What Would It Take To Form a True No. 2 Company To Rival WWE

[Bob Morris]

Having dragged the discussion about TNA possibly being the worst wrestling promotion ever to another board, somebody inquired if the wrestling world would be better off without TNA, and if it folded, could somebody step up to fill the void for an alternative to WWE?

 

I think we all know TNA is only able to be a true alternative for those who are considered the top guys in that company, whereas anyone lower on the card gets very little and would be better off under a WWE developmental deal, but I do believe when the person who posed those questions did so, he was thinking more about whether or not somebody could rise up to be a true No. 2 promotion that could provide a place other than WWE for wrestlers to head to, make a reasonable salary and give fans an alternative to watch each week.

 

Now, granted, the chances of this happening are extremely slim in today's environment, but I figured it might be worth some discussion.

 

Here's what I wrote about what it would take for such a promotion to become reality....

 

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As far as a second company goes, regardless of what it may be, given the current environment, you have to have the following elements in place for whoever the promoter may be:

 

1. He has to have a vision in place for what he wants the promotion to be like and the audience he wants to cater to -- and to compete with WWE, he needs to be able to attract fans on a broad scale, not a narrow one.

 

2. He needs to have patience for his vision to become reality and not expect a quick fix.

 

3. He needs to understand he's not going to get an immediate return on the money he invests and he's going to have to take some chances with the money he spends. That doesn't mean he can spend money foolishly, but he will have to put some money with the idea that he may lose money at first before he starts making a profit.

 

4. He needs to know how to sell his vision to a company that owns a cable network -- because without cable, he's not going to make any progress. Syndication won't work because he's not guaranteed to reach as large of an audience as he would with cable. More importantly, he needs to convince such a network that the promotion doesn't need every big name available to get attention.

 

5. He needs to know who to have on staff in terms of production, booking and laying out matches -- and he can't just rely on everybody who has done it before. He needs to know enough about those who haven't had a chance to put their ideas forth on a larger scale, yet haven't been around in the business for so long that they are set in their ways and won't really change.

 

6. Most of all, he needs to know which wrestler he should build his company around. That wrestler has to be somebody who understands at least the basics of putting a match together, how to connect with the crowd, how to get his opponents over as much as he gets himself over, and that he can be the guy who will relate to the audience the promoter wants to target. And that wrestler has to be entering the prime of his career -- anyone who is too inexperienced or past his prime won't cut it. The promoter also needs to know what wrestlers are available that can play complementary roles or provide potential challenges for the top guy.

 

Now, all of this is easier said than done. There are some issues this promoter is going to have to confront.

 

Regarding money: He has to either have it himself or find those who are willing to put it up and show as much as patience as he needs to show.

 

Regarding TV networks: He needs to do a really good sell job as most cable networks aren't interested in a pro wrestling product these days, unless they get smitten by any "big names" associated with it.

 

Regarding talent: He's likely going to have to find a WWE midcard act who shows potential to become a main eventer but isn't getting that recognition -- and chances are, it's going to be somebody who WWE willingly cuts ties with, which means a salvage job will have to be done, or somebody whose contract is up for renewal and he is able to lure the guy out with money and promises, to the point that midcarder is willing to take the chance on the new promotion.

 

Regarding patience: That's something that is in short supply these days, as too many folks these days are seeking instant results, not results that develop over the long term.

 

So... while the chance is there that somebody could step forward and fill the void left by TNA if it were to fold, the chances of it being a formidable rival to WWE are extremely slim. You would have to have the circumstances be nearly perfect, or otherwise, it would be like ROH at best -- able to do a decent job catering to a small segment of fans, but destined to remain on a small scale no matter what else you try.

 

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For the record, I don't think we are ever going to see a pro wrestling company emerge that can truly rival the WWE. But that's not to say it will never happen -- but as I wrote, circumstances would have to be nearly perfect for that to happen.

 

But it still may be worth discussion, if others feel differently.

