WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Dylan Waco]

How is El Dandy a stronger candidate than Gran Hamada?

I suspect Dandy Fans would say Dandy was/is the better worker. Dandy also was likely the bigger star in Mexico.

 

John

 

I love Hamada and he was more influential than Dandy.

 

But I would argue that Dandy is one of the twenty best workers of all time. If that was it I would say "no" because I wouldn't vote anyone in on work alone. But Dandy was a MUCH bigger star in Mexico than say Benoit was here in the States. He was on top of several 15-20k shows and was generally regarded by Lucha fans of the late 80's/early 90's as one of the four or five best over all talents of that period at bare minimum. He really ought to be on the ballot as he compares well in many ways to several of the candidates that are currently on it. I'm far from a Lucha expert and would still consider him a solid candidate at minimum just based on what I know.

[Dylan Waco]

Hard to say isn't it, degrees of greatness.

 

Bob Dylan dies in '76 he's going in no matter what, in '68 he's still probably going in no matter what, hell if he died in '64 he's still probably going in based on body of work to that point less than 4 years into his career.

 

Orson Welles would be going in just after Citizen Kane alone.

 

It's degrees of greatness.

 

Question with Cena is whether he's on that sort of level after 10 years or not. To me it seems absurd to be thinking about him in those sort of terms, but then I'm me.

 

Name any other wrestler who was on top of the biggest promotion in the World for eight or nine years who isn't considered a lock? If business was tanking it would be one thing. It's not. Cena is one of two wrestlers in the United States that could be legitimately called a draw of note. He was the star that picked the company out of the doldrums of the HHH as god-king business years. He's not an all time great draw and you can certainly point to flaws in his candidacy, but they are pretty clearly eclipsed by the positives. There is no way you could write a history of wrestling though the present day without Cena being mentioned.

[FLIK]

The Matsunagas will get a vote when they're on the ballot next year.

Did Meltzer confirm that they will be?

[NintendoLogic]

Sims said some time ago that he wouldn't vote for Dandy due to him basically falling off the face of the Earth over the past decade. His stint as a jobber in WCW does him no favors either.

[Dylan Waco]

Sims said some time ago that he wouldn't vote for Dandy due to him basically falling off the face of the Earth over the past decade. His stint as a jobber in WCW does him no favors either.

Yeah I know Sims is opposed to him, but he doesn't strike me as viscerally opposed.

 

I'm not saying he's the strongest Lucha candidate or anything close to that. I don't know enough. But he does strike me as someone that is worth debating the merits of. Among the people I know online who are either Lucha experts or have watched a lot of Lucha, he is routinely regarded as one of the better workers from Mexico over the course of the last thirty years. He was a main event star of some note for a while. I'd be curious to see someone more knowledgeable compare him to guys like Atlantis, Villano III, Panther, et. I don't know that he would stack up favorably to any of them, but on cursory review - based on what I know - he doesn't seem to be way below them. I'm a pretty massive LA Park fan and if you are someone who puts a lot of stock in how they did outside of Mexico, he was the bigger star in the States, but I have a hard time believing he's a demonstrably better candidate than Dandy.

 

With Blackwell I know it's a project and convincing Dave to put him on the ballot is highly unlikely. There are other guys I've discussed as potential candidates that fall in that category. They are projects and require work convincing Dave, other voters and fans that they should even be in the discussion, let alone in the Hall. A guy like Dandy, feels like he is closer to a Jimmy Hart or Ken Patera type where there are clear reasons why they merit inclusion on a ballot and serious evaluation as candidates. They SHOULD be studied and analyzed more, but that level of work really shouldn't be required to get them on the ballot.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think Dandy's case as a draw is particularly strong. He may have headlined a couple of well drawing shows, but you'd have to look at the period after Paco sided with Herrera to see whether Dandy really drew without Pena. The 1992 Anniversary Show, for example, where they ran a Satanico/Dandy hair match for the third year running was seen as a failure at the gate though it may not have been Dandy's fault.

