Wrestling in Japan (Late 90s-Early 00s)

[Loss]

Is there a history lesson online someone could point me to that would help me make sense of everything with New Japan and PRIDE during this time? I'm referring to Sakuraba's ascension as the biggest pro wrestling star in the country (despite doing shoots), worked fights on early PRIDE shows, New Japan guys who were sacrificed, the impact on the style (Is this how Takayama became a star in 2002?) and so on. It's a topic I've never really paid much attention to, and it suddenly intrigues me.

 

Or if someone ambitious wanted to provide a (really detailed) summary here, that would be great.

 

Identifying the key moments from that time period that are key in telling the story would also be helpful, along with guys like Takada and Hashimoto who were pretty much killed off by these changes.

 

Full disclosure: I'm asking this because I'm curious, but also because it's an important story worth capturing on a yearbook, and I want to make sure the important points are hit.

 

Thanks!

[FLIK]

the impact on the style (Is this how Takayama became a star in 2002?) and so on.

Yup, didn't win a single fight either but he put up so much of a fight that he got over by losing. Next thing you know a few months after the famous Don Fyre fight he's GHC champ then half a year later he's IWGP champ and he's getting movie roles and all kinds of other shit and is pretty much made as a top guy.

[Loss]

So Takayama/Frye was a shoot? Wow, this is all very confusing.

[FLIK]

 

You couldn't tell???

[Loss]

I've never seen any of this stuff. I just didn't know anyone other than Takada or Hashimoto was involved in a shoot. I'm nearly completely clueless about this time period.

[FLIK]

New Japan guys who were sacrificed

Manabu Nakanishi did 1 or 2 and lost. Didn't have much of an effect on his career as he was allready a mid carder

 

Kendo Kashin did a few to mixed results. A few months after he beat one of the Gracies he got the IWGP Jr Title but he was allready a pushed guy in that division anyways.

 

Kaz Fujita quit wrestling for a while to go into MMA but he actually won a bunch of fights so when he got brought back to NJPW he got the IWGP title off Norton.

 

Tadao Yasuda by some miracle won a couple of his fights which is 110% what got him his push as a main eventer and the IWGP title from Fujita.

 

In the middle of the biggest push of his career, winning the G1, winning the IWGP off Yasuda, etc... Yuji Nagata pissed it all away when he fought Cro Cop while still IWGP champ and got embarasingly knocked out in 20 seconds.

 

Shinsuke Nakamura won a few MMA fights in his first year which got him his Super Rookie push and made into a main eventer winning the IWGP way WAY too early.

 

I think I may be missing some but those are the major examples I can think of of New Japan guys doing MMA. A few wrestlers from other companies got in on it too, I know Mammoth Sasaki did an MMA fight and lost, Alexander Otsuka & other Bat Bat guys did some, a bunch of Luchadors did some as well with the most notable being Dos Caras Jr/Alberto Del Rio who actually did pretty well at it. Joshi has a big history of mixing with MMA too going back to atleast the early 90's as AJW would reg have shoot kickboxing matches on their shows and even their own MMA title for a while, JWP using karate fighters for a bit, girls like Ito, Kandori & Hotta doing MMA, etc...

[FLIK]

I've never seen any of this stuff

Everyone, even if you hate MMA (which I largely do) needs to see Takayama vs Frye atleast once in their life.

[MikeCampbell]

Tadao Yasuda by some miracle won a couple of his fights which is 110% what got him his push as a main eventer and the IWGP title from Fujita.

Not quite. Fujita had to forfeit the IWGP Title due to injury. Yasuda's fluke win was what caused him to get the nod to win the tournament.

 

In the middle of the biggest push of his career, winning the G1, winning the IWGP off Yasuda, etc... Yuji Nagata pissed it all away when he fought Cro Cop while still IWGP champ and got embarrassingly knocked out in 20 seconds.

Again, not quite. Nagata wasn't IWGP Champion when Cro Cop KO'd him, although he was on the verge of it, I think he was supposed to beat Fujita on 1/4/02. Fujita got hurt and Nagata lost the 12/31 Cro Cop fight. In the end Akiyama defended the GHC against Nagata. Nagata won the IWGP from Yasuda the following April, because Yasuda was a disaster on pretty much all fronts. He wasn't any sort of discernible draw and the fans fucking DESPISED him.

