Cena/Lesnar

[Slasher]

Ok, I've seen the match get praised everywhere. I even ordered the show on demand due to the praise. I felt a little let down by it in general, which I think I mentioned in a thread somewhere here recently. However, I want to keep an open mind, so please... anyone/everyone, sell me on the match's greatness. What am I missing? I thought the spectacle of it was awesome, but the actual in-ring work I felt was very lackadaisical, so have at it.

[El-P]

What am I missing? I thought the spectacle of it was awesome, but the actual in-ring work I felt was very lackadaisical, so have at it.

You're not missing anything, that's it. Great spectacle. As far as pure work goes... not so great, but that really wasn't the point. It was meant to be an awesome spectacle, and it succeeded in that respect in more ways than I thought it would. Brock was a great heel, Cena did what he does best, which is sell. That's all there is to it really, but that's enough to make it a great wrestling moment to me.

Maybe it doesn't hold up on rewatch though. Now that the excitement over Brock has, well, dropped dead, and knowing the retardation of the finish (and what followed) may hurt the perception of the match in retrospect. I dunno. It looked great when it happened.

[Slasher]

Well I will be fair and point out the real push for me to start this topic was reading in the Hogan/Cena thread on how Cena produces better matches, and Loss cited the Lesnar match as a better match than anything Hogan had put out. If the match was merely a spectacle, wouldn't that mean it does not rate above spectacles like the Andre match or Warrior?

[Loss]

My post after you started this thread motivated you to start this thread?

[Slasher]

I started this thread about 19 minutes after you posted in the Cena-Hogan thread. And I do not mean to sound like I am trying to criticize your post to begin with. I am just curious about the whole thing, that's all.

 

Edit: This is the post I am referring to:

 

I don't really care about breaking down wrestlers like this. I'm more interested in the matches (the output). I don't put nearly as much stock in a list of a person's list of attributes as I do a list of their best matches. (Yes, I realize there are exceptions to this.)

 

But based on that, for me, it's Cena, by far. Hogan is an underrated wrestler, but has never had a great match. Lots of really good ones, lots of historic ones, lots of fun ones. But nothing like Cena/Umaga, Cena/Michaels, Cena/Punk or Cena/Lesnar.

[Loss]

Sorry, I saw "yesterday" on the date/time stamp in your post and thought the thread was older. My mistake.

 

The match is not merely a spectacle, although that is a big part of it. I haven't seen Hogan work a match that was that stiff or bloody ever. I'm not someone who thinks Hogan has to do that to be better than Cena, as I haven't seen Shawn Michaels do that either, and I'd rank him above Cena. I'm just pointing out what makes that match work.

 

If you look at Hogan's spectacles, how many of them are because of specific things Hogan is doing during the match? And how many of them are because the buildup was strong, he had a great ring entrance and people were already invested in him before the match started? Hogan at his peak could take a nap mid ring and get a big pop. Cena has nothing that looks as ridiculous as Hogan's leg shaking sell of a bodyslam, and has never had a move that looked as bad as Andre reversing the piledriver on the floor at Wrestlemania.

[Slasher]

Sorry, I saw "yesterday" on the date/time stamp in your post and thought the thread was older. My mistake.

 

The match is not merely a spectacle, although that is a big part of it. I haven't seen Hogan work a match that was that stiff or bloody ever. I'm not someone who thinks Hogan has to do that to be better than Cena, as I haven't seen Shawn Michaels do that either, and I'd rank him above Cena. I'm just pointing out what makes that match work.

 

If you look at Hogan's spectacles, how many of them are because of specific things Hogan is doing during the match? And how many of them are because the buildup was strong, he had a great ring entrance and people were already invested in him before the match started? Hogan at his peak could take a nap mid ring and get a big pop. Cena has nothing that looks as ridiculous as Hogan's leg shaking sell of a bodyslam, and has never had a move that looked as bad as Andre reversing the piledriver on the floor at Wrestlemania.

Thanks. I think I am cleared up now on that.

[Dylan Waco]

The match is a tremendous underdog v. monster match, with multiple great visuals, double juice which is a true rarity in this day and age, a totally unique feel with stiff/nasty shots that blurred the line between fact and fiction, a couple of really wild bumps, great selling and a finish that (regardless of whether or not you felt it was ill advised) was believable and fit the matches story. I know some aren't enamored with it, but I thought it was transcendental great on first watch and the second watch only enhanced that feeling.