[Dylan Waco]

The problem with Satanico/Dandy is that they ran it into the ground. By all accounts it was a feud that did well at first but was very over exposed. Sims said it did over 17/18k several times before that point.

 

Again, I don't know a ton about this stuff. But I don't think Dandy gets in because he was this great forgotten draw. On the other hand I don't think he is a NEGATIVE as a draw. He appears to have been a stronger draw/bigger star than a lot other people who got in on work with limited drawing power used to give them artificial weight (I'm thinking Michaels, Hase, to a lesser extent Benoit). Dandy seems like a sort of "mixed bag" type draw based on what I know, with more positives I've heard about than negatives.

 

I almost hesitate to throw this out for discussion, but I suspect you could probably make a Dandy comp to someone like an Akira Hokuto and I don't know that it would come out unfavorably to him at all (cue OJ and possibly others telling me Hokuto is the wrong Joshi comp in 3...2...).

[jdw]

The Matsunagas will get a vote when they're on the ballot next year.

Did Meltzer confirm that they will be?

 

Yes, though I'll be safe and bring it up again next June.

[jdw]

Yeah I know Sims is opposed to him, but he doesn't strike me as viscerally opposed.

I wonder if the Dandy set would interest him and open him up to think about more than just Dandy's "peak". I don't know how much Steve watches anymore, and if like some folks watching old school lucha would appeal to him as much as more modern stuff. Really don't have a feel for his taste in work styles... though he is complimentary of Atlantis being one of the last great "NWA style" workers i.e. working technical title match style in Mexico.

[Dylan Waco]

That's a good question. I watched the Dandy comp from beginning to end almost totally ignorant on the man as a worker. What I found was one of the most versatile workers of all time, who has been in some of the best matches of all time, and appeared to be really fucking over in doing those things.

 

To be fair he spoke fairly highly of Dandy as a worker already, though probably not as high as I would rate him. He also said he regarded him as a Dick Murdoch type, i.e. the "cutoff" guy for Lucha candidates. You get the feeling that he could probably be convinced, but I'm sure the argument would be that there are other Luchadores currently on the ballot who would have to go in first.

 

If I thought Dandy was anything like a Barry Windham type (and everyone who has been around the block knows I'm about as high as you can be on Barry) I wouldn't really back him as a candidate. But I don't get any sense that he is a Barry Windham type.

[ohtani's jacket]

The problem with Satanico/Dandy is that they ran it into the ground. By all accounts it was a feud that did well at first but was very over exposed. Sims said it did over 17/18k several times before that point.

 

Again, I don't know a ton about this stuff. But I don't think Dandy gets in because he was this great forgotten draw. On the other hand I don't think he is a NEGATIVE as a draw. He appears to have been a stronger draw/bigger star than a lot other people who got in on work with limited drawing power used to give them artificial weight (I'm thinking Michaels, Hase, to a lesser extent Benoit). Dandy seems like a sort of "mixed bag" type draw based on what I know, with more positives I've heard about than negatives.

 

I almost hesitate to throw this out for discussion, but I suspect you could probably make a Dandy comp to someone like an Akira Hokuto and I don't know that it would come out unfavorably to him at all (cue OJ and possibly others telling me Hokuto is the wrong Joshi comp in 3...2...).

As far as I'm aware, Dandy had strong drawing periods such as other Herrera favourites such as Atlantis and Satanico, but wasn't a week-to-week draw like Konnan. My argument against Dandy would be similar to Jim Breaks in that we know that they're both all-time great performers within their countries and perhaps more successful than not as draws, but there's so many other guys from both countries that should go in before them that it opens up a whole can of worms over how poorly Mexico and now Europe are handled. Historically, I think there are a bunch of earlier figures that need to go in before you get to Dandy. I don't know who the Joshi comp to Dandy is, but I don't know that I'd vote for him before Karloff Lagarde, Huracan Ramirez, Dr. Wagner Sr. and Villano III for workers who are already on the ballot.

 

Sims seems to follow the current product judging by the podcasts I've listened to.