[Loss]

So how did this all start? Who were the key players in pushing Japanese wrestling in this direction? Was it calculated or something more organic?

[MikeCampbell]

I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole Takayama deal. I know that NJPW brought him in to challenge Nagata on the strength of his PRIDE fights, so that Nagata could beat a "real fighter." It happened to coincide with Takayama becoming one of the best workers in Japan, but I don't specifically know if that's why they kept booking him and gave him the big push in the G1 in '02. Takayama got the GHC because there was such a buzz about him, and (to no surprise) Ogawa with the GHC was a disaster of almost Yasuda like proportions.

[MikeCampbell]

So how did this all start? Who were the key players in pushing Japanese wrestling in this direction? Was it calculated or something more organic?

It starts with Antonio Inoki. His fetish with pro wrestlers being seen as legit fighters, and him having worked "Different style fights" against legit fighters goes all the way back to the 70's.

[Loss]

I understand that. I mean, what specific decision did Antonio Inoki make that started all of this? What was the very first fight like this, and what was the rationale at the time? Did the wrestlers who were asked to do this object? I'm assuming internal turmoil in New Japan over it, because I can't imagine Choshu supporting the idea.

[FLIK]

Again, not quite. Nagata wasn't IWGP Champion when Cro Cop KO'd him, although he was on the verge of it

Ah yeah, you're right, got my timeline mixed up. He was going to win it but on the New Years show he lost vs Cro Cop so Yasuda got the title instead because he beat Lebanner in his fight on the same show.

 

Who were the key players in pushing Japanese wrestling in this direction?

Inoki. Period

 

I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole Takayama deal. I know that NJPW brought him in to challenge Nagata on the strength of his PRIDE fights, so that Nagata could beat a "real fighter." It happened to coincide with Takayama becoming one of the best workers in Japan, but I don't specifically know if that's why they kept booking him and gave him the big push in the G1 in '02.

They were crazy about anyone with legit fighting skills at this time and he was they best of them all. The Inoki-ism MMA fetish wouldn't have been so bad if most of the guys who got pushes off it weren't shit workers. It wasn't just NJPW guys doing MMA during this time frame but a lot of MMA guys doing wrestling too to mixed results, Frye was a regular, Enson Inoue, Bas Rutten, Josh Barnett, etc... I forget what year it was but they wanted Ken Shamrock for the G1 really bad but it fell apart for some reason (injury?).

[Loss]

Who were the key players in pushing Japanese wrestling in this direction?

Inoki. Period

Inoki had power in New Japan since its inception. What is it about this time period that made it happen here?

[FLIK]

I mean, what specific decision did Antonio Inoki make that started all of this? What was the very first fight like this, and what was the rationale at the time? Did the wrestlers who were asked to do this object? I'm assuming internal turmoil in New Japan over it, because I can't imagine Choshu supporting the idea.

Hash/Ogawa was the start of it I think.

 

I know it pissed Mutoh off and was atleast part of the reason he left & took Kojima & the rest with him to All Japan. Shortly after that happened Choshu was out of the company too.

[FLIK]

Who were the key players in pushing Japanese wrestling in this direction?

Inoki. Period

Inoki had power in New Japan since its inception. What is it about this time period that made it happen here?

 

Pride & K1 got hot, he wanted to capatilise.

Kind of the same way worked shoot UWF was hot a few years earlier so they wanted in on that.

[jdw]

Good lord... why did I click on this thread. It was painful enough to live through that period. Who wants to have that scab peeled back off.

 

John

[Loss]

I'm sure it was bad. It was also pretty important. I'm just trying to get a narrative of the order of big events, rationale behind each move and who was used, and what is the most historically significant.

[jdw]

It is important. Just painful.

 

John

[Bix]

It is important. Just painful.

 

John

There was still a lot of great wrestling it you knew where to look but the destruction of New Japan was awful.

[jdw]

There was still a lot of great wrestling it you knew where to look but the destruction of New Japan was awful.

