The WTF!?! Have they lost their minds?! thread

[Jingus]

The underlying story here to me is a WWE guy went over someone who is now considered a UFC fighter. Holy crap you mean the UFC isn't as tough as the WWE by golly we should watch more WWE!

That's useless for attracting non-wrestling-fans, though. They'll just say "you know they paid Brock to lose that match, it's all fake crap" and such.

[Loss]

"Who Paid Brock To Take A Dive?" would be an ... interesting ... storyline.

[Bob Morris]

What we should also be disappointed about is that we never got the proper payoff for the Valentine face turn. I can remember Earthquake ambushing Valentine during a match with Bravo, with Furface coming out to make the save. Furface, of course, was Brutus Beefcake, meaning it was inevitable he would unmask and reveal himself, thus the original Dream Team was reunited and set to face Bravo and Earthquake in a grudge match, with Lucuious Johnny V to manage them against Jimmy Hart, who called Bravo and Earthquake the Real Dream Team.

 

It would have been WWF's answer tp Cornette's Midnight Express versus Paul E.'s Midnight Express.

 

Sadly, Beefcake wasn't yet cleared to wrestle so Valentine got squashed by Earthquake. Life is so unfair, sometimes.

[Bob Morris]

On a more serious note, since IRS and SummerSlam were brought up, I didn't think it made any sense for him to go over 1-2-3 Kid at SummerSlam 93 at a time when the Kid was getting into a groove as the underdog babyface... especially when WWF started building a feud between Kid and Shawn Michaels for the I-C title.

 

True, it ended up being Razor Ramon getting the I-C belt and IRS being fed to him, but that had more to do with the fact that Shawn had been suspended. While I do suspect the WWF was planning to push Ramon to the I-C title at some point, as things were built to SummerSlam, IRS had just been thrust back into the midcard and it sure didn't seem like the WWF had any plans for him, leading me to suspect he was just going to be the next guy who takes an upset loss to the Kid.

[jdw]

It's scary how much you know about the WWF.

I suspect that a lot of us would find it scary how much you know about Yasujiro Ozu.

 

John

[jdw]

The underlying story here to me is a WWE guy went over someone who is now considered a UFC fighter. Holy crap you mean the UFC isn't as tough as the WWE by golly we should watch more WWE!

That's useless for attracting non-wrestling-fans, though. They'll just say "you know they paid Brock to lose that match, it's all fake crap" and such.

 

Yeah. MMA fans wouldn't give a shit. And even WWE fans know that the WWE is fake, and Brock left the real stuff to comeback to the fake stuff.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

You would shake your head sadly if you asked me how Misawa or Kawada matches I've seen in my life.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome. Never, ever change. Always be Matt D.

 

I suspect that a lot of us would find it scary how much you know about Yasujiro Ozu.

I actually don't know that much about Ozu outside of his films, but I have been to his grave so I guess that's something.

[jdw]

That would be similar to Matt with the WWF: he knows the "films" a/k/a the matches and storylines.

 

John

[Mr Wrestling X]

I've just thought of another one - WWE splitting the Hart Dynasty within a few months of them reaching the pinnacle of the tag team division. I was reminded of this horrendous booking decision after checking out a video of Tyson Kidd's awesome new finisher ("The Dungeon Lock" - tube it). This team was massively over following the Hart/McMahon Wrestlemania XXVI storyline. By autumn of that year, they had been eliminated from a tag team invitational by the Uso's for the tag team titles (which was eventually won by Cody Rhodes and Drew McIntyre) and were split as a team. In fact, the brief feud that followed between Smith and Kidd was so brief that it's hard to even class it as a feud. Smith then disappeared from WWE TV for an extended period of time whilst Kidd was trapped on Superstars and NXT (where he still remains, although there is promise that a promotion to one of the main shows is on the cards). The other member of the Dynasty - Natalya, fared better, being paired with Beth Phoenix and booked as the dominant focus of the Diva's division, although she has since been lumbered with a questionale flatulence gimmick.

 

It's absolutely boggling as to why WWE just waved away an over team of two young men that had so much potential, not to mention that they were both trained in the Hart Dungeon, have performed around the world prior to being signed by WWE and the fact that Harry Smith is also the son of Davey Boy Smith and a third generation wrestler as Stu Hart is his grandfather.

[sek69]

I always got the impression Vince sometimes randomly hates the Hart family. Maybe he took it out on them that the WM angle with Bret went off the rails so badly. I just recall when they broke the team up there seemed to be a lot of blind item "well someone must have fucked up bad to warrant this reaction" comments in the WON.