[Dylan Waco]

Yeah that's pretty much what I figured a lot of Lucha fans would say in general regarding Dandy. I still agree with John that he should definitely be on the ballot, but I can't argue that he should get in before Wagner Sr or Ramirez for example.

[Dylan Waco]

Just looked and Dandy has never been on the ballot. Fuerza has been on twice and fallen off.

[Loss]

It's fitting that Fuerza tried to get on the ballot and fell off ... twice. I hope he offered an insincere handshake the second time.

[Phil Schneider]

It's fitting that Fuerza tried to get on the ballot and fell off ... twice. I hope he offered an insincere handshake the second time.

That is a really great joke. Possibly the best Fuerza Guerrera joke I have ever heard

[KrisZ]

I would vote for Dandy because he was the total package as a worker as he could do everything you wanted him to at a high level. He could fly, he could wrestle, he could be a chickenshit, he could be a tough guy, he could be a tecnico, and his psychology was as sound as anyone in that era. Sure he was never the main guy for EMLL but you could argue that he was the best worker in the promotion which at that time was filled with a lot of great workers.

[FLIK]

Next week Bryan Alvarez says he's doing a special audio show just to debate Big Daddy. So can't wait for this

I have absolutely no interest in listening to Bryan talk about this. I hope he was joking because there is a good debate to be had there and it should be had. I want to hear someone duke it out on the Euro candidates who has the knowledge to make real cases for or against these guys.

 

Haven't listened yet (will tomorrow) but it's up now

 

Figure Four Daily with Bryan Alvarez and Karl Stern returns today with our latest history podcast, this time debating whether or not BIG DADDY SHIRLEY CRABTREE belongs in the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame. A crash course in British boom period wrestling history, plus discussion of the death of WCW, forgotten historical figures, and more. A fun show as always so check it out~!

[FLIK]

The Matsunagas will get a vote when they're on the ballot next year.

Did Meltzer confirm that they will be?

 

Yes, though I'll be safe and bring it up again next June.

 

Glad to hear it. Did he specify which members of the family it would be? Takashi was the main one by all acounts but the other 3 still played big roles. Melter's BIO on Takashi from a couple years ago makes a great case for his & the rest of the family's inclusion & gives a really good shortened version of the history of AJW.

 

If you exstend things out the Matsunaga's sister was also a wrestler as was Takashi's wife plus a bunch of their kids ended up working for the company as ring anouncers/refs/etc.. too not that any of them should be included and i'm assuming won't be.

[jdw]

Dave was going to check. My general thought would be to do it as "The Matsunaga Family" and to the bio of the company/family. In a sense it's like the Birds. We could argue that Hayes had a massive role in getting the Birds over as the "talker" of the group that the fans wanted to see get his ass kicked... and Hayes was a hell of a talker/heat magnate. But Terry worked his ass off, and Buddy was very solid. Collectively they made the team work, and trying to split it into % of credit is a waste. The Matsunagas are likely in the same boat.

 

John

[rovert]

FLIK ignore any and all specfics on Karl and Bryan's podcast on Big Daddy. I know there is learning curve and a cultural understanding need to Daddy's candidacy. But they acted like the UK was this tiny island and than Daddy was on par with Muhammad Ali popularity wise!

 

Meltzer did half an hour on Daddy this morning with Bryan apparently which I haven't listened to.

[ohtani's jacket]

What the fuck would Bryan Alvarez know about Big Daddy? They should get John Lister or someone on the show.

[sek69]

FLIK ignore any and all specfics on Karl and Bryan's podcast on Big Daddy. I know there is learning curve and a cultural understanding need to Daddy's candidacy. But they acted like the UK was this tiny island and than Daddy was on par with Muhammad Ali popularity wise!

 

Meltzer did half an hour on Daddy this morning with Bryan apparently which I haven't listened to.

 

Dave absolutely buried him, saying there's no proof he had any impact on viewership and he wouldn't vote for him. Having said that, he said he wouldn't vote for anyone in the UK due to not having a lot of knowledge on the territory.

 

Anyone hoping for a Dave Bump will be sorely disappointed.