[ohtani's jacket]

I finally got around to watching this and I guess the answer was that it was just different from a typical WWE match with Lesnar bringing the quasi-shoot style stuff and working stiffer than expected. It was kind of a one note match, but not bad. I thought it started off well and lost steam when Brock started bringing the ringpost and steel steps into play. Cena getting zero offense and then winning with a steel chain wrapped round his fist and a single finisher on the steps was kind of weird, but Brock winning would've been equally weird after beating the crap out of Cena for the entire match. I'm not sure I'd call it a spectacle since it wasn't that spectacular compared to say your typical Undertaker/Triple H/Shawn Michaels Wrestlemania extravaganza, at least in terms of how things operate in the WWE Universe, but it was certainly different.

[Childs]

I could see it losing a little luster with age, because part of the excitement in real time was that I had no idea what the fuck was going to happen. And OJ is correct that part of that flowed from it being so different than the typical WWE main event.

 

But this was my initial reaction: Left me buzzing like no WWE match in ages. How often do you get the aura of real violence -- Ishikawa/Ikeda, Lucha mask vs. match, Tenryu-Hashimoto violence -- in the WWE? Brock's overall performance was awesome; I loved the little touches like him deadlifting Charles Robinson with one hand and him stepping on Cena's hand and scoffing the first time Cena went for the chain. And all props to Cena for letting that scary motherfucker bust him up and working a hell of a match from the bottom. I didn't know if we'd get a WWE match this year to contend with Finlay's best, Panther-Casas or the Santito match. But this was right up there for me.

 

Edit: I thought about this more, and on the other hand, the match might hold up really well because it was so simple. Basically, you had a scary heel legitimately roughing up the face of the company, who endured and sold a terrible beating long enough to cash in on his one window of opportunity. That's a classic wrestling story and obviously connected with the live crowd in a big way. When I think back on matches I love from 20 and 30 years ago, they often fit a similar description, with the physical grace of the work taking a back seat.

[Matt D]

I do wish I knew who came up with the idea to use the stairs.

[cm funk]

I haven't re-watched it yet, but in real time it was pretty epic

[Coffey]

I am of the opinion that the wrong finish can completely kill a match. This match awesome. Then John Cena won. So, welp.

 

I really liked the body of the match. I like how it was worked. It was making John Cena a sympathetic babyface again, instead of a guy that just divides crowds. Brock was re-established as a no-nonsense ass-kicking killing machine. Then John Cena just wins and goes back to being the 50/50 guy and Brock becomes just another guy.

 

If that match plays out the exact same way and you just have Brock reverse the AA into an F5 things would be a lot different. Not just in that match but with everything WWE has been doing for the last couple weeks.

 

Instead we get bullshit fucking arguments like "well Cena can't lose multiple PPVs in a row!" so he just loses to fucking Johnny Ace instead so he can move into another feud with The Big Show that NOBODY wants to see. UGH.

 

Anyone that still thinks Cena winning that match was the right decision is a moron. I'm sorry.

 

That is the match that I will point to from now on whenever I want proof to show someone that WWE doesn't know what the fuck they are doing.

[Childs]

That's an argument against the booking, not the performance, which is the subject of this thread. If the booking killed the match for you, that's fine, but that's not a useful analysis of what Cena did in the match.

[Dylan Waco]

This from a guy who thinks Savage v. Hogan at Mania was high end shit? I'd be hard pressed to think of a match with a less satisfying and more epic "fuck everything that previously happened to hell" finish.

 

One can easily argue that Brock shouldn't have lost his first match, but the finish of the match in the context in which the match actually existed made FAR more sense than Brock reversing something into an F5. I admit that Brock v. Zack Gowen was a memorable match because of the visual imagery, but I can't see any good reason for Brock v. Cena to be a repeat of that unless you just have a visceral hatred for Cena and the potentially sado-sexual imagery of such a finish appeals to your inner perv.

 

I get why people think Brock should have won and I get why that would hurt peoples enjoyment of the match. But Cena getting buried in an epic squash with no comeback at the end would not have been a better match.