[JazeUSA]

1- A LOT of money

2- Someone with wrestling smarts & knowledge but also a legit business guy to run it

3- A national tv deal

4-Atleast 4 big name superstars

5-Several workers with good looks & solid ring work to carry the load in the ring

6-More MONEYYY

7-Something that catches the viewers eyes & makes them not flip the channel (the it factor)

8-A great announcer to help get the show & workers over huge!

9-Main stream media backing

10-ONLY charge $19.95 for there ppv's!

 

these things would all be hell of a start, I think there's a few people out there who could finance it & make it happen, Ted Turner could do it again, Donald Trump could do it, a few others come to mind as well. I'm not saying either of these 2 are interested but they would be the kind of big money backer a company would need to catch up & pass WWE

[Death From Above]

Wrestling is not a sport (I'm saying this to avoid getting sucked into THAT Meltzer point, again), but in some ways it has to be promoted more like one than it does like a regular TV show. It's very difficult for me to imagine someone just plunking down some cash and founding a real competitor because wrestling fans are generally fairly loyal to their company of choice. WCW didn't just spring up one day, it had a loyal, and in many ways fanatical anti-WWF fanbase that was established generations-deep. There's no way to just replicate that kind of support using raw resources, unless you REALLY have a lot of cash. I mean... maybe if you could somehow talk The Rock into being your ace, and if you also stole a top current WWE star (well, if there were any). Similar to how if you buy an expansion team in sports but plunk it in the wrong market, the only way to draw is to win a title. Otherwise you end up with the Atlanta Thrashers.

 

Honestly the lack of any meaningful independents in America these days suggests to me that indeed Vince has won. He hasn't done nearly what I would have liked to see with that position, but none the less. I honestly don't see a challenger coming any time in the next decade.

 

I can see companies succeeding on a level where they are clearly the minor leagues. In another universe with TNA's level of recources and overall talent level, there could be a perfectly viable B-federation there.

 

There's nothing wrong with a good AAA baseball game.

 

That's probably a more viable goal, for my money. Trying to go after Vince shouldn't even be a question until after you have yourself awfully well established.

 

Only other option I see is if, for some unforseen reason, a company were to totally take off in Europe outside of Vince's main market. Japanese wrestling was hot within its own borders but I think it had certain cultural limitations to a lot of American fans. If a company sprung up in England? Maybe they'd have a chance. They wouldn't have quite the direct head to head heat but they'd also not have to fight the language barrier. Again, that's a big longshot, but I can at least conceive of it.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think it's impossible, but I do think it improbable in the short run.

 

What I think is more likely to happen is that Vince dies and the fallout for control of the WWE results in multiple groups going there own way ala the collapse of AJPW post-Baba. I also think it is entirely possible that high gas prices and the expansion of webcasting could see a return to territorial wrestling, albeit on a much less extensive scale.

 

Having said that I'll play along.

 

Obviously the person/s in question would need a lot of money and tv exposure. I actually think getting decent television exposure will become increasingly irrelevant as the net continues to explode as a vehicle for viewing content. But in the short run to be treated seriously it is still a necessity.

 

The promotion would have to go to great pains to not be seen as a replica and/or "on the cheap" version of the WWE. This means it would be most effective if it were to advance certain niche concepts OR if it were to feature talent totally independent of the WWE machine and/or in a totally different fashion than WWE would feature them.

 

Delusions of grandeur would have to be kept at a minimum. That means run the 6k building and try and sell them out, instead of trying to run the 17k buildings and leave them half empty. Don't try and do a ppv a month every month just to do it unless the revenue stream was viable.

 

Create a caste system with your wrestlers and make it clear to the audience. Nothing has hurt TNA more than that as the stream of guys rotating up and down the card is insane. It is something the WWE has become guilty of as well over recent years. Wrestling needs a few stars, some upper mid carders, some solid hands and some JTTS. Bring back managers to get over talented performers with good looks that can't talk, rather than trying to force them to speak pre-fab lines.