[Dylan Waco]

I think anyone who has followed things closely knows Dave isn't going to give any of the European guys a bump. I don't even think they would be on the ballot if it weren't for outside pressure.

[NintendoLogic]

Dave going off on Big Daddy:

 

They didn't run Wembley often because they didn't need to is the silliest thing you've said.

 

They didn't run Wembley often because they didn't have people over enough to run it regularly and turn a profit on the shows. If they did, they would. You run big buildings because you sell out smaller buildings and are turning away so many people that it becomes more profitable to run bigger buildings.

 

What is more profitable? One show drawing 10,000 people every week or ten shows drawing 400? It was a territory that ran a ton of shows, but it was not on a worldwide basis ever considered a major territory during those years.

 

Also, the argument he didn't narrow the audience may be one used against those in the U.K. who lived there and claimed he did. I don't know if it's true or it isn't. I only know what I read in the media in the 70s and 80s and it was always written about how Big Daddy appealed to kids and those very old and had hurt the popularity of wrestling in the country. When he was on top people were always talking about him slowly killing the business. That could be complete b.s. I didn't live there. But it was something said all the time. I won't vote for European candidates for that reason.

 

What I do know is "he didn't narrow the audience" is not a great defense for someone you are championing for the Hall of Fame.

 

He didn't suck that bad. He didn't really kill the business. Great. Why does he belong in the Hall of Fame? Didn't really kill the business kind of opens the doors to a ton of guys who didn't really kill the business.

 

Okay, give me something positive. He was really famous doesn't cut it. There's a specific criteria and "really famous" isn't listed anywhere.

 

Saying the promotion had this method that worked may be great if it was a thriving promotion. It wasn't. The top guys wanted to leave. Why would the biggest names on the U.K. scene want to come to Calgary to make $300 a week if their own business was thriving so great? It survived, but in those days, a wrestling company surviving isn't necessarily that impressive. Thriving? Nobody with a big name wanted to go there. Everyone with ability who was there wanted to leave. This wasn't the 50s where Lou Thesz and Dara Singh who were the biggest stars in their parts of the world came to England to wrestle, so wrestling must have been huge. Thesz gave up the NWA title, Dara was a sports legend in India, and they CAME to England. In Big Daddy's day, did Inoki, Baba, Ric Flair, The Funks, Andre, Brody, etc. come to England to get on the Big Daddy gravy train? So the idea that he made it bigger than it was, that's pure bunk. It was bigger in the late 70s than the mid-70s, but nowhere close to the late 50s or early 60s.

 

*Was he a great draw. Give me evidence. Nobody has to date. Lots of theoreticals. To me, to get in as a draw, you have to actually have a track record of regularly drawing documented big crowds for years, preferably in different environments as opposed to being the promoter's brother and never being successful anywhere else. For this one guy there is this change the goal posts with "well, nobody drew so therefore you can't hold that against him." If he was an international star, great worker, sure, don't hold it against him that in his country wrestling wasn't drawing big crowds. When his only claim to fame is a draw but he didn't draw big crowds in cities with huge population (London was one of the largest cities in the world at the time), how do you vote him in as a draw? When his only qualification is drawing and there is no evidence he moved business on a regular basis to any degree for a long period of time, then it's not enough. Even British historians who praise Daddy concede he only really drew for a few years of his run. Name one candidate in, only because of his drawing, because of a few years and who worked a territory where they virtually never ran a major arena and thus they never actually drew large crowds. If there is a precedent, name the guy.

 

*Was he a great worker. Nobody is arguing he was.

 

*Did he have historical significance in a positive manner. At best debatable. The only argument for him is this. Perhaps it's a real argument. Again, at best debatable given that those who worked there don't see it, those who left there don't see it, those who wrote about it during his prime didn't see it when it was happening right before their eyes.

