a hotter period overall for wrestling, but there is a reason why they ran one specific arena less.

Well, my point was every major arena was run less. Philadelphia was run seven times by the big two in '98, whereas the old WWF ran the Spectrum 10 times a year. In the whole state of Tennessee in '98 the WWF ran two shows and WCW eleven. Less people were attending wrestling events because less shows were being held. In a lot of markets less people were watching on TV too.

[Paul Jacobi]

Was the peak really higher in 98-01? The WWF was running Madison Square Garden monthly in 77-84. By 98-01 that was cut in half.

By '98-'01 they were a national promotion. Not saying it was a hotter period overall for wrestling, but there is a reason why they ran one specific arena less.

Well, my point was every major arena was run less. Philadelphia was run seven times by the big two in '98, whereas the old WWF ran the Spectrum 10 times a year. In the whole state of Tennessee in '98 the WWF ran two shows and WCW eleven. Less people were attending wrestling events because less shows were being held. In a lot of markets less people were watching on TV too.

 

 

To suggest the peak WWF wasn't higher in '98-01 is absolutely nuts.

I'm going to use rough estimates.

77-84, they're lucky to draw 100k fans to the house shows a month (combining Bos, NYC, PHI at say 10-15k per big arena per month plus alll spot shows etc

You have a few hundred thousand watching regional tv in your loop (Bos, DC, PHI, NYC, and a few other markets)

In '98-01, you have the PPV to replace that with anywhere from 250-800 (or more) depending on which PPV was what month, plus all the house show numbers wihch are on fire *across the country* plus 5-6 million wathcing your tv each week.

It's not even a comparison. The increase in exposure, attendance and paying customers in the boom is staggering.

 

If you want to argue is the wrestling business healthier in '83 rather than '99, that's another debate, and not a totally fair one when considering the notion that the business was going to constrict based on cable and national expansion (which Dave has spoken about numerous times).

[FLIK]

Worth noting that there is a solid amount of late 70's Portland available and a very good bit of World of Sport.

When I started checking dates I was a little surprised how much 70's WoS is out thear. Atleast half of what i've seen has been 70's stuff and with a few exceptions almost all the best matches i've seen have been 70's or earlier as well (ocasionally a 60's match will pop up too).

[Loss]

Are those numbers just what you're estimating for the WWF, or for all of wrestling? The initial point I took as being about wrestling as a whole, not a single promotion.

[Paul Jacobi]

Are those numbers just what you're estimating for the WWF, or for all of wrestling? The initial point I took as being about wrestling as a whole, not a single promotion.

 

I'm referencing WWF as kjh had mentioned not running the Garden or Spectrum monthly as a reason for the WWF peak in '98-01 not possibly being bigger than '77-84.

 

Though for all of wrestling, the WWF made more in those years than any territory probably made in their entire history, so there's an argument to be made financially that it was a far better time business wise, but it's difficult to compare the revenue streams and the change in culture.

[khawk20]

When talking about Japan footage one must note the IWE material that is out there. The last one that came out had some real gems on it, including several clips of "Bobby Slaughter" matches from what was probably his rookie year (1975), really early Sheepherders clips (from 1974), and lots more.

 

AWA stuff from the 70's is not bad but a lot of it is Bob Luce stuff, which is clipped. Not all of it, though.

[Loss]

Are those numbers just what you're estimating for the WWF, or for all of wrestling? The initial point I took as being about wrestling as a whole, not a single promotion.

 

I'm referencing WWF as kjh had mentioned not running the Garden or Spectrum monthly as a reason for the WWF peak in '98-01 not possibly being bigger than '77-84.

 

Though for all of wrestling, the WWF made more in those years than any territory probably made in their entire history, so there's an argument to be made financially that it was a far better time business wise, but it's difficult to compare the revenue streams and the change in culture.

 

It is difficult to compare, but I don't think anyone would argue that the WWF from 1977-1984 was stronger than the WWF for 1998-2001. That was not the purpose of this thread (although I acknowledge what you were responding to specifically).

 

1983 in particular had almost every territory in the country doing something really big. Steamboat/Youngblood vs Slaughter/Kernodle and Starrcade in the Carolinas, the big Lawler/Dundee match in Memphis, Super Sunday in the AWA, the Freebirds vs Von Erichs in WCCW, Tiger Mask in New Japan, and probably other things I'm forgetting. The wrestling business was healthy in quite a few places.