 

Booking shoot be rotated via committee but not done by committee. Perhaps six months on, six months off with a three man team each having (near) total control during that time period. In the tv age writers probably have to exist but should be there to lay out and format the shows, not create scripts for the wrestlers to recite verbatim.

 

The promotion should not have an abundance of titles. The amount of tv and size of the roster make this a bit flexible, but you should not have shows with six or seven title matches, because there shouldn't be that many titles.

 

The promotion should work from it's central hub, find the closest markets of some strength and use those as vehicles to expand. Don't run shows in big towns just to run them. You can't be a national promotion without a reliable base.

 

I'm forgetting a lot of other shit and to be honest this largely disinterest me mainly because I see it as so unlikely. I honestly think it is more likely that we will see semi-successful regional promotions again in the next twenty years.

[cm funk]

big money and star power

 

And it isn't going to happen because nobody cares enough to waste a shitload of money trying to beat the WWE at their own game. Seriously, it would be a massive undertaking requiring hundreds of millions of dollars to try and start from the ground up and take the crown of wrestling supremacy, and there is nobody out there who wants it.

 

When the WWE begins to die and splinter, as it inevitably will, that's when we will start seeing competition. But it isn't going to happen any time soon.

[rzombie1988]

I don't want to do a big long post, but you need two things more than anything else: Reliable money and a reilable tv slot on a non-digital cable network. You can get everything else from those two things.

 

However, wrestling right now is at the lowest it's ever been. I don't even think more people would watch it if it was the greatest period ever. If I were to try and convince someone to watch current wrestling right now, I don't know if I could even think of anything to say. Right now, the world does not need wrestling and there's a heck of alot of other things to watch in the even more limited free time that people have.

[FLIK]

Money & National TV are the 2 base things of course but shit, TNA has those.

 

The missing ingrediants are advertising and marketing.

 

With TNA, to this day only a small % of the overall wrestling audiance knows they exist and to those that do it doesn't come across like a big deal.

 

The quality of the wrestling doesn't matter so much and who you push isn't that important either. Older stars, big names, indy guys, you could do it with any of them. The key is you HAVE to market them in such a way that they & your overall promotion feels important. The #1 thing i've learned over the past few years world wide is that wrestling fans will still very much show up for the big special shows if they're marketed right but if you treat your wrestlers or shows as average run of the mill things then you'll draw acordingly.

[RodTrongard'sHair]

I agree deep pockets and patience are going to be important, but I also think you would need to do a few other things, a couple which might seem counter-intuitive, but might work:

 

A) Sign as few ex-WWE guys as possible. This is a mistake TNA and other promotions have made. You need to create you own image and not come off as WWE-lite. Put an emphasis on home-grown talent or perhaps even try to lure in some UFC/MMA guys who can't go in that sport anymore, but might be able to do pro wrestling at a higher work-rate

 

In booking, do what the WWE isn't doing. If you look back, that is what helped get WCW and ECW moving.

 

C) Aim at becoming a regional success at first, don't do national TV, how many times has that failed, and don't worry about ppv's. Aim to be the next JCP or Mid-South and don't worry about taking on the WWE at first.

 

D) Ditto on ppv's. Build towards major house shows the only way which you are going to see live is by being there.

 

E) Have the competitive streak that Vince and the old territory promoters had. Don't be afraid to take out smaller indys or other promotions to get yourself ahead. This is a tough business and you have to be willing to win. Otherwise you are just another of 789 indys.

[Dooley]

Mark Cuban.

[Jingus]

A) Sign as few ex-WWE guys as possible. This is a mistake TNA and other promotions have made. You need to create you own image and not come off as WWE-lite. Put an emphasis on home-grown talent or perhaps even try to lure in some UFC/MMA guys who can't go in that sport anymore, but might be able to do pro wrestling at a higher work-rate

 

In booking, do what the WWE isn't doing. If you look back, that is what helped get WCW and ECW moving.