I think almost all of is was depressing on some level:

 

The decline of All Japan had been going on for some time, and there didn't seem to be anyone young coming up to sustain it. Given how long it took NOAH to develop their next generation (i.e. guys beyond Jun) and the relative success of them, if the split hadn't taken place that all would have been in AJPW and been depressing: Kobashi's injuries, Jun not stepping up, Misawa falling apart, Kawada & Taue teaming forever... blah.

 

The decline of Joshi was hard. There no doubt were pockets of "fun" and "good" and "great", but with all the talent split up and things being on such a smaller level, it really felt doomed long run.

 

UWF-style died, a combo of the move towards MMA and also the promotions shooting themselves in the foot.

 

The promotions behind them... FMW thrilled FMW fans for a while, but it eventually had to feel doomed to even them. Bat-Bat?

 

Just a lot of decline.

 

New Japan was the worst, probably because they were the one best positioned not to go off the cliff if they weren't insane. But... Inoki went fucking insane.

 

John

[rzombie1988]

Joshi had a bad 1997/1998 but even with all the new promotions and splits, they still had alot of good things going on. Still alot of talent and lots of shows. I actually really enjoyed AJW post-split. 2005 was the death knell of Joshi with GAEA and AJW closing. No one seemed to learn much from it until a few years ago when IR got hot and new girls started to pop up. Then NEO dies and things get bad again. Currently, Stardom probably has the best ideas and the best promotion going forward, but Joshi is a niche of a niche and people don't need wrestling right now. One of my friends hit over 100 shows during one of the hotter years but probably isn't going to clear 15 at the current rate.

 

NJPW to me was at its worst in 2003/2004 with all the MMA stuff. I don't even want to go into the Sasaki/Fujita debacle.

 

I don't think PRIDE hurt Takada's career. It made him relevant again and he's still famous now.

[FLIK]

2005 was the death knell of Joshi with GAEA and AJW closing

It's funny because even then ppl complained that it wasn't what it once was but joshi would kill now to be at the lvls they were in 05. AJW had been on the heavy death march since 03 so it wasn't a totall surprise when they collapsed, GAEA was still drawing well & putting on good shows so it came out of nowhere when they threw in the towell however.

 

and people don't need wrestling right now

I sorta disagree. I think they don't need as much wrestling but there's still enough fans & enough talent to support 2 or 3 strong companies, it's when shit got splintered into 8 or 9 that it all went to hell.

[ohtani's jacket]

So how did this all start? Who were the key players in pushing Japanese wrestling in this direction? Was it calculated or something more organic?

Inoki only became directly involved after Dream Stage Entertainment took over PRIDE. They reached a business agreement prior to PRIDE 9 for Inoki to supply New Japan wrestlers for PRIDE fights. That was in May or June of 2000. PRIDE basically started when a guy named Xavier Cullars promoted a fight between Rickson Gracie and Nobuhiko Takada in October of 1997. Takada and Anjoh had called Gracie out several times back when UWF-i was at the height of its drawing power and Gracie was Vale Tudo Japan champion, which led to the infamous "fight" between Gracie and Anjoh in Gracie's LA gym where Anjoh got his ass kicked. This turned Gracie into a sensation in Japan and eventually Takada and Gracie had their fight which Gracie won.

 

Sakuraba's rise happened by accident. At the time he was wrestling with the other UWF-i workers in the Kingdom promotion that rose out of UWF-i's closure. Anjoh and Kanehara signed on to compete in the UFC Japan show in December 1997, but Kanehara was injured in training and Sakuraba took his place. His fight ended with a ref mistake and to make a long story short he got a rematch as the final of the tournament they were particpating in due to an injury to the other finalist and he manged to win the rematch. And that's how Sakuraba got started.

 

Pro-wrestler vs. shooter was very much the drawing point of the early PRIDE shows and in particular pro-wrestling vs. Gracie jiu-jitsu. Later on it became more of an MMA promotion and shat all over Japanese wrestling with its superior matchmaking, title fights and production values.

[gordi]

I mean, what specific decision did Antonio Inoki make that started all of this? What was the very first fight like this, and what was the rationale at the time? Did the wrestlers who were asked to do this object? I'm assuming internal turmoil in New Japan over it, because I can't imagine Choshu supporting the idea.

Hash/Ogawa was the start of it I think.

 

I know it pissed Mutoh off and was atleast part of the reason he left & took Kojima & the rest with him to All Japan. Shortly after that happened Choshu was out of the company too.