[El-P]

Cena winning *in the context of the match* doesn't bother me. As a one night stand, I thought it was awesome from start to finish. In context, the finish is totally retarded of course.

 

Hogan hulking up at WM 5 and shitting on Savage's elbow and rolling up the match in one big boot and one legdrop really kills the match to me.

[Matt D]

I really like Savage's work in Savage vs Hogan and the general layout. But yes, I hate the finish. To cap off the year's worth of story, it's good, but then they needed Savage as their top heel for the next two years, basically, so yeah.

 

Granted, the addition of Sherri was huge. I especially love the short period between when he took on Sherri and when he got the crown and became a real parody of himself.

[Loss]

Dave's suggested finish of Liz throwing something in Hogan's eyes leading to a Savage pin at WM would have been huge. Also, Savage was so hot as champion at that point -- drawing big money -- that it didn't make sense for him to lose yet. It was too soon.

 

So yeah, Hogan/Savage has the same problem as Brock/Cena from that perspective. Even more so, actually, since Savage was showing a lot of life at the gate.

[Dylan Waco]

Cena winning *in the context of the match* doesn't bother me. As a one night stand, I thought it was awesome from start to finish. In context, the finish is totally retarded of course.

In the broader context it was fucking idiotic to sign a guy to such a huge contract when there are only a few guys you could reasonably work him against from a perception perspective. A part of me wishes they had booked him in a dominant win against Punk first only to see how net fans would have reacted to their boy getting steamrolled. Realistically the only full timers Brock can work are Cena, Punk, Orton and maybe Sheamus. Everything else feels like a massive stretch for one reason or the other. Of those four one guy is not totally established due to idiot booking, the other is a shit draw particularly as a face, Punk is in theory the champ they are trying to build as a potential long term ace all be it in a backhanded way...and then there is Cena. Henry would have been a GREAT first ppv opponent for Brock before they cut his balls off as it would have meant a lot to convincingly beat him and would not have been giving away one of the bigger "name" match ups out the gate.

 

Given the obvious problems with signing a guy like Brock to such a huge contract in the first place I'm just thankful I got one awesome match out of it

[cm funk]

If you separate the match and the finish itself there is absolutely nothing wrong with it in context. I really liked the story they told, and I like the WWE's franchise guy beating the UFC turncoat.

 

But the follow up with Brock and Cena's characters after the match, holy shit it's been awful.

 

Like I said before the match, as soon as they booked it for the PPV 4 weeks after WM they'd wasted Brock. Once that was done, there was nothing wrong with the way the booking went. But if Brock was going to lose they needed an exceptional follow up in the booking, and we didn't get that, they totally dropped the ball and fell back into all of their usual bad habits with Cena and HHH.

[Matt D]

If they really wanted Sheamus to be THE GUY, then this was probably their chance.

 

I think with the right presentation almost anyone could work in the ring with a guy like Lesnar. You just need to write it carefully and build it smartly. If they wanted to turn Ziggler face for some reason, for instance, I think it could have worked with Brock.

[cm funk]

People bring up Punk and Bryan as potential opponents for Brock but personally I wouldn't really buy either of them having any chance against Brock. I can buy Cena beating Brock in the way that he did, but a 260 lb quick as a cat heavyweight against guys who barely weigh 200 lbs? It's like putting GSP in there with Brock, skill only goes so far. A Brock-Punk match that wasn't 10 minutes of Brock wiping the mat with him and Punk unable to generate any offense would be a disappointment

[Jingus]

People bring up Punk and Bryan as potential opponents for Brock but personally I wouldn't really buy either of them having any chance against Brock. I can buy Cena beating Brock in the way that he did, but a 260 lb quick as a cat heavyweight against guys who barely weigh 200 lbs? It's like putting GSP in there with Brock, skill only goes so far. A Brock-Punk match that wasn't 10 minutes of Brock wiping the mat with him and Punk unable to generate any offense would be a disappointment

Why? This isn't MMA, it's fake. Guys in wrestling routinely wrestle opponents twice their size or more, and often the smaller guy wins, and the crowd never has a problem buying it.

[FLIK]

Brock/Eddie worked perfectly fine.

[Loss]

I wouldn't buy Bryan beating Lesnar, but I would buy Lesnar vs Bryan, just to see how they pulled it off. I don't need to have questions over the outcome every time out to be interested in seeing a match.