 

C) Aim at becoming a regional success at first, don't do national TV, how many times has that failed, and don't worry about ppv's. Aim to be the next JCP or Mid-South and don't worry about taking on the WWE at first.

 

D) Ditto on ppv's. Build towards major house shows the only way which you are going to see live is by being there.

 

E) Have the competitive streak that Vince and the old territory promoters had. Don't be afraid to take out smaller indys or other promotions to get yourself ahead. This is a tough business and you have to be willing to win. Otherwise you are just another of 789 indys.

Hasn't ROH done pretty much all of these at some point?

[blueminister]

ROH fails at a fundamental level because they're trying to peddle a brand based on incestuous indie wrestling Great Match Theory that there is no demand for. I can't actually think of a time in ROH's existence when this hasn't been true.

[jdw]

I'll add one more to the things that have been mentioned:

 

Avoid Con Men and Being Conned

 

The business is full of people who just want to suck on the tit. A lot of things doomed TNA, but that's high on the list: people want to suck money out of it. WCW had a strong streak of it as well. Kip Frey was a nice guy, but were Dusty and others taking advantage? We've seen promotion after promotion where the booker gets the Boss/Money Mark on TV / on the Shows to make him feel important... which in turn makes him easier to suck money out of.

 

You could drop the best booker in the world into TNA, but if Jeffy or or Kurt or Hogan has Dixie's ear, you're fucked.

 

It's a fine line between (i) keeping everyone driven and hunger while properly rewards, and (ii) lazy fucks sucking money out of you doing dick.

 

You could set up everything else, but if underneath it you're being conned by your Business Guy and/or your Booker and/or Top Stars.... you're going to end up losing.

 

In turn, if you are the Business Guy or Booker, but your Money Mark turns out to be a gullible mark, you run the massive risk of a Hogan or Triple H cutting you the hell out by getting close to the Money Mark, taking credit or stabbing you in the back.

[Bix]

Mark Cuban.

Who it appears isn't interested in doing this in spite of being a huge fan to the point that he followed Puppet around at a Bloody Midgets show to learn more about the business.

[FLIK]

We've seen promotion after promotion where the booker gets the Boss/Money Mark on TV / on the Shows to make him feel important... which in turn makes him easier to suck money out of.

Thinking about this, it sure has been a long time since there was a major promotion that was actually capable of funding itself besides WWE. WCW, TNA, ROH, even a lot of the major ones outside of the US like New Japan & CMLL are all pretty much proped up based on money the owners made/make from non wrestling ventures.

[Bix]

Isn't CMLL completely self-sufficient based owning their main arenas? Last I heard, it's pretty much impossible for them to lose money on any of the shows they promote themselves, plus they make money on booking fees and I presume TV rights as well.

[FLIK]

Isn't CMLL completely self-sufficient based owning their main arenas? Last I heard, it's pretty much impossible for them to lose money on any of the shows they promote themselves, plus they make money on booking fees and I presume TV rights as well.

That's all true but on top of that the family's mainly rich from other outside ventures (Dr Lucha's mentioned it a bunch on his F4W shows but i'm blanking on what they are atm) to the point whear it doesn't matter much to their pocket books either way how well CMLL does which is more my overall point. Most major companies now aren't run/owned by ppl who NEED them to do well financially.

[JerryvonKramer]

1. What are the dead towns or even dead territories that used to support big promotions?

 

How often do the WWE run the old AWA or Mid-South stomping grounds? How often do they run shows on the West Coast?

 

Need to establish a core powerbase somewhere outside of the tri-state area and preferrably not in Tennessee.

 

2. Can you get on free-to-air national TV? For example, BBC, ITV or Channel 4 or even Channel 5 in the UK. Any channel that ANYONE can get. Yes, you might be losing out on cable revenue, but that's ok if you can get a national TV slot.