 

At the end of the day, I keep coming back to these things. When Daddy was alive, he was given no respect in wrestling. Everything anyone said was negative. Couldn't work. Killing the business. Whether true or not, that is how it was categorized when he was alive and at the peak of his fame. Even if killing the business is unfair, that doesn't make him a Hall of Fame candidate. It just means he was unfairly blamed for a declining business. Nobody was saying he was a record breaking draw who was turning around the business in his heyday. Almost everyone with talent wanted to leave the promotion. The promotion got weaker with him on top, not stronger, lost its TV exclusivity and later lost its TV, essentially crippling the local scene. In elections, the majority of people from the U.K. don't vote for him (some do, most don't) and they lived there. If he's that great of a candidate, why is that the case? Again, when I was in the U.K. and this discussion came up, the reaction was that it was a joke to even consider him. Not a debate of whether he should be in. If that is the case among people who grew up with him, how does that make him a candidate to actually get in?

 

Again, I don't care. But give me evidence he should be in. Not, well, he didn't suck so bad, or you can't judge him based on standards everyone else is judged on because the U.K. didn't draw big crowds. What about after he was gone. Did the U.K. still not draw big crowds? What about before he was around? Why did at least some of the top talent go to England then?

 

Hopefully the guy who brought up The Sheik already understands the difference. Sheik was provably one of the greatest draws in wrestling for years although he did end up killing his territory at the end. He was in demand everywhere. He was making so much money that instead of bringing him in for tours of Japan, they'd bring him in for 2-3 days because they couldn't afford him for tours and they paid better than anywhere else. Look at his record in Toronto. Every two weeks, 10,000 to 17,000 fans at Maple Leaf Garden on Sunday afternoons for years. He was on top because he owned the territory and almost never lost in Detroit, but he was also in demand in the rest of the world and drew in places he didn't own and was wanted everywhere. A small money territory like Amarillo would fly the guy in for a few days and pay him a a premium rate because he'd make that much difference in business. That's a Hall of Fame draw. To me, when it comes to guys who aren't great workers, the key is were they "in demand" guys. Did every or at least many promoters want them? Did the big money places in the world bring them in?

The boom period was the late 50s and early 60s. Stars actually went to England, and big stars. The biggest TV ratings documented were drawn by the McManus vs. Pallo feud. That's a great argument for McManus and Pallo.

 

Again, if he's such a slam dunk, how come your own historians and wrestlers don't vote him in. How come in that U.K. wrestling Hall of Fame that the old wrestlers have, Daddy isn't in. Shouldn't he be the first guy in their own Hall of Fame if he was a Hall of Famer?

 

The idea that wrestlers wouldn't go to the U.K. because they'd have to put Daddy over is ridiculous. Everyone who was a big star went to Japan and gladly put Baba over. Why? Because it was a place they could earn money. Almost nobody if the money was there would turn down going to England and putting Daddy over. The money wasn't there. You're talking like they had this giant thriving business and this great promotional model. If they did, why did the big names not go there? Why did nobody make money? Why did Robinson, who was from England and maybe the best worker in the world, leave and never look back? Robinson even worked territories like Memphis, but he never worked for the Crabtrees during this supposed heyday and boom period? Haystacks in that supposed boom period left for Stampede Wrestling to make $350 a week. So did Nagasaki. Dynamite left and never came back. Davey Boy couldn't wait to leave. How "thriving" was the business really?

 

Mexico City during its hottest period had 25-30 shows in the city every single day. That didn't stop them from running and drawing 10,000 plus every Friday and many Sundays at Arena Mexico, and UWA drawing 10,000 twice a week in Naucalpan.

 

Jeez, they BUILT THEIR OWN ARENAS in the major cities because wrestling was so popular and outgrowing small buildings. No, they booked 400 seat halls because it was this great business model. If their business model was so great, given they had TV that so many people were watching, why did they almost never draw big crowds in cities with huge populations? Why was the reputation of U.K. wrestling that they had all kinds of great wrestlers, but the business there was the shits? In Mexico, they used bullrings, baseball fields and soccer stadiums for big shows? Did soccer stadiums not exist in the U.K?

[ohtani's jacket]

I thought Dave didn't have a whole lot of knowledge about the territory? I don't see Big Daddy as a Hall of Famer but he sure has a lot to say about a territory he doesn't know much about.