HOF nonsense thread

[Loss]

It's hard to say. Frey had more ability to spend money. Watts was not brought in with the goal of competing with the WWF. A lot of the decisions he made were because he was told his goal was to cut costs. Cutting costs when trying to compete with the WWF isn't going to work. Watts got losses down to $400,000 for '92, and he did promote one show that did a tremendous buyrate for the time (Halloween Havoc), but Bill Watts being brought in to spend what he needed to spend to make WCW competitive likely would have had different results.

 

It's hard to say if Frey would have been successful or not. WWF scandals at the time probably had a domino effect on all of wrestling's popularity. They may have done better. The junior division thing was his idea for WCW. I don't know how far he was going to go with it, but Bischoff was successful with it a few years later. Frey didn't know a lot about wrestling, but from all accounts was very interested in learning and was getting the hang of it. Frey was also the guy who brought in Jake, who did draw on the one show he headlined under Watts. He brought in Rude and Steamboat. Herd had a big problem keeping talent, and Frey was attracting people to WCW, so he had that as a positive. Watts was the one who got credit for Jake because Jake didn't show up until after Watts was in charge. The wrestlers liked Frey and were motivated to put on good shows because of the best match bonus.

[Cox]

Weren't Rude and Steamboat brought in under the last days of the Herd/Petrick/Rhodes regime? I don't think Frey took over until '92, and Steamboat and Rude were both in WCW by fall '91.

[Loss]

It's possible you're right. I was thinking Herd was released not long after letting Flair go.

 

There are time periods where it's not even clear who was running WCW. I'm not sure if this was one of them.

[JerryvonKramer]

Halloween Phantom has Herd written all over it.

[JerryvonKramer]

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=14271

 

This thread may be of some assistance. We discussed the Herd / Frey timeline there as well.

 

EDIT: At lot of places report Herd being fired in 1992 and replaced there and then with Frey. Is there any reason to believe there was more of a gap?

[Johnny Guitar]

But if you look back, Sting was going to be the guy to carry things when Ric Flair left. And Ric Flair never left.

Shouldn't we look more closely at 92 then?

1992 WCW was fantastic from a wrestling standpoint. Kip Frey was a placeholder for Watts, and Dusty put the title on Sting after building the issue with Luger for a few months. This should have worked better than it did. Rude was probably the hottest heel in all of wrestling during Sting's run, but it was a weird time. While Sting and Rude did have a big house show run, they didn't have a PPV match during this time with Sting defending. Sting, as Jerry mentioned, didn't really get a main event match on PPV. It didn't light the world on fire, but it wasn't going to light the world on fire.

 

WCW was so bad and did so much damage in 1991 that they created a hole that would take a few years to fully dig their way out of. I don't know that they made their situation worse in '92, like they would in '93, but they didn't really make it better either.

 

Really, in '92, Sting was only put in a position to carry the company for about three months. He beat Luger, Rude was groomed for him in the short term, with Vader being groomed for him over summer. He had Cactus as a one-shot deal. I think they could have built up some other guys to make a run at him too.

 

Frey's vision was a good one - and a breath of fresh air compared to Herd - but he didn't have enough time to see it through before Watts came in. Watts is someone who properly understood what was wrong with WCW and prescribed the wrong medicine to fix it. He came in with opinions on talent from 1987 and some of the people he pushed weren't really the best choices. Not just Doc and Gordy, but he also brought back Dick Slater! By early 1993, he was focused more on Barry Windham, Sting and Vader, was bringing Flair back, was pushing Pillman in a more prominent role and was signing some good young guys like Benoit, Scorpio and Regal. I think he was on a better path, but he had burned so many bridges in WCW's corporate structure, and it was painfully clear by that point that it wasn't going to work.

 

I think a big problem was running Battlebowl at Starrcade instead of Sting/Luger. That may have been too soon, but nearly all of Lex's date's were used up and he disappeared for 2 months. Waiting till February lost alot of the momemtum WCW had for Sting/Luger, coming of Clash 17. Which was pretty hot.

 

This era was so great from an in-ring point of view. And there was ton's of potential. Shame it didn't play out longer.

 

Saying that. Everyone had been wanting Watts to come in for years to rescue the company. The fact that he didn't. Wrecked most of the postive stuff that was going on and quit after he was demoted. After he realised he'd made mistake's talent and booking wise and was taking positive steps to correct it. Is also a shame.

