Eduardo Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Steve Yohe on Enrique Torres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Steve Yohe on Enrique Torres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Ken Shamrock was more successful in pro wrestling than Lesnar was by a large margin. Look at his Japan resume.Seriously? I would see that actually the other way around. I feel that Shamrock has a clear edge on the MMA side but his pro wrestling success was not on par with Lesnar's success. He was the #3 or #4 guy in PWFG for two years and in WWF had the rank for about half a year or so. Afterwards he was just a midcarder. Lesnar was one of the top two guys in WWE for 18 months or so and headlined a Wrestlemania (one that didn't draw well but that is still far better than any Shamrock main event). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I don't think Shamrock was ever a top 5 guy in WWE. He had a few good runs, the feud with Rock most notably, but that was basically a stepping stone on Rock's path to the main event. He had a prominent role in the Corporation, but he was essentially a bit player while Austin, Vince, Vince's kids and Rock were the main focuses. He main evented 1 PPV, the one right after Survivor Series 97, only because they literally had nobody else to put in that spot at the time. Â They basically built the company around Brock in the summer of 02, and built SD around him from late 02 to early 04. And he was really f'n good in his role. It wasn't his fault that he came along at the time of the company's worst slump, and the peak of HHH's nepotism. I've argued the point before on this board, but HHH's god push on RAW directly hurt Brock and everyone else in WWE at the time, it was far worse than just him directly "burying" the talent he worked with. They lost their audience in droves, and it wasn't because Brock wasn't connecting with fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Pancrase wasn't that successful while Ken was in it. PWG wasn't that successful, and it's success didn't have a lot to do with Ken. In the WWF, Ken did nothing that was HOF level. Nothing in his TNA run was HOF level. Â Basically Ken is a joke as a Pro Wrestling Hall Of Fame Candidate. Â I didn't vote for Brock, but he did more in pro wrestling than Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Brock obviously did more in wrestling than Ken. Neither belongs in a pro wrestling hall of fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Slight bump to see if the other two (known) voters on the board want to post their ballots which were due yesterday. Did you make any changes evilclown? John who did you end up voting for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Hans Schmidt Kinji Shibuya  John Cena Ivan Koloff Pedro Morales Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)  Volk Han  Atlantis Cien Caras Blue Panther  Don Owen  Voted for Owen because I like to have at least one person in the non-wrestler category so that I'm in that %. I'm unenthusiastic about all of the candidates in the group, however. The Matsunagas will get a vote when they're on the ballot next year.  Not massively enthusiastic about Han, but don't really think any of the other Japanese candidates are worthy. The Sharpes aren't a "Japan" candidate, but instead a US one who like Thesz also had an impact in Japan. They should be in the old timer category, where I'd actually take them more seriously.  Honestly... not many people on the ballot that's I'd feel torn up one way or the other. Really wish Caras was group with the Dynamite Brothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 FWIW, really don't like that my "current" candidates were New York-centric. But not really enthused about the pair of Mr. Wrestlings as much as others. Need more selling there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 I'm a bit surprised you didn't have Torres on your ballot and I think the inclusion of Atlantis is interesting as he is not someone I have seen other Lucha experts really go to the wall for as often as some of the other names on the ballot. We talk about the lack of unity with the historical candidates, but I think the lack of unity surrounding Lucha experts/particular candidates is arguably even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 I'm a bit surprised you didn't have Torres on your ballot I probably will eventually vote for Torres. Didn't see any need to rush. Â Â and I think the inclusion of Atlantis is interesting as he is not someone I have seen other Lucha experts really go to the wall for as often as some of the other names on the ballot. Sims was a positive vote for him when we talked about candidates back in 2010. Jose was less high. I don't have any problem with that vote. Â Panther is mixed, but US candidates with that level of work have gone in. Â BTW: I think we need to get Dandy back on the ballot, and someone needs to do a good bio on him. Is CubsFan or someone else a big Dandy fan? Â We talk about the lack of unity with the historical candidates, but I think the lack of unity surrounding Lucha experts/particular candidates is arguably even worse. Yep. I liked the feedback I got from Jose and Sims, but they were split on a lot of the candidates. But that's common among all groups. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Cena is the only slam dunk candidate on the ballot, which is scary because he's very much in his prime and I don't think candidates like that should be entered into hall of fames. Would anybody have voted Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds into a HOF in 1997? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Dandy has supporters. Kurt Brown is a supporter and he tells me that Alfredo is a supporter to. Either guy could probably piece together a bio, though I'm not sure either guy has the time or is willing to write it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 How is El Dandy a stronger candidate than Gran Hamada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 pre-emptive "who am I to doubt El Dandy" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 My Final Ballot  I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES Gene & Ole Anderson Hans Schmidt  I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES John Cena Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)  I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES Volk Han Kiyoshi Tamura  NON-WRESTLERS Jerry Jarrett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Cena is the only slam dunk candidate on the ballot, which is scary because he's very much in his prime and I don't think candidates like that should be entered into hall of fames. Would anybody have voted Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds into a HOF in 1997? I agree on the eligibility issue, and it's one we've been around the block on a bit over the years.  On Clemens, if he died in the 1997 off season like say Clemente did and got on the ballot by special exception, he would have looked like this:  213-118 with a 2.97 ERA and 2882 K 1 MVP 4 Cy Youngs (record)  He would have been coming off a season where he went 21-7 with a 2.05 ERA & 292 K at the age of 34 in a high offense season.  He would have gotten voted in. Pitchers with that level of dominance have gotten in, with Koufax being the clear comp.  Bonds would have had a record tying 3 MVP, but it's harder to know how he would have been looked at if he Clemente'd.  But let's use the WON eligibity:  * 35th birthday and completed ten years since their debut as a full-time performer * been a full-time pro wrestler for at least 15 years  By that standard, Clemens gets there after 1998 when he won his record 5th Cy Young, pushing the career numbers to  233-124 with a 2.95 ERA and 3153 K 1 MVP 5 Cy Youngs (record)  I think if voters for more than a decade had gotten use to voting in "active" players, Clemens would have been one to go in at that point without needing a Clemente.  Bonds would not have been eligible until after 2000. Career numbers looked like:  .289/.411/.567 494 HR, 1405 RBI, 1584 R, 471 SB 3 MVP (record tying) 2-2-4-5-5-8 in other MVP voting  Coming off as .306-49-106 season where he was 2nd in the MVP voting.  Bonds wasn't beloved, so he might not have gone in. He would have laid down a good marker, though, for an active player.  2001?  .328-73-137, MLB records for HR, SLG, BB.  Barry goes in.  Now we all agree the "35/10 or 15" rule sucks and needs to change. If it were "40/15 or 20", and we applied it to baseball, we'd probably see more "active" HOFers.  John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Dandy has supporters. Kurt Brown is a supporter and he tells me that Alfredo is a supporter to. Either guy could probably piece together a bio, though I'm not sure either guy has the time or is willing to write it. I don't know how much Kurt or Alfredo actually "write" these days. That's why CubsFan might be a good one: he's been a prolific lucha writer in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 How is El Dandy a stronger candidate than Gran Hamada? I suspect Dandy Fans would say Dandy was/is the better worker. Dandy also was likely the bigger star in Mexico. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Clemens/Bonds would've gone in. The problem is that you also have candidates who LOOK like clear picks at 35, but fall off the cliff or perhaps have a steroid scandal flare up, or something of that nature. Â It's worse in pro wrestling where wrestlers are frequently big stars beyond the age of 35. Ric Flair for example would be on the ballot in such a scenario in 1984. That's a huge chunk of his career unaccounted for/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 It's worse in pro wrestling where wrestlers are frequently big stars beyond the age of 35. Ric Flair for example would be on the ballot in such a scenario in 1984. That's a huge chunk of his career unaccounted for/ Exactly. I think it should be a 20 year limit before you consider a wrestler for a hall of fame. Shawn Michaels "retired" in 1998, then came back and put in another decade of work. Would he have been inducted into the WON HOF if he'd never come back? Quite possibly. But those post-retirement years accounted for just as much of his career and were as significant. A lot of people on this board would probably argue that his comeback sucked and downgrades his rating. With wrestling.....lots of guys retire and un-retire and work into their 50's etc. John Cena is a hall of famer however you slice it.....but only 10 years or so in the biz is too soon to be inducting someone into a hall of fame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 To put it another way, and working with the baseball analogy, if Don Mattingly died in 1990, he would have been a no questions asked Hall of Famer. He struggles to get 12% of the vote in 2012. To accurately judge you need perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Hard to say isn't it, degrees of greatness. Â Bob Dylan dies in '76 he's going in no matter what, in '68 he's still probably going in no matter what, hell if he died in '64 he's still probably going in based on body of work to that point less than 4 years into his career. Â Orson Welles would be going in just after Citizen Kane alone. Â It's degrees of greatness. Â Question with Cena is whether he's on that sort of level after 10 years or not. To me it seems absurd to be thinking about him in those sort of terms, but then I'm me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Mark Madden has his say:  ....my votes go to The Assassins, Ivan Koloff, L.A. Park and John Cena.  I can't believe the Assassins and Koloff aren't long since in. The Assassins were great heels, great draws. Koloff is the best "Russian". Problem is, most people saw the fat, bloated Assassins on national TV, not the feud with the Kentuckians. Most people saw old "Uncle Ivan," not the legit bad-ass who was a WWE main-eventer and transition champion.  I don't watch a ton of Lucha, but L.A. Park is a four-time Luchador Del Ano winner. His first came in 1994, his most recent in 2011. To excel that much over that span is amazing. Flair-esque. I've always enjoyed L.A. Park as a performer, and he's always been at or near the top of the card in Mexico.  Selecting Cena in his first year of eligibility will draw howls of protest from his detractors, and they are many. But truth be told, he's the easiest pick of the bunch.  Cena has been the top babyface in the world's biggest wrestling promotion since 2004. His run challenges guys like Hogan and Sammartino in that regard. He's a 12-time world champ, if that matters. He's not necessarily been the centerpiece of a period of boom popularity, but WWE business has been steady. His merchandise MOVES. Cena is loved by girls and kids, and those are two important demographics, one wrestling sometimes has difficulty holding.  Cena is IMPORTANT. Most nominees – heck, some Hall members – could have never wrestled one match, and the business wouldn't be any different for that. You can't say that about Cena. If Cena doesn't make it, it reflects worse on the voters than it does him.  http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/2612...-of-three-divas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 It's worse in pro wrestling where wrestlers are frequently big stars beyond the age of 35. Ric Flair for example would be on the ballot in such a scenario in 1984. That's a huge chunk of his career unaccounted for/ Exactly. I think it should be a 20 year limit before you consider a wrestler for a hall of fame. Shawn Michaels "retired" in 1998, then came back and put in another decade of work. Would he have been inducted into the WON HOF if he'd never come back? Quite possibly. But those post-retirement years accounted for just as much of his career and were as significant. A lot of people on this board would probably argue that his comeback sucked and downgrades his rating. With wrestling.....lots of guys retire and un-retire and work into their 50's etc. John Cena is a hall of famer however you slice it.....but only 10 years or so in the biz is too soon to be inducting someone into a hall of fame   I thought Michaels was terrible post-comeback, but I also think it helped his over all case because he worked up top longer, including on some big show in key matches. Shawn as an all time top tier WWE/F star is still a myth (unless we think the top tier means "top twenty") propped up by the WWE hype machine, but he added meat to his argument as a drawing card/top star. DX also sold a shit load of merch in those runs.  Michaels got in way to early and in many ways was the slippery slope that has led to every other questionable candidacy/mistake sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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