 

Yeah. Interestingly enough I have just recently had a couple of conversations with Japanese dudes around my age who were right into Pro Wrestling and/or MMA around that time and Hash vs. Ogawa definitely came up as a thing where Ogawa using UWF-style legit strikes got over like Grover driving a Range Rover through a field of sweet clover. My understanding is that it wasn't just Inoki's insane "Pro Wrestling is a martial art" obsession but also that the fans really ate it up at that time in that situation which in turn presumably pushed Inoki's madness into "If a martial artist can get over in a pro wrestling setting, then surely pro wrestlers can also get over in an MMA setting.

 

For the yearbooks, the following MMA matches should probably be considered for inclusion if you want to take a look at Inoki's insanity in action:

 

Shinsuke vs. Daniel Gracie from Bom Ba Ye 2002

 

Nakanishi vs. Fujita and Shinsuke ve. Jan Nortje from Ultimate Crush 2003

 

Cro Cop vs. Nagata from Bom Ba Ye 2001 and Cro Cop vs. Dos Caras from PRIDE Bushido 1 (2003)

 

Sapp vs. Tamura from PRIDE 21 (2002)

 

Takayama vs Frye and vs. Sapp from 2002 and also perhaps vs. Fujita and vs. Schilt (both 2001)

 

and Saku vs. Conan Silveira from UFC Ultimate Japan 1 (1997) would be interesting to show the start of his story (which is by far the best thing to come out of the Pro wrestling/MMA mix-up, I'd say)!

 

Also, Takada vs. Rickson Gracie from PRIDE 1 and PRIDE 4 and his (reputedly) worked bout with Mark Coleman from PRIDE 5 (97, 98, 99 respectively) all help tell the story of how MMA in Japan was grown from pro wrestling roots!

 

There's tons more, but that's a start!

 

So how did this all start? Who were the key players in pushing Japanese wrestling in this direction? Was it calculated or something more organic?

Inoki only became directly involved after Dream Stage Entertainment took over PRIDE. They reached a business agreement prior to PRIDE 9 for Inoki to supply New Japan wrestlers for PRIDE fights. That was in May or June of 2000. PRIDE basically started when a guy named Xavier Cullars promoted a fight between Rickson Gracie and Nobuhiko Takada in October of 1997. Takada and Anjoh had called Gracie out several times back when UWF-i was at the height of its drawing power and Gracie was Vale Tudo Japan champion, which led to the infamous "fight" between Gracie and Anjoh in Gracie's LA gym where Anjoh got his ass kicked. This turned Gracie into a sensation in Japan and eventually Takada and Gracie had their fight which Gracie won.

 

Sakuraba's rise happened by accident. At the time he was wrestling with the other UWF-i workers in the Kingdom promotion that rose out of UWF-i's closure. Anjoh and Kanehara signed on to compete in the UFC Japan show in December 1997, but Kanehara was injured in training and Sakuraba took his place. His fight ended with a ref mistake and to make a long story short he got a rematch as the final of the tournament they were particpating in due to an injury to the other finalist and he manged to win the rematch. And that's how Sakuraba got started.

 

Pro-wrestler vs. shooter was very much the drawing point of the early PRIDE shows and in particular pro-wrestling vs. Gracie jiu-jitsu. Later on it became more of an MMA promotion and shat all over Japanese wrestling with its superior matchmaking, title fights and production values.

 

What oj says here is very much the sense I got from my conversations on the topic as well. Also, I have been re-reading evilclown's MMA book and it seems to support both what oj says here and FLIK's contention that Hash vs. Ogawa was the tipping point. It would be damned interesting to include a look at aspects of the pro wrestling/MMA crossover in the yearbooks even if I agree with jdw that it's gonna be like peeling back a scab!

 

Yoshida vs. Ogawa at PRIDE Shockwave 2005 was probably the apotheosis of the "MMA is pro wrestling" era in Japan, since it seems to have been understood as "Pro Wrestling/Judo (Ogawa) vs. MMA/Judo (Yoshida) and the pre-fight promotion included Ogawa paying a visit to Hashimoto's grave to pay respects and the post-fight included Ogawa doing "The Hustle" on a broken ankle!