 

3. Celebrity endorsements. How did Vince get wrestlemania off the ground? How did he launch the boom era?

 

You need to get buy-in for some big names. Aim for Kanye West, Beyonce, fucking Christian Bale, whoever the top stars are ... maybe if you can get support from one or two, more and more will get involved as it comes to be seen as fashionable.

 

4. Get top talent on the roster -- this could even be the sort of guys TNA have currently, but it's about marketing them and positioning them more effectively. Don't use Hogan and Flair as in-ring talents either. No one over the age of 50 is allow in the ring! Use them as managers, mouthpieces, presidents etc. But you also need guys who the current wrestling community will buy into. CM Punk on a big money contract would be ideal.

 

5. Be aggressive in running towns the WWE run and use every trick in the book to boost gates: so that means getting local sports stars and whatnot involved. If there's a wrestling heritage there, make sure you give the old home-town star a match too. If you look at WWF's strategy in the 80s, they'd poach top talent from other territories and then run stars in their local markets to get buy-in from the home crowd.

 

Example: before DiBiase debuted on tv as Million Dollar Man, they ran JYD vs. DiBiase in Texas many many times during the summer of 1987. Then even after DiBiase had debuted, he did shows primarily across old Watts country working mainly with JYD.

 

This makes sense. Those guys were over with fans in Texas and Oklaholma, so they would draw in towns in those states. He did a similar thing with Dino Bravo in Montreal.

 

In 2012, this is harder to pull off, but it might mean tracking down Sandman, Tommy Dreamer and Mikey Shipwreck and doing Philly with those guys, or finding Shelton Benjamin and running the Carolinas with him, with Steamboat or Flair in his corner and making TV appearances with him in the run up to those shows.

 

It might take a long time, but you HAVE TO GROW LOCAL SUPPORT. You can't do a TNA and think that TV alone is going to do it for you. You have to go back to wrestling 101 and run towns and develop local markets.

 

It's one of the things Vince is seldom credited for -- not only did he break into long established territories, over the 80s he REALLY developed a local following for his house shows across the country. When I was going through all the WWF and WCW house shows a few nights ago, what really stood out to me is how WWF could draw 10,000 one night in Washington state and then two weeks later 10,000 in LA and then 10,000 in Texas. The story that DOESN'T tell is how often he'd been running those local markets for the past 5 or 6 years.

 

That's what TNA haven't done and what, for what I can see, WCW never did. TV is a big deal, sure, but there's no substitute for wrestling fundamentals.

[Negro Suave]

Find New stars and Make them. Forget about the WWE all together. Don't mention WWE or even look at former WWE superstars until your stars are standing on their own.

 

Run house shows in every small venue you can. Avoid venues that have connotations IE the ECW arena or the Elks Lodge. The more you can seperate from it the better. Try and find a good deal on a 'home' building and work out from there.

 

Engage the local indy wrestling audience by putting over acts on the undercard. This will help ensure that your house shows will be packed to the rafters, local wrestlers wil bring out family. Put over local talent in their hometown, use that to build more superstars.

 

Fully embrace social media but in a savvy way. Wrestlers should all have twitter accounts at the very least. It is easier to manage than fan mail and seems more personal even if it is a staffer ghost writing it. There should be a podcast, there should be a webshow, there should be blogs and you should post clipped matches and teaser trailers.

 

Engage celebrities. But DON'T make them part of the show. They should be seen as fans because if they are percieved as fans then people see this as something cool to watch as opposed to someone cashing a paycheck.

 

Don't use a pay per view every month format. I would say 4 a year max. Gives you four segments of the year to program for.

 

After this is all in place start looking for sponsors and then look at getting a television show, it needs to be a national deal it should not go head to head with anything that your demographic likes or it should lead right up to something. Sunday evenings before Sunday Night football is to me a prime spot.

 

Invest in the wrestlers, you get more out of people who are invested in the company, that means giving them acess to healthcare. Make them employees give them access to the things that even some wage slaves can get access to. Hire sports and athletics trainers to travel and help train.