[Mr Wrestling X]

I always got the impression Vince sometimes randomly hates the Hart family.

Indeed, it's certainly a possibility that some bad blood is left over despite Bret and Vince seemingly burying the hatchet. If this is true, it's ironic considering that the Hart family have made Vince a huge amount of money over the years.

 

 

I just recall when they broke the team up there seemed to be a lot of blind item "well someone must have fucked up bad to warrant this reaction" comments in the WON.

That's pretty much the standard response to any unexpected demotion in wrestling until the truth emerges, although there doesn't seem to have been any emerging truth on why this team were dropped so badly.

 

It's possible, this is only a possibility though, that Harry Smith had been quite open about his desire to compete in MMA during the Dynasty's push. This may have stirred up people the wrong way and WWE has been very careful about handing out pushes since Brock Lensar decided that he wanted to be an NFL player in 2004 and Bobby Lashley left in 2008 and went on to become an MMA fighter and wrestle for TNA. Both these men were pushed massively (Lashley not as much as Lesnar, but that could be down to WWE treading carefully since Lesnar) in a relatively short time only to decide that they wanted to do other things.

[sek69]

It's clear one of the worst things anyone employed by WWE can ever do is show interest in anything else other than wrestling. If you don't live pro wrestling 24/7 it seems to be highly offensive.

[Jingus]

It's clear one of the worst things anyone employed by WWE can ever do is show interest in anything else other than wrestling. If you don't live pro wrestling 24/7 it seems to be highly offensive.

And on the other hand, they don't want any of their non-wrestler employees to know anything about wrestling and consider them to be a mark if they do.

[Mr Wrestling X]

It's clear one of the worst things anyone employed by WWE can ever do is show interest in anything else other than wrestling. If you don't live pro wrestling 24/7 it seems to be highly offensive.

And on the other hand, they don't want any of their non-wrestler employees to know anything about wrestling and consider them to be a mark if they do.

 

Add to these the fact that WWE doesn't consider itself "wrestling" from a branding perspective and here we have some great examples of the legendary contradictions that exist within WWE.

[sek69]

Kind of like how they hold a grudge against Rock for going to Hollywood and actually becoming a fairly successful action star, yet continue to pump money into their own studio that churns out flop after horrible flop.

[Mr Wrestling X]

It's ridiculous...

 

- WWE stresses the importance of getting over, but then wrestlers get heat for "going into business for themselves"

- They hire wrestlers because of their in-ring ability, but then have them tone way back and their strengths are lost in the shuffle

- They seem to love when wrestlers abide by kayfabe outside of the ring, yet they balk at wrestling tradition

- They praise those that engage with the fans, but get pissed when they come across as too engage (bending kayfabe) on social networking sites

[Jason Mann]

I've just thought of another one - WWE splitting the Hart Dynasty within a few months of them reaching the pinnacle of the tag team division. I was reminded of this horrendous booking decision after checking out a video of Tyson Kidd's awesome new finisher ("The Dungeon Lock" - tube it). This team was massively over following the Hart/McMahon Wrestlemania XXVI storyline. By autumn of that year, they had been eliminated from a tag team invitational by the Uso's for the tag team titles (which was eventually won by Cody Rhodes and Drew McIntyre) and were split as a team.

The breakup was pretty random, but I hardly recall them being massively over. Without Bret they got almost no reaction despite getting a decent push.

[flyonthewall2983]

That whole thing makes me wonder about Bret's position in the company if/once they all get their pink (possibly written in black ink) slips. A small, very cynical part of me is thinking all the forgiving he's done has been a work to get them in good graces with Vince.

[Mr Wrestling X]

The breakup was pretty random, but I hardly recall them being massively over. Without Bret they got almost no reaction despite getting a decent push.

Oh to be sure, they weren't Edge and Christian or the Hardy Boys, but they were very over in the weeks leading up to and after their WWE Unified Tag Team Championship win over Big Show and The Miz. The reaction to the winning the titles, in particular was massive, I will say that Bret played a big part in them initially getting over, but following this they remained pretty popular due to several factors such as nostalgia, their wrestling ability and the consensus that they were the going to be the face of WWE's tag team division.

 

That whole thing makes me wonder about Bret's position in the company if/once they all get their pink (possibly written in black ink) slips. A small, very cynical part of me is thinking all the forgiving he's done has been a work to get them in good graces with Vince.