[Loss]

I love Watts for trying to do things that a non-wrestling person would never think of that were important, like re-emphasizing matwork and holds. There was a massive re-education effort by announcers during this time that was going to take some time. Also, the top rope thing was just a way to get over top rope stuff. He gets criticized for that, but it was all based on observations that going to the top rope never got the pop it should have and he thought by making it seem like an outlaw thing, he could bring it back in a few months and those moves would be more over again because fans would miss the moves. It ended up having the opposite effect of getting heat on the promotion, but his intentions were good. Again, those are things that would be completely out of the realm of a non-wrestling guy running the company.

[JerryvonKramer]

I reckon Jim Ross has never been happier in his career than during the tag tournament at Great American Bash '92.

 

My (wrong) mental image of that show is Ross quietly rubbing himself at the sight of Gordy and Williams putting on 15-minute chinlocks while Ventura half asleeping wondering about how the hell he ended up in some random civic centre in Georgia.

 

I think 'GAB '92 is as close to "wrestling as a sport" that we'll ever see. Almost feels like Ross and Watts were making some sort of moral point about it.

[Loss]

It's hard to argue that wrestling would be better today if matwork was more over. It was worth putting in the effort, and eventually it would have been. You can condition wrestling fans to accept almost anything if it's made to seem important.

 

As for the rest of your comment ... yeah, not getting into that.

[Victator]

Herd was gone after GAB 91. Steamboat returned in November and Rude in October. Hearing Steamboat talk, Herd being gone is the reason he came back.

[Matt D]

I still think it's crazy how little WCW ventured to New England between 90 and 96. I thought the regional promotion thing wasn't even worth talking about but I find that really striking.

[Loss]

I remember them trying to do a memorable show in New Haven, CT, to heat up Flair/Funk. At Clash 8, when Funk does the hospital promo, that's supposedly based on a match that got out of control in New Haven. They also tried a Clash that year in upstate NY (which I realize isn't quite New England). I don't think the New Haven thing really worked, so maybe that's why they shied away. I'm also curious what kind of building exclusives the WWF had in place in that region during that time period.

[Matt D]

According to the site, they didn't work New York at all in 91 or 92 either.

 

Think about that. For 91/92, how are you a national promotion without working either the Northeast (they worked Jersey and DE and PA of course) or the North-NW (I don't see anything in WA, OR, WY, IH, ND, SD). Also nothing in UT, NV, CO.

 

Just to name a few. As best as I can tell, WWF worked all of these places (give or take the one where the wrestling commission was weird).

[Loss]

They ran a PPV in Denver, CO in 1991.

 

Fargo, ND ended up a huge market for WCW in 1998, so it's weird they didn't run there sooner.

[Johnny Guitar]

I still think it's crazy how little WCW ventured to New England between 90 and 96. I thought the regional promotion thing wasn't even worth talking about but I find that really striking.

I guess it was a combination of drawing and Vince putting the squeeze on arenas not to book WCW.

 

Who know's?

 

Looking through the WCW results at The History of WWE is fascinating, in regards to where they chose to run shows and how often. In their history they promoted in nearly every state in the US at one point or another. In some places they went once and never went back. Some places they went years between visits.

 

They really illustrate the chaotic nature of the company and what a total mess they were at times.

 

Some of the things that struck me:

 

I didn't realise that they managed to kill of The Omni in 93. A show in October drew just 800 paid. The Thanksgiving and Christmas Day shows were subsequently cancelled (although they drew 3000 in Denver on Christmas Day night). They tried running Thanksgiving 94, but that was cancelled. and didn't run again until a Nitro on New's day 96.

 

They didn't run in Baltimore for over 18 months from 93 until Superbrawl 5 in Feb 95(which drew a big house).

 

They didn't run a show in Norfolk for over 18 Months from Mar 94 until World war 3 in November 1995 (which also drew a big crowd).

 

They didn't run a show in Richmond for over 2 years from 94 until a Nitro in Jun 1996.

 

They never ran a show in Greensboro at the Coliseum after 1992 (it was being re-modeled in 1993) and never ran in Greensboro at all after 1 show in 94 at the Coliseum's Special event center. Instead going to the smaller LJM Colisieum in neighbouring Winston Salem for shows.

 

They drew 8000+ for a Nitro in Oct 95 and drew 17000 for a Nitro in Jan 97. But didn't have a single show in Chicago in the interem, despite business picking up.

 

With the exception of SlamBoree 94 which drew nearly 5000. A house show in April 95, which drew just 900 and a house show in jun 96 which drew 5000+. They pretty much avoided Philly between 93 and 97.

 

What amazed me is these are all towns I think, or thought of, as WCW strongholds.

 

WCW 1992 might not have been the best year business wise. But it looks like the Attitude era compared to the latter half of 1993. Business tanked!

 

How Bischoff kept his job I'll never know.

[Dylan Waco]

WCW was a national promotion.