 

Once the recognition starts up, you then acknowledge the competition and undercut them. Be another option, but don't try to be the only option, the illusion of choice makes you stronger.

[Mr Wrestling X]

I've noticed that many posters have mentioned money as a big factor, and yes it is, because with having a generous financial backer makes it so much easier to get TV deals, the best advertising opportunities and not to mention access to premium resources and top talent. However, look at Vince McMahon, he essentially risked everything he had on one big event and built his product off the success of that. Sure, the WWF was already an established promotion which had all the things necessary to be run as a wrestling promotion, but McMahon decided to that he needed to make his company number one and following an aggressive national expansion, the final thing left to do was risk all his business and personal assets on one big event. The real turning point for McMahon was the success of WWF's foray into the PPV market along with it's merchandise sales from the success of WWF personalities like Hulk Hogan.

 

Perhaps this kind of risk taking is something that is required in order for a wrestling company to stand a chance at rivaling WWE? We saw TNA take a big risk in 2010 by choosing to put out Impact live on Monday nights, however this was a colossal failure, we've also seen some of the smaller promotions like ROH taking risks by deciding to expand into the TV market (which is at so-so levels currently).

 

I believe there is a possibility that some WWE employees would jump ship to a company that offered them better benefits such as:

 

- A company integrated insurance policy

- Contracted holiday allowance

- The option to join a union

- A retirement plan for long term employees

[Jingus]

How much did Vince actually risk on the first Wrestlemania? What was the difference between that and all the other big MSG shows at the time, aside from the closed-circuit (and how much money could that really bring in, and how did it work?) and the hype? We always hear this "if Wrestlemania had failed, the WWF would've died" meme, but I don't know if it's even close to true or if it's just part of the WWE's revisionist history.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've always heard people say he had every last cent in there and then some.

[Mr Wrestling X]

How much did Vince actually risk on the first Wrestlemania? What was the difference between that and all the other big MSG shows at the time, aside from the closed-circuit (and how much money could that really bring in, and how did it work?) and the hype? We always hear this "if Wrestlemania had failed, the WWF would've died" meme, but I don't know if it's even close to true or if it's just part of the WWE's revisionist history.

I don't think the WWF would have "died", but McMahon's dreams of international expansion would be over or greatly set back at the very least. The big money differences between Wrestlemania I and the MSG shows were things like all the celebrity involvement, the insane amount of advertising and the sheer amount of talent used at the event. If Wrestlemania had failed, it's very possible that other promotions like the AWA and /JCP/WCW would have had enough breathing space to catch up, and perhaps even overtake the WWF.

[Jingus]

I've always heard people say he had every last cent in there and then some.

Yeah, that's the story that keeps getting passed around, but the more I think about it the more it sounds like a huge exaggeration. What was he spending so much money on? What were the costs of doing a closed-circuit broadcast? (Hell, what were ANY of the details of doing a closed-circuit broadcast? That was before my time, but everyone who talks about the first Mania today just seems to take for granted that everyone knows exactly how it worked.) I know that all those celebrity cameos must've cost a chunk of change, but surely not nearly enough to bankrupt the guy who already owned the largest wrestling company in the world. Seriously, what was different about this show? It was held at their usual home arena. It mostly starred the usual card of the WWF's regular wrestlers. Why was this supposedly such a risk?

[JerryvonKramer]

Well does anyone know how much he lost during the whole "Black Saturday" debacle in 1984? He bought GCW and it was a total disaster and he was forced to sell it at a loss. I know the sale to Crockett was $1 million, but how much did he pay the Briscos in the first place?

[Loss]

Interesting, sometimes-forgotten thing: In purchasing the TBS timeslot from Vince McMahon for $1 million, Jim Crockett ostensibly financed Wrestlemania.

 

Vince was right when he told Crockett, as legend goes, "You'll choke on that million."