 

Perhaps due to changes in television a monopoly was inevitable, but there were far more chances to work on top with less travel and make more money (aside from national stars like Flair, Dusty, Hogan, etc.) Wrestling was a far more lucrative business to work in if you were a headliner during the late 90s/early 00s than it was in the late 70s/early 80s, but at the same time, there were far less main event spots in the modern era.

[khawk20]

There also is a Pat vs Bruno in the Spectrum that at least one collector years ago had, though I don't know if it ever found it's way into wider circulation. That's an interesting 1979 match, which if it's in circulation is totally unique: Bruno and Pat never faced each other in MSG while Bruno was champ.

That's not out there in circulation as far as I know.

 

Here are some 70's AWA matches that would be available to pick from, of the non Bob-Luce clipped variety:

 

8/10/74 TV: Nick Bockwinkel/Ray Stevens vs. Greg Gagne/Jim Brunzell (Bobby Heenan debuts as Bock/Stevens manager)

1979 TV: Dino Bravo vs. Super Destroyer II

July 7 1977 Arena: Blackjack Lanza/Bobby Duncum (AWA Tag Champs) vs. Greg Gagne/Jim Brunzell (Winnipeg, title change)

October 6 1973 TV: Dick Murdoch/Dusty Rhodes vs. Don Muraco/Billy Robinson (2/3 falls)

1979 TV: Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champ) vs. Buck Zumhofe

7/15/79 Arena: Paul Ellering vs. Jesse Ventura (Minneapolis Auditorium Dead Lift Contest from 7/15/79),

7/29/79 TV: Greg Gagne vs. Super Destroyer Mark III

8/14/76 TV: Verne Gagne vs. George Gadaski

5/20/78 TV: Billy Robinson/Frank Hill vs. Ray Stevens/Pat Patterson

7/15/79 Arena: Billy Robinson/Dough Gilbert vs. Stan Hansen/Bobby Duncum

12/20/72 TV: Nick Bockwinkel/Ray Stevens vs. Billy Robinson/Red Bastien

1978 TV: Larry Hennig vs. Super Destroyer Arm Wrestling Challenge

1978 TV: Billy Robinson vs. Baron Von Raschke (#1 contenders match) last 7 minutes only

7/15/79 Arena: Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Greg Gagne (last 6:30 only)

2/10/79 Arena: Nick Bockwinkel vs. Verne Gagne (taped by Japan TV)

2.10/79 Arena: Tsuruta/Tenryu vs. Guy Mitchell/Roger Kirby (taped for Japan TV)

 

...plus the Japan stuff, like Verne vs. Billy.

 

..not to mention several great angles and clips, like Mad Dog's gusher against the Crusher, Vachon and Raschke attacking and bloodying Jos Leduc.

[S.L.L.]

Was the peak really higher in 98-01? The WWF was running Madison Square Garden monthly in 77-84. By 98-01 that was cut in half.

By '98-'01 they were a national promotion. Not saying it was a hotter period overall for wrestling, but there is a reason why they ran one specific arena less.

Well, my point was every major arena was run less. Philadelphia was run seven times by the big two in '98, whereas the old WWF ran the Spectrum 10 times a year.

 

Because the old WWF ran the northeast exclusively, and WCW (or what became WCW) didn't run the Spectrum at all. In '98, they both ran nationally, and no other major feds were running. Mathematically speaking, of course there were going to be less shows per arena. I'm sure folks in California and other places that didn't have/had lost viable territories think it's a fair trade.

 

In the whole state of Tennessee in '98 the WWF ran two shows and WCW eleven. Less people were attending wrestling events because less shows were being held. In a lot of markets less people were watching on TV too.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I need numbers for that last one. But really, is "volume of major wrestling events being held" the defining metric for wrestling's peak? How often individual venues are run? By these standards, has any American based wrestling promotion in any period have a higher peak than Joint Promotions? Joint Promotions was obviously successful in their day, but it somehow seems wrong to point to their strongest runs a the peak of all wrestling while Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and The Rock watch from the sidelines.

 

And again, that's not to say '98-'01 definitely is the hottest period in wrestling history - in fact, I really don't think it is - but focusing on this as a/the defining metric seems like a mistake that doesn't take into account how wrestling changed through the years.