 

We can argue about where they ran or didn't run and the success they did or didn't have. But they had national tv, national coverage in the wrestling magazines and the ability to promote over a huge geographical area that spanned outside of the Southeast. It's possible that ECW had a larger "base" at times late in their run than WCW did at their low point, but does anyone really think ECW was "more" of a national promotion?

 

Hell I think the AWA even as far back as the late 70s/early 80's is damn close to a "national" promotion despite the lack of tv and wrestling coverage when you consider the breadth of their operation (Oakland, Vegas, SLC, Denver, Omaha, Chicago, Twin Cities, Milwaukee, Green Bay, Winnipeg) and the fact that their champ was a "touring" champ

[Johnny Guitar]

I'm not knocking WCW. To me they were a world promotion.

[JerryvonKramer]

I wasn't necessarily knocking them eitherm just trying to be realistic ... the thing I've been driving towards saying is that they never really developed any towns that they didn't take over.

 

What was WCW in 1990? It was JCP + GCW + UWF + Florida.

 

What areas did they really develop outside of those pre-existing territories? It's already been mentioned they failed to break into Texas. They didn't run the west coast, the north west, New England or Tri-State.

 

My point was always that although they made a few random overtures to running towns outside of their core territories, they didn't really go outside of them that much -- not enough at any rate to develop their presence in them.

 

This is kind of ignoring TV, of course, but as far as where and how often they ran shows, they were much closer to being a Southern "super territory" than a truly national outfit.

 

I stand by that claim. Maybe playing Total Extreme Wrestling for as long as I have has made me think about these things differently.

[Dylan Waco]

The problem is if you go by that logic ECW from 98-00 was arguably more of a national territory than WCW until 94. I find that argument very hard to defend.

 

You can't just ignore television. You can't just ignore national wrestling magazine coverage (which pre-internet was a huge deal to all fans in the States).

 

I think the point Loss makes is a better one - WCW was a shitty national promotion. WWF was a good one.

[JerryvonKramer]

Interesting. So if we judge the idea of WCW as a national company by their TV, where does that leave the idea of Sting as a national draw?

[Dylan Waco]

You don't solely judge it by their tv, you just don't ignore it.

 

I have zero problem with someone advancing the argument that Sting was a ratings or buyrate draw - if he was a ratings or buyrates draw. The work can be done and if the case can be made it helps his case. Is it enough to overcome the more general failings of the company when he was ace? I honestly can't see how, unless he was silently one of the great tv draws in wrestling history which is something I find highly unlikely.

[Johnny Guitar]

I wasn't necessarily knocking them eitherm just trying to be realistic ... the thing I've been driving towards saying is that they never really developed any towns that they didn't take over.

 

What was WCW in 1990? It was JCP + GCW + UWF + Florida.

 

What areas did they really develop outside of those pre-existing territories? It's already been mentioned they failed to break into Texas. They didn't run the west coast, the north west, New England or Tri-State.

 

My point was always that although they made a few random overtures to running towns outside of their core territories, they didn't really go outside of them that much -- not enough at any rate to develop their presence in them.

 

This is kind of ignoring TV, of course, but as far as where and how often they ran shows, they were much closer to being a Southern "super territory" than a truly national outfit.

 

I stand by that claim. Maybe playing Total Extreme Wrestling for as long as I have has made me think about these things differently.

They did run those areas though.

 

Baltimore and Philly were WWF towns in the early 80's. Not JCP, and certainly by the early 90's Baltimore was thought of as a WCW town. They were also big in Chicago. Which both them and the WWF took from the AWA.

 

They drew well in places like Amarillo and Corpus Christi in Texas, which was about as far as you could get from Dallas. Which nobody was able to draw in until the end of the decade.

 

They ran tons in the central states which is also out of their "core" territory.

 

It's worth pointing out that whilst the WWF might have run everywhere in the 80's. They didn't draw everywhere in the 80's.

 

Alot of the old territories, especially in the south. Were resiliant to them for along time. It wasn't until the Attitude era that Vince was basically able to go anywhere in the US and draw well.

 

In fact after the bubble burst in the early 90's. The WWF re-treated heavily back into their homebase. For a few years they were more a Northern "super territory".

 

Most of the TV was shot in the north east. Alot of the PPV's too.

[Matt D]

GWF was on ESPN. I watched it when I was a kid. I got pissed off during the baseball expansion draft because it was preempted. Definitely on National TV.

 

On the other hand even where they didn't run at all, I was still able to buy WCW Magazine, trading cards, and action figures as a kid.

[Dylan Waco]

Name the GWF top towns, top stars, number of international tours, coverage in magazines, et.

[Cox]

Name the GWF top towns

Dallas...Dallas...and didn't they run a show in Georgia once? And...Dallas.