I doubt it, I think that Bret genuinely missed the WWE atmosphere and was itching to make a return in some capacity. He probably saw the chance to assist the Hart Dynasty as part of his return, but I think the main factors in the "forgiving" came down to Bret wanting to make money and satisfy the itch left over from the wrestling bug's bite after being away from the place where he made a name for himself for so long. But Hart and McMahon had buried the hatchet to some extent as far back as 04-05 as they decided to make a DVD and Bret agreed to be inducted (and turn up and make a speech) into the HOF.

 

Some people speculate that the Montreal "screw job" is actually the greatest work in pro-wrestling history and that Hart and McMahon were the only ones who knew the truth and everyone else involved was played. I mean several arguments could be made as to why this is the truth, I've thought about it myself...

 

- WWF is on the verge of collapse as WCW is destroying them in the ratings and have a tremendous source of finance (Ted Turner)

- Vince comes up with a plan to turn things around and he goes to Bret with his ideas. They both agree that Bret should accept WCW's constant big money offers as it will give Bret a huge payoff in the short term and will probably not help WCW in the long term, an assumption based upon their erratic booking history.

- Vince decides to step away from commentating and make himself a character in his own promotion, he and Bret plan the Montreal scenario whilst everyone else is given the story that the match will end in a double DQ and Bret will surrender the title on the following Raw. Vince then recruits his "participants" and explains to them that they are going to screw Bret by changing the finish of the match without his knowledge (which isn't true).

- The "screw job" occurs and after some rehearsed backstage drama, Bret leaves and goes to WCW.

- WWF garners a large amount of attention following the angle and Vince finally has the opportunity to rebuild his product by using himself as a character to elevate new megafaces like Steve Austin, Mick Foley and eventually The Rock.

- WWF finally defeats WCW in the ratings and gains control of the Monday Night Wars.

- Meanwhile, Bret is laughing because WCW are paying him a ridiculous amount of money to work a limited schedule and they also allow him a level of creative control, where he can continue to work in a main event position without worrying about the rug being pulled from under him.

 

If a scenario like this is the real truth, then nobody knows. I think that Vince and Bret were on reasonable terms as early as a year following the screwjob if it was a shoot, where the general consensus lies, but their relationship was strained again by the tragic death of Owen Hart which many members of the Hart family blame McMahon for. If the "screw job" was indeed a work, then the falling out between Hart and McMahon would surely be down to the Owen Hart tragedy and the way the WWF handled it, particulary the fact that Vince chose to continue with the show, despite the accident and the live announcement that Hart had died. Needless to say, Hart and McMahon probably still have some issues with each other, but don't let it get in the way for the sake of good business relations.

[artDDP]

What about Starrcade '96? Hogan becomes the hottest heel in wrestling, leading the hottest stable in wrestling, and loses to a part-timer in a non-title match.

In typical WCW fashion, they never said it was a title match or a non-title match until SECONDS before the match began in order to bait-and-switch people into ordering the PPV. Also, the angle was that Piper demanded this match and chose the stipulations - meaning he apparently requested a non-title match.

 

Wasn't the storyline at the time that Piper just wanted the one match to prove he could beat Hogan? I do agree that waiting until the match itself to announce it was non-title was typical WCW.

[Loss]

After the match even.

[Bix]

Mr Wrestling X:

 

- WWE tried to frame the wrongful death lawsuit as being something Bret pushed for because he was bitter about the screwjob. If it was a work he would've said so then. Everyone said under oath that it wasn't a work.

- Vince initially tried to babyface himself on TV after the Screwjob. It failed miserably.

 

It was not a work. Bret has actually said somewhat recently that if Vince came to him with the idea of doing a finish like that where it was a work, especially to set up a possible return when his WCW deal was up, he would've considered it, but there's no way what happened was a work.

[Bix]

After the match even.

Yup. They never said it was a title match, but they never made it clear that it was non-title and there was no way to be sure unless you were a newsletter reader. The only bad thing about what's otherwise one of the best PPVs ever.

[cm funk]

Harry Smith must have rubbed some people the wrong way backstage. Long before the Hart Dynasty stuff, the way they put him on TV knowing he'd failed a drug test just to make an example out of him was really sketchy. They wouldn't have done that to anybody they really liked and were high on. Also, I'm sure they weren't eager to forgive and forget about Diana Hart's tell-all book, and Davey was a legendary prick, maybe Harry was just paying for the sins of his mother and father.

 

Also, none of the Hart Dynasty were good talkers, which I'm sure had them getting buried by Kevin Dunn and people of his ilk backstage.

 

Tyson Kidd seems to be in good standing and it looked like him and Justin Gabriel were due for a little push as a team before Gabriel got hurt.

[flyonthewall2983]

For some reason I always remembered during the build-up to Piper-Hogan, that it was a non-title match, just a one-time deal to